At the risk of the wrath from Lab lovers..I have a possibly very contentious question re.the Lab who won the Gundog Group at Crufts...was it...umm, how can I say this...a little "portly"?  Maybe I am just used to seeing muscled, working dogs and have no clue about show Labs but to me, it looked fat...am I wrong on this?

I will now run for cover and probably get a blasting from show Lab people for showing my complete ignorance of the breed! :-)

Oh Glad you mentiond this I agree looked far to heavy to me and certainly doubt if you could 'feel his ribs' like you are supposed to.

Jesse

p.s. We'll duck together ;)

I'll join you!

Right, well that's 3 of us in the bunker...how many more! :-)

I actually thought the Welsh Springer was a complete stunner (even though I'm no fan of them at all) and the Flatcoat was a contender too...but obviously just goes to show what I know! :-)

I thought  the lab looked er Chunky is the best was to put it

There were some nice forces labs their in hard working condition nice laid by temps too but still labs as one checked out a lady's empty sandwich box as he was been taken out to excercise could be of course that she'd had a bit of "grass"in her sandwiches :D He checked it out then sat looking at it very pleased with himself

He obviously knew he was off duty & I had a nice chat with his customs & ex handler who was off to buy him some new toys well in handlers words after he had been out THEY were going to choose some new toys

I thought that too.  Isn't this true of many breeds though?  There are those bred to work and those bred for looks.  At discover dogs we were amazed that the Border Collies were asleep every time we walked past them.  :D

Sally

The beardies too mine never were they were always looking for someone to greet & beg food or a toy off :D

& my BC's I could never bench them if I wasn't there as they used to invent games with their benching rugs etc

There were a lot of BC's covered up in cages too Not bothered about the cages as they are safer than benching chains but covered up ???? I wonder why

I'm in there with you girls!  I thought quite a few of the dogs looked as if they led very comfortable lives and had too many second helpings!

On the dane stand there were two dogs - one boy who had no muscle tone and flat aplayed feet, a sure sign of no exercise. There was also a blue bitch that had a fat hanging stomach - she was lying down and had no "tuck" :( not a good impression.

I thought the Boxer looked in cracking condition though.

Jesse

A friend of mine came from Spain and his two Spanish vet friends, they couldn't believe how "fat" he was, have to agree I thought so too!!!  Though I felt that the one that won at Darlington last year was rather big too, so maybe I have the wrong idea on how they are supposed to be built :d

IMO (for what it's worth) for a show lab he looked quite good! (Though his coat looked very wavy, but that could have been the poor lighting.) For a worker he'd need to lose several pounds though.

*Ducks back beneath the parapet*

Interesting.  The biggest dog show we have and a fat lad wins??!!!  I'm entering Norman next year.  He'll walk it.  (or is it waddle)  If you all think the same then how come the judge didn't? 

Aaaah.  He had a white stick didn't he

Ah but Joe, we don't know what the rest of them were like! ;) Maybe he was the slimmest!
:)

'Slim' is not a word I'd have used to decribe him,  JG :)

True! Perhaps I should have said 'least fat' instead!
:)

In his defence, from the ringside he looked fit to me and don't forget the breed standard...

"General Appearance~
Strongly built, short-coupled, very active; broad in skull; broad and deep through chest and ribs; broad and strong over loins and hindquarters."

Maybe he also has the correct double coat making him look bigger?

But what do I know as a novice? *Shrugs*

When my brother in law met my show bred lab for the first time he said, "what a fatty!" I told him to feel her, to put his hands on her. She is not fat by any means, she has barrel ribs and a hard broad backside!

:)

Ha ha...I thougt he looked fabulous, maybe a tad over weight but still a fantastic dog! I'm just over the moon that a lab won though!!! yipee!!!!!!

I've long since admired the boy myself.  I wonder what you all thought of the two half dead specimens that were representing their breed in the Discover Dogs, now those I would not give breathing space to.
Now I shall run for cover :)

<<she has barrel ribs>>

I thought a barrel chest was a fault? Doesn't the standard state the ribs should be 'well-sprung'?

The ribs of a Labrador should, I understand, go out either side in a barrel shape from the spine making it well sprung, that is what I meant, sorry.

