hi all a friend of ours has a 10 weeks old jack russell puppy bitch,who bites your fingers or any part of you a wont let go any ideas how to stop this
mandy

a good thing to do is as soon as teeth touch skin is to say 'OOUUWWWW!!' really loudly and turn away, walk off and stop the game. eventually the doggy will realise that touching tooth to skin is not good as it stops the game.  (although sometimse loud noises are lots of fun for puppies!). its working with our 12 week leonberger pup though! hope that helps a bit.

Yes puppies do think loud noise is fun! I've been trying the 'OWWWWW' theoy for a while now with my Labrador pup and he just seems to think its a game and gets more excited. Any other tips anyone?

You are right. Some dogs think you are just another squeaky toy.  The best way to cope with puppy biting, which all puppies engage in to a greater or lesser degree, is to give them something else to focus their attention on.  Keep still and try to be as boring as possible and then suddenly produce a toy from your pocket and become exiting, either with a tug toy for them to bite or a toy that they can retrieve.  You will need to make sure that the toys are exiting for the puppy by keeping them away from him and giving him just a mediocre chew toy for him to have on his own.  Another thing that sometimes works is to keep back some of their daily food ration and whenever puppy is likely to start biting you can scatter a handful of his food on the floor, giving him something else to do instead.  If puppy does start biting then best to just walk away without reacting (if possible) and step over a stair gate or through the door and close it behind you.  Stepping into a cardboard box (maybe pick up your book and read a paragraph) works with a small pup like a JR.  Just for a minute or so and then come back in and try to get him focused on the toy or food.  As hard as it is to not get cross, shouting, smacking, scruffing etc. will usually make things worse. IMO
Sally

Another bitten owner here!  Although Millie's biting has calmed down a lot since we got her, she still thinks fingers are for putting in mouths, as are sleeves and feet - I tried most of the usual tips - the owwwwww!, (no effect) the ignoring (doesn't care about being ignored!), the water pistol (worked well for a while until she sussed out the water pistol), the walking away (clamps her teeth around your foot and clings on for dear life) and the toy distraction but so far none of them have worked - especially the toy distraction, we have found that she cleverly starts biting when she wants a game as she quickly learnt to associate biting us with having a game with a toy (that's not to say we didn't play with toys at other times, but she did learn there was also an association with biting). 

I'm going to try the food on the floor method you mentioned Sally, although I suspect she will learn an easy way to get some food is to bite!  Leaving the room might work in some cases,(we have to keep the stairgate on the stairs since she mastered the stairs at 9 weeks old and I read here that stairs are very bad for puppies!  it has also fallen down many times and she is terrified of it so we try to keep it out of her way and just in one place until she gets more confident seeing it around), but we would have to leave the room and close the door BEFORE she got hold of our feet!

So, if you could think of any more tips, I'd be really grateful of them - value your advice Sally.  Oh and others too!  We rarely shout, we growl or say 'No' deeply and loudly and show her we are cross because while we are not too bothered ourselves (as in obviously we don't like it/want it, but we've learnt to accept it as something our puppy does that we need to constantly work on) , our visitors seem to be bothered by it and comment on her biting all the time, making us feel like we have an unruly puppy!!  Poor Millie!

Sorry, should have made it clearer.  Don't wait for puppy to start biting before producing a toy or food as yes you are quite right they will learn to do it to get the said reward.  Walk into the room and give the toy BEFORE the puppy has even had the chance to think about sinking their teeth in.  Cannot stress that enough.  If they start to bite then they get nothing.
Sally

Ah! Thinking about it that makes perfect sense - doh!  But used The Perfect Puppy book which told to use a toy to distract her if she started biting so I think I shall bin the book and just get my tips from here now :-)  You can never tell when she's going to do it though.  She'll be sitting happily and calmly on your lap, then suddenly just start biting your hands, or lying peacefully at the other end of the settee then stroll over towards your lap and suddenly change course and grab hold of your arm/sleeve when you don't expect it!  Or she'll be happily lying, playing on the floor with her toys then just zoom over to your feet before you have a chance to blink!