I admit to being a novice, so referred to a book by Mary Roslin Williams (The Dual Purpose Labrador.)  In there, page 97, she uses the words "barrel-like" and "barrel-hoop." She also says, "A Labrador's rib in section should look like a barrel, while a Golden Retriever's is shaped more like an egg."

Maybe this barrel shape makes the dog appear fat?

(Excellent book by the way for any Lab enthusiast!)

:)

Being equally a novice with labs, I was referring to 'The Labrador Retriver' by Lorna, Countess Howe and Geoffrey Waring where the 'bare bones' of the Standard are explained.

"Body: While a dog is wanted with plenty of heart and lung room, in other words a good depth of chest and spring of rib is required, a barrel chest which is inclined to produce faulty fronts is to be avoided. So also is a slab-sided animal which will produce other faults, notably narrow fronts."

The problem with 'barrel chests' is that they are often not able to further expand when the the animal is exercising, so it does not have the required stamina.
:)

Would love to meet and discuss this with you!

That is interesting about the chest expanding, but maybe the heart and lungs don't actually fill the ribs at rest? They then have the room to expand if the ribs are barrelled...  The chest shouldn't be overwide at the FRONT at this would cause resistance in the water while swimming, but not too narrow to make it weak.

Both Countess Howe and Anne Roslin Williams are experts. (I was recommended to get the latter by several breeders.)

I still think he was fit not fat... ;)

To tcarlaidh, even my hubby noticed that... :D

Hi JG & walkhound, it's the same for the celtic sighthounds. They should have good depth of chest & spring of ribs to allow maximum heart & lung room but barrel chests are wrong for the reason you say. There was heart testing for IWs and deerhounds (until the money ran out :( ) as part of research projects into cardiomyopathy in the breeds, and watching the echos in healthy hounds of different conformation and different levels of fitness is fascinating. But the big running hounds aren't supposed to have rolls of podge over their neck/ shoulders ......

.... running for the air raid shelter ........

No, there certainly shouldn't be space within the chest at any time. All room for the expansion of lungs can only come from the movement of the ribs and diaphragm. I know that in many other breeds a barrel-chest indicates a lack of speed in a dog - perhaps that is what is required in a labrador, so that they don't 'overrun' the game?
:)

Certainly a lab wasn't built for speed, although the working trial people will disagree I am sure!

Over-running, very tame example here -  I can throw my ball on a rope for my lab and her and my friends lurcher will run for it, but the lurcher hasn't yet learnt to slow down when he gets there, so my lab (who is waaaay behind) gets it first as he goes flying past! :D

This discussion is not getting anything done at home here you know!! :D

As show Labs go I thought this one was quite reasonable. I must say that I would have liked to put my hands on it, you see so poorly on TV of what's under all the coat. Certainly when compared with some of the Labradors I was with this morning one would say "Rather Portly" but, and I'm sorry to say it, the working Labs have departed so far from the show dogs that we really could be looking at different breeds.

I feel it such a shame that this should ever have been allowed to happen. My own feelings are that a show Labrador should at least look as if it could manage a day in the field and that the working Labrador should show at the least a passing resemblance with the breed is purporting to be. There are some gorgeous working dogs out there and I do know of some show dogs who do spend time picking up during the season so I know it can be done.

Best wishes, John

John ~ I personally know some gorgeous winning show labs who work!

Your post is excellent as always and I was sorry not to find you on Friday. :(

This particular dog certainly had one of the nicest heads I've seen on a show-lab for some time. Most of the ones we saw on gundog day last year were very short in the muzzle, with some looking almost like rotties. This year's BoB, on the other hand, looks as though he would be capable of carrying game some distance.
:)

You took the words I didn't dare say right out of my cowardly mouth! :D But then I'm not a gundog person ....

OK I have labs and I though the same, mind you I did have two labs 8 months apart in ages (sadly lost one last year), both fed and exercised the same, one stayed lean the other was deep chested and chunkier (this was a sandylands one, are they normally chunkier?). Went to a gun dog show last week and was amazed at the size of the labs there, so am guessing for showing the chunkier labs are favored and for working the leaner labs.  So does that mean the leaner ones would not be considered at shows, as a breed standard that is, I realise they can do the obedience, agility etc..   (mine you am happy a lab won lol). 