I think I need to so some serious analysing and watching her over the next few days, to see if I can spot the triggers.

I have just mentioned this on another thread, but it's relevant here too.

My Staff (now five months) rarely bites now, but he did constantly before I tried a very clear method.  I feel that with some puppies, it's nots simply a question of having chew toys as a distraction etc. - they simply get carried away and want to bite your fingers no matter how many distarctions you provide.  In this situation it's important to assert authority.  I say a firm 'no' as a warning and if that is not heeded, I hold his muzzle and nip his ear with my own teeth.  If you do that, pretty soon just a 'no' and at worst holding his/her muzzle is sufficient.  By nipping his/her ear yourself, I think you are providing the clearest message to the dog, and two very experienced dog handlers that I have met swear by the method.

As a matter of interest is this your first dog?

although pretty sore "mouthing" is perfectly normal in most puppies :)

Are you asking me?

Yes.

Sorry I just wanted to be sure!! :)

This is my fourth dog, but first Staff.  I was quite young for the previous 3, however, and this is the first that I have been responsible for the training.

Before we had a westie and a black lab (very sadly hit by a car at 3 years old), and then a Dobermann.

Why do you ask?  Do I come across as being very naive? ;)

Just to let people know, I am only offering advice from my own experience, and as with all things in life there is no single way of achieving a goal.  However, some ways are more effective than others, and whilst the housetraining could certainly be better, my dog has gone from a fairly 'bitey' little so and so to a pretty obedient young man!! :)

No not naive, but simplistic, sorry not putting you down but what works with one dog will not work with the next and your method struck me as a bit too easy. ;) Lets hope it will work.

My method  would be to remove myself from the dog, also simplistic, but I too have found it works.

OK fair enough!  Criticism taken :)

I agree that every owner is different and will have their own 'correct' way of doing things, amny of which will work.  But I think we can learn, to a degree, from how the bitch would discipline her own litter.  That would invariably involve a growl (i.e. a firm 'no') followed by a nip if necessary (i.e. a short but sharp nip on the ear).  I also experimented with holding him on his back but he seems to enjoy that position too much for it to be a disciplinary measure :)

And of course there are no rules.  Every rule, paricularly with puppies (!!), must be flexible, and the owner's discretion in the end is key.

I've been told off before for criticising other people's advice and swore I wouldn't do it again but what the hell. :(  Do you have children?  Would you teach them to do that to a dog?  Because if you did they might lose their face.  And one day so might you.

I have no children and if I did I would not expect them to discipline a puppy in that way.  For a child or somebody uncomfortable with my advice, the better method would be to say no firmly, and to walk away - and to ensure plenty of distractions through chew toys etc.

But as I have found out, a teething puppy will still try to chew anywthing.  He/She needs to learn as early as possible that biting people is not allowed.  Not so long ago I was at a loss because there was nothing I could do to stop my puppy nipping me and my friends when they came to see him.  Since I nipped his ear a few times, he hardly does it at all.  Now, when friends come over they comment how much less he he tries to bite them, wheras before I was constantly worried about having people who were unfamiliar with dogs play with him.

As for biting my face, I love to be affectionate with him and bring his face to mine.  I continue to do that everyday and feel I am building a mutual trust.  I feel safer now than I did before I had started the 'ear nipping' form of teaching. 

By the way Sally, I do apologise if I upset you.

As I stressed before, I am only offering advice from my own experience.  I don't get some kind of excitement from giving people bad advice!  This website has helped me over the last 3 months or so, and I want to start to give something back.

And as I said before, I appreciate that every owner and their circumstances are different, as are their dogs.

It wasn't my question originally but its something I've needed advice on so kind of jumped in the middle earlier, and I just want to say that I tried the leaving the room thing earlier - had to do it 3 times because each time I returned she started biting my hands again, but after the third time, I sat down she moved towards biting my hand then changed her mind and climbed onto my lap instead, settled down and slept for half an hour!!!!

I told the trick to my boyfriend when he got home and he's been trying it a few times too, so fingers crossed it might work - she hates being alone (has only just stopped whining every time I go upstairs to the toilet!) so this could have the effect on her of making her consider the consequences of biting us!  Like I say fingers crossed, watch this space, and thanks for the advice!!