You know everyone I spoke to said the same thing.
He did look a tad over weight.
Someone said that he is a show dog, should that
differ from a working dog ? Why ? I know you are going
to say because they are in harder condition, but surely they are
being judged on a breed that is a working gundog ?  So this
dog must portray in excellence of the breed ? If not why was
it picked ?
It must of been great to get group one in the gundogs, so
congratulations to the owner.
Nutkin

Nutkin i have to agree with you - WHY does a show dog have to look different to a working dog? this happens with horse breeds too - some are bred just for 'in hand' showing and the rules have gone so far away from what they used to be (which was that the horse had to be able to not only be great in conformation, but also excellent in racing, cow work and roping to name a few (i'm referring to an american quarter horse here). to me the horse ahs been ruined because they have gone too far away from why they breed these animals. labs should surely be bred to look fit and healthy and not 'well covered' which to me looks just like a fat old spoilt dog. (he was very happy though).

One of the very influential dogs in the Sandylands line was Margi Cairns "Ruler of Blaircourt". To me one of the first of the more chunky "Modern" style Labradors. Ruler was by Forbes of Blaircourt out of Olivia of Blaircourt. He was mated to Tessa of Blaircourt and amongst the puppies was Sandylands Tweed of Blaircourt. Tweed was mated to S. Annabel to produce the world famous S. Tan who himself went on to produce S. Tandy. These dogs are to be found at the back of almost all present day show Labradors.

To understand the Show/Working types of Labrador you need to bear in mind that a Show dog is bred with a close eye to the breed standard whereas a working dog is bred with working ability as the criteria. Whilst at times I feel that maybe the breed standard is not being interpreted in quite the right manner I also believe maybe the working people have stretched the imagination just a little too much.

Best wishes, John

Bearing in mind that a/ i know next to nothing about labradors, and b/ im a sighthound fan........

I still thought that lab was a fatty!

Yes, they are a solidly built dog, able to withstand retrieving from cold water etc etc...but come on, the way his flesh rolled when he moved (and he moved very nicely) there was more than hard muscle there!
And yes, i thought his coat was wavy....possibly the shiny black coat exaggerated it a bit, but it looked wavy to me..

**tin hat on now***

There was a shot of him from a sort of 3/4 view, from behind, and i have to say the size of his neck/head/shoulders reminded me enormously of a Rottie!!!!!

I dont think that dog was the only fatty there though....most of the show dogs ive seen are carrying more fat than id like in a dog of mine.....again, yep i have a lurcher, he is NOT a fatty by any stretch of the imagination..i saw a shot of a greyhound and even THAT was a bit of a lard-arse by my standards!

Why is 'condition' translated as 'porky'? I aim to get my dogs fit, hard muscled and lean....the lurcher is most definately that, the crossbreed is a little tubbier than id like, but is probably what most vets would say was fine.

Em (whose pet hate is fat dogs, especially fat labs!)

Hello all,

I have to say that when I first saw Ace, the black lab, my first thought was 'he's rather 'well covered', but after seeing him moving (and jumping up at the judge :), ) I would have to say that he's pretty nice for a show type lab.  I wonder whether he would really be able to go out for a days work without flaking out after 1/2 and hour, but at least he had a nice head, not too short a nose, and a very 'happy' tail.  He looked like the only one in the BiS lineup that was genuinely happy to be there- at least he made the judge smile :)
I have to admit that I agree with John though about the split between show and working type.  Its a shame that there are so few real 'dual purpose' labs left out there. At least some of the other gundog breeds still manage to have truly dual dogs, I'm thinking of the Flatcoats in particular, why did it all go so differently for the labrador?
I would say that I am biased towards working type, but even one of mine, Isla, really shows just how far apart the two types can go while still being a good pedigree.  She is a bit too lightly built and would get laughed out of the show ring :)
That said, my new one Kester, seems to be a bit more of the 'older' type of working lab.  He's not going to be hughly tall, and will be a bit stockier but still with a lovely broad head.
The American labs seem to be going even further down the line.  Although the breed standard is different (i think!), they seem to be very very much racier looking with much narrower muzzles and thinner faces altogether.
 