Using physical punishment and inflicting pain will suppress natural behaviours.  Using positive training methods will sometimes take longer but the difference is that the dog has chosen not to engage in the behaviour.  The reason I asked if you had children is because dogs that are subjected to physical punishment by adults are more likely to bite the children in the family.  I work with aggressive dogs by the way and I live with three ex-child biters.
Sally

I understand what you are saying, but there are varying degrees of physical punishment.  A short sharp nip on the ear of my puppy is certainly at the lower end of the scale.

I do not understand how his natural behaviours may have been affected?  Surely by replicating the behaviour of a bitch you are teaching them in a more natural way?

And whilst I do not have children, my friend's do and they play with him and he is fine.  He wasn't not so long ago because of his nipping.  My dog is not aggressive, but as with a lot of Terriers, sometimes his playing needs to be kept in check.  If you are going to keep a pet, you must impose a degree of your will on them, or else you run the risk of creating an unworkable scenario.

In no way would I condone hitting a dog, or inflicting any level of pain on them, but effectively the ear nipping technique is just a physical reminder that in my opinion enhances the bond with your puppy, rather than creating some kind of aggressive animal.  Of course if you only bit the dog and never showed affection, it may be suspicious of people.  But as a dog lover, I give him affection 99.999999% of the time, particularly around his face and ears. :)

By the way, it is only for nipping that I have used that reminder.  I too believe in progress through praise.

I don't want to get into another debate about punishment.  You have every right to bite your puppy and as you didn't ask me for advice in the first place I'm sorry I butted in. 

Just one thing have you ever seen an adult dog nip the ear of a puppy ???????

I never have & the alpha dog never bites a puppy They will ignore & walk away from unacceptable behaviour

If it becomes really aggressive the alpha will pin the puppy down(not tip upside down but pin down flat tummy side down) then walk away

Still if you think biting your dog & showing it aggression works fine just never try it on a collie or GSD or big dog, you may live to regret it

Firstly, I do not BITE my puppy.  A nip is a gentle reminder of who's boss and it works well.

Secondly, I would only recommend this with a young puppy - therefore breed and future size is pretty irrelevant.  The nipping technique would not be beneficial or advisable with an adult dog, irrespective of size.

Thirdly, I do not believe in aggression towards dogs, and would distance myself strongly from any form of violent behaviour towards any being on this planet, let alone a loved one.

I am trying to give some advice that worked for me when it was given by separate sources.  Clearly that advice is not appreciated, but nevertheless my intentions are not to misguide or misinform.

I have not bred dogs myself, and have only witnessed my own dogs playing together as well as friend's litters, so I will not pretend to be anything like an expert on the subject of canine discipline.  If a bitch walks away from her puppy, and people replicate that, then that's great.  I myself have used that technique.  But unlike others I did not get positive results solely from that method.  I sought advice from a variety of sources.  What I then used was something like a hybrid of what has already been mentioned here, as well as ear nipping for when he would not stop biting.

I can assure people who may have interpretated me as some kind of cruel owner that this is far from the case.  I have been able to take time off work to raise this puppy and almost every ounce of my attention has gone to him over the last 3 months.  I have received praise from those who meet my puppy, and from my local dog trainer.  I feel a bit uncomfortable saying that, because of course I don't do it for praise, but out of love for my puppy - I just feel I need to tell you that I did not take the issue of a teething puppy lightly.

Once again I apologise for upsetting people on these boards - I am pretty new here and just wanted to give some of my own feedback. 

It seems the topic of this thread has taken a whole new meaning :D

<<Surely by replicating the behaviour of a bitch you are teaching them in a more natural way?>>

I couldn't agree more - so why are you nipping them - especially on the ear? I have never seen a bitch nip any pup on the ear, whether they're her own pups or someone else's. What I have seen, many times, is a bitch swiftly grab a naughty pup's muzzle (whole head if it's a small pup) in her mouth and softly growl. No nipping, no biting - just a hold. The result - an immediately chastened pup who decides that improved behaviour is needed!

An 'auntie' bitch, or another adult will, in times of extreme exasperation, pin a pup down - but not on its back. It will flatten the pup's tummy to the floor - and when it let's go the pup will generally roll over of it's own accord. That is a world away from flipping it over - that is an act of aggression and will result in fear and mistrust in the pup - not the relationship anyone should want to have with their pet!
:)

My old lady Una will do exactly what JG has described to put my rescue boy in his place round the muzzle push him flat and a word in his ear. He will roll over belly up.

JG that's exactly what I have witnessed in my years of dog owning.

I have never ever seen an adult dog nip a puppy in the ear or anywhere else. I have noticed that the bitches seem to be much less tolerant, which if you think about wild dogs is natural as their puppies are2minded"by the lower ranked females when the pack is away hunting. My males just keep well clear until they are around 6 months & through the play nip stage

Sorry but nipping is bitng & if you did that to a collie or GSD you would regrt it in the long run, as i said you may LIVE to regret it on the otherhand you could be teaching your dog to bite if another animal does something that it does not like you are teaching it aggression rles.

My GSD disciplines the cavaliers by body language on a whole & when that is ignored goes for the tummy down pin & yes she does get the whole of the cavaliers head in her mouth & never ever nips or hurts them

OK, so clearly my method has not been accepted by those who have replied.  But it is a tried and tested method by others and certainly in no way represents animal cruelty.

It is about asserting authority and allowing them to realise the consequences of their own actions.  Given proper love, there is no reason why this would produce an aggressive dog.

However, this is my opinion, and I appreciate that it is not necessarily the best way.

If it hurts the puppy which it does it is cruel

The others who prescribe this method are who ??? presumably someone from 40 + years ago when training was decribed as dog breaking

It has no place in training anyone's dog today

If it works so well why do you have to repeat it ?

Hey now! I'm in the over 40+ class but would never train a dog with pain or force if it comes to that.

Trust me it works.  I have had to do it a maximum of about 6 or 7 times.  Now just saying 'no' suffices.

And I think you will find that it does not cause pain in any real or lasting sense.  It is a reminder.

I genuinely hope that you don't feel I am trying to 'break' my dog, whom I adore and whom I dedicate a great deal of energy and love towards.

As I have said I do not condone animal cruelty.  Can you really not distinguish between varying degrees of physical punishment?

Were my parents cruel to once or twice smack my backside as a child?  Does that amount to the same as punching me?

Why inflict pain when you don't need to? Does it make you 'feel' you are 'doing something' when you use such methods? How you train your dogs is up to you but I for one would be happier if you did not suggest others tried it, when you who suggest the method are not there to see if it is being done in the correct way or if the dog is showing an adverse reaction. IMO the web is not the place to advocate any sort of physical or forceful training, it could lead to people misunderstanding your instruction and either hurting the dog or being hurt themselves.

The people who suggested it to me were not there to supervise me either.  Having a dog is a very personal experience and people should know and feel what is right with their dog and what their boundaries are.

All I have done is relay some of my own experience in order to help others and throughout I have stressed that it is only MY opinion and that I do not condone violence to animals.

Besides, why would anyone give any credence to what I have said, given the level of opposition to it?

As far as inflicting pain and not needing to - I have already dealt with those points.

It is opposed because it is not necessary to inflict pain and not ethical either, other methods being successful and quick without the attendant danger. Just because you took someone's suggestion and have not as yet had a problem does not mean that someone taking your advice will not.

A lot of things "work" on some dogs, some times, with some owners.  However that does not mean that coercion should be advocated as a method of day to day management.  Using your approach presents risks to both dogs and owners and, IMHO, are at an unacceptable level.

I'm well into the over 40 bracket as well Moonmaiden and yes, this was something which was sometimes recommended 50 years ago! But we are not living 50 years ago now and as a method it was dumped many many years ago. We now use brain rather than brawn. :)

A puppy biting is the most natural thing. Just about every puppy ever born has, to a greater or lesser extent closed it's moth around anything and anyone it can get its mouth around. It is the way it learns the lessons it needs to learn to survive in its natural environment. It, along with every other wild animal has a need to catch its food and the "War games" played with its littermates are part of the learning curve. We may not, do not, want our puppy biting but it is the most natural thing in the world.