Anyway, back to the Crufts lab, at least his tail kept going the whole way through, bless.....
Ali :)
p.s. Although I'm not really a huge fan of the breed, I thought that the boxer was an absolute smasher.

I agree MentalCat, that Boxer was a stunner wasn't he...looked like a bit of a handful though...but what Boxer's aren't! :-)

I think you have to look at the old days to really appreciate how the split occurred. And for that matter why it did not occur in some other breeds (and why I'm afraid that in wont last in those breeds) The Flatcoat is one of the oldest of the retrieving breeds. It really was the keepers and guns choice in the latter part of the 19th century. There were several big kennels breeding Flatcoats at that time one of the most influential being H Reginald Cooke's  Riverside affix Mr Henry Reginald Cooke, (Born 1859) both showed and worked his dogs, helping to maintain the breed in it's entirety. With the advent of the Labrador the Flatcoat declined drastically. Flapper, a Labrador belonging to Mr M Portal became the first Labrador to gain an award in a field trial really started the decline. Labradors, being far more biddable rapidly supplanted the Flatcoat as the keeper's dog.

By the time of the war Flatcoat numbers had sunk to such low levels that with the negligible breeding of pedigree dogs, at the end of the war there were less than 20 registered Flatcoats! Labradors, although hard hit started from a much higher base so were not in the same endangered state

That's the background, now the important bits!

The future of Flatcoat was in the hands of very few people but those people were well up to the job! Most are no longer with us but their affixes linger on. The late Hon Amelia Jessel, (Colliers) was one. Bill Garrod (Glidesdown) Joan Chester-Perks (Tonggreen) are possibly the best know. All worked and showed, keeping the real "Dual Purpose" dog.

Labradors on the other hand, being a much larger breed tended to be in the hands of far more specialised people. The few Show and Working kennels from around the war years, Kennels such as Banchory, Mrs Quintin Dick (Later Lorna Countess of Howe), Mansergh, Mary Roslin Williams and Brentchase, Miriam Kinsella to name just three. Unfortunately the great majority of people specialised in either show or work! This of course made the divergence inevitable.

This year there were I believe 391 Flatcoats entered at Crufts. It seems unbelievable that until Crufts moved to the NEC just a few years ago the entire breed was judged in just one ring! Now they are hard put to finish in time using separate rings for dog and bitch! With an exponential expansion of the breed it is inevitable that most people will specialise in either work or show with very few people doing both.

As I said at the start, I believe the day of the dual purpose Flatcoat is drawing to a close.

Best wishes, John

John,

It'll be a sad sad day when they diversify the way the labs have done :(

Ali :)

Admit I know nothing about labs, but I honestly think the build and look of a working lab is much more attractive than the "more wobbly" show lab - I also think it shows in the coat that they are fitter. Before I duck for cover with the rest, I have to disagree with Theemx though - theres not much fat on a good show terrier.

Right I have labs had them for a long time i would like to say yes I agree the lab looked heavy  but!!! you need to go over a dog t see why he was in the group and why he won it he mustve been a good specimen of the breed lets face it look at numbers in the  lab rings and then look at labs you can talk 500 labs in at crufts for that do too have done that got past two lab judges and the goup judge must be   a special boy and plus to show his heart out after all that time well he deserves some credit
so lets give respct to judges here he wouldnt ahve been in the big ring if he didnt desverve it
and  labs have the most lovely temperamnet and he was one happy boy

No ducking required,

I said 'most' certainly not all! Yep, the terriers, well the ones without huge coats, or black (i was watching on the telly couldnt get there this year) did indeed seem fit and healthy.
Possibly not as hard muscled as a terrier that works.....but there again, you cant tell on the telly which terriers work and which do not.

I know of at least one terrier at crufts this year who definately works! Eh DawnB!

Em

I agree too.  I've currently got working labs, but had show strain before.

ENOUGH with the Fatty! my god the poor dog, goes out there and gets a torrent for being a large! the poor thing! I thought he was lovely so there!  Hurrah for the labrador I say!