Watching a bitch with her puppies will give you clues to deal with it just as has been said. The most dominant bitch I have ever owned would not dream of biting a puppy, on the ear or anywhere else for that matter. The hard growl she used left the pup in no doubt about her thoughts and just to reinforce the point she would finish whatever game was going on by walking away.

As to a puppy learning its place. I expect my dogs to work for me. I don't need to be hard on them or even to make a big thing about it. They soon learn that mine is the voice of authority. I supply the food, I supply the love and I also supply the orders. Consistency of words and actions are all that is necessary.

Best wishes, John

Hmmm, yeah i dont understand this puppy biting thing. For the amount of response that it is not even natural for a bitch to do this to her pups or any other pups, i dont mind if its worked for someone, i would NEVER want to bite my puppy! I really dont see how it can be justified to being uncruel. sure, smacking bums isnt going to hurt a child for life - but humans are a lot more intelligent than dogs and can answer back. dogs cant.

I don't know about your experiences as a young child, but I never found it effective to answer back to a slapped bottom... 

I personally think it is naive of you to say that dogs cannot answer back.  As people who sign up to this message board, I would expect you know that dogs can answer back, and whether it be by aggresion, ingnorance, or cunning, dogs DO answer back.

At the end of the day, this puppy biting argument boils down to one's character; favouring retribution and discipline, or forgiving and forgetting.  I believe that the dogs brought up by forgiving and forgetting are more likely to snap at any given moment.

As you all say, the 'puppy biting' method was adopted 50 odd years ago, but 50 odd years ago one did not hear of so many dogs going off the rails and snapping back at people.  I feel that if a dog gets used to pain, and I say "pain", he will be more likely to tolerate it, and I believe that this will help in the long run.

Also on the stopping puppies biting scene, if a dog associates biting with pain, this can only be seen as a deterrant.

If a dog associates biting with pain, it will become fearful of what causes the pain - not the biting, but the owner! And a dog which is fearful of its owner is an unhappy and potentially dangerous dog.

Quite the contrary.  A dog that fears its owner (which it would not anyway), will respect its owner.  And a dog that respects its owner, will listen to its owner.

I regret to inform you that fear does not equate with respect.  My dogs respect me but they do not fear me and they do listen to me!

Do you really believe fear equates to respect Mew_mew?? I find it very hard to believe that anyone can be that naive these days!!

Wrong, mew_mew, utterly wrong! Fear does not breed respect! It breeds hate!

:rolleyes:

<<As you all say, the 'puppy biting' method was adopted 50 odd years ago, but 50 odd years ago one did not hear of so many dogs going off the rails and snapping back at people.>>

I can assure you there were some Mew_Mew! That was why we changed out methods

Not as many as one hears of today...

I really am at a loss for words.  To all those who really believe my method is cruel, either you have mis-understood me, or you need to get real and realise that dogs are animals (as we are) not fine waifer-thin origami models.

I LOVE MY DOG AND WOULD NOT HARM HIM IN ANY WAY!

Pain is not the way forward with dogs as a means to discipline, but lets not get carried away.  A gentle nip on the ear is not harmful to a dog in terms of physical pain.  Some puppies are simply very 'bitey' and need to be shown what they are doing is not nice and will not be tolerated.

Following this method, my dog loves to put his face next to mine and curls up next to me on the sofa all the time.  A sign of fearfulness or nervousness I think not!

HOWEVER, please do not follow what clearly is irresponsible advice based on the reactions here.

I wasn't going to add anything here but just thought of this and I had to post.
My 7 month old daughter who is teething bit her grandad today - did he bite her back? Of course not! She doesn't know she is hurting and is simply exploring the world around her. Her grandad squealed (as much as a man can squeal :D ) and this seemed to make her jump.
I think this says it all - puppies are only babies and physical punishment I feel is not necessary.