I'm new to the board, and just wondered if any of you have read the dog listener.  I'm someone who follows natural horsemanship and i'm learning 'horse language/body language' to help me get more out of my relationship with my horses and was pleased to discover that there was literature on the same with dogs.  I never liked the 'obedience' training in forcing your dogs to do as you wanted and chastising them etc, so it fits with my way of life.  We are getting a leonberger puppy tomorrow and we already have a border collie x australian cattle dog who is as sharp as a razor but still thinks he has leadership duties which we are slowly trying to change (i'm sure it will be successful as he is so bright).
Does anyone else follow the pack rules or similar to use behaviour of dogs rather than trying to let them live in our complicated world? The results i have got with horses is astounding and the man who helped make a program for it - Pat Parelli, has never had a horse yet who has not responded to his methods.  He is sent violent/dangerous and 'problem' horses all the time to try to prove him wrong, but his method always works. as there are no problem horses, only problem owners.  I realise that the same goes for dogs... there are only problem owners! (or as pat says with horses... htey think they have a dope on a rope!).

hi havent read the book sorry, but welcome to Champdogs, your gonna really enjoy it :D

Jan Fennell (is that the 'Dog Listener' you mean?) certainly has some good ideas, but others of them seem to be way off beam. But as you say, it's a better method than bullying and force.
:)

I personally have found Jean Donaldson's book The Culture Clash the most useful and valuable tool in dog management, closely followed by Karen Pryor and Suzanne Clothier, then John Fisher who, although still attached to some of his original theories, was changing them before his untimely death.

All of these books emphasise positive reinforcement, are dog centred and demonstrate the fantastic relationships that can be developed by using operant conditioning.

I am not a fan of Jan Fennell I am afraid and do not subscribe to most of the views expressed in her book about pack leadership, token eating, going through doors first etc; never found them to be valid in practice and i have a strong aversion to anyone who "invents" dog languages such as "amichien"; however reading a wide spectrum of views helps to formulate one's own opinions and can be used to reinforce arguments for and against certain theories :D

I think that the sweeping statement that "there are no problem dogs"  originates from someone who has (thankfully) never had to work with them!  Some dogs, like some people, are born or develop mental problems that are not attributable to poor or bad handling/owners; thankfully they are rare but they DO exist!  The same applies to some horses in my experience :(  No amount of behavioural modification, diet manipulation or training will effect a "cure" in this minority in the long run.

I'm not a fan of Ms Fennell eiher

I saw her showing her GSD's at crufts on very fine chokers up around their ears Hardly a good advert I had her pointed out to me as my friends dog won the class she was in. Her dog wasn't very keen on being handled on the loose lead the judge asked for & having heard her tell people on the radio that she personally invented titbit training(funny I was using this method in the 1960's)

She has a degree in human pyschology or something similar & applies this to her "method"of dog training

Do you realize she tells people not to touch their dogs in training as "invades their personal space"& threatens the dog? My dogs like nothing better than to lean on whilst doing their heelwork training which I do entirely OFF lead My dogs must be very confused

This is very interesting as it did not come across in the book i have (the 30 day guide) of hers. I am sure some of her stuff is off the charts, but some of it does seem reasonable and not harsh on the dog. I'm going to takea  look at the culture clash though.. it seems very interesting. also for her to claim that treat training was her invention she must be stupid.
What i like about Pat Parelli the natural horsemahnship guy, is that he never claims to have made any of it up himself, just has put it into an easy learning format.

Interesting - Parelli. I looked into this and wasn't particularly impressed... I do find that a lot of these methods make people too concerned about what they are already doing (successfully) and and in turn make people upset an already happy relationship between horse and human - and horse and dog for that matter!

I looked into IH via Monty Roberts and Kelly, and I can't argue they seem to have results...not 100% sure why though - the whole "frozen watchfulness debate" has thrown it a bit. The thing I don't like bout Parelli is the cost associated - wow.

Yeah ChloeH - it is very costly. But once you have the tools - which all in all is HUGELY less than endless lungeing whips, tie downs, bits, spurs, different bridles etc and the latest gadget to make your horse hold its head in a different position, i think in comparison its not that much (I HATE going into tack shops now, seeing these endless and pointless bits/gadgets hanging up on the ceiling. ridiculous).  If all you are wanting though is to get a better partnership with your horse then the first three videos although expensive, are not massively so and you can work at your own pace. I personally think that if you take the hype away from it and forget the marketing/business side, then its acutally an excellent method - it is a shame that it costs alot.  I do agree that there are plenty of people who are getting on fine with their own brand of horsemanship iwhtout the need for extra help from pat parelli.

I didnt get on with monty roberts methods only because once you are joined up, you have no support as to what to do next. thats what i liked about parelli's methods is that it was a step by step thing. However there have been loads of horsemen and women using similar methods to parelli for centuries. He's just good at teaching people to be good with horses. I'm reluctant to spend money on their classes though (although recommend going to the seminars - went to the last two annual ones, very good) as they are very expensive. what is so good is that its so easy to do from home. my horse is awesome (although we were being very natural with her wihtout realising since her birth in our barn which has given her a head start!)

Yep - I guess its far better to use IH/NH methods as opposed to all the whips and gags etc! My concern is that I found myself looking too deeply into an already happy relationship with me and my horse. He is a perfect gent, only ridden in a snaffle.. could easily just be ridden in a halter... doesn't have any gadgets because we are just a pair of happy hackers, I don't even carry a whip. He's never going to drop into a "perfect outline" but thats fine by me :) However, I started to read too much into him doing little things - like pawing when eating - and started to worry about dominance etc...when really he can just be a bit of a victor meldrew at times and wants to eat his dinner in peace :D :D

I do wonder about how many folks perfectly happy relationships with their horses are upset by the owners reading too many articles and too much information - some conflicting. For the basic horse owner - like myself - I don't think there is anything wrong with more traditional methods. But I agree, with a problem horse or pony I would turn to Parelli or KM/MR IH before I turned to gadgets :)

Did your horse have problems or did you just fancy giving it a go?

Hiya ChloeH again!

Our horse has never had any problems - she is incredibly calm and relaxed and although stubborn at times, is a pleasure to handle. She is five this year and over the years people have said "no way is this horse so young and so well behaved - how did you do it"? and in fact, it wasj ust calm handling that did it and no fussing or trying to make her do things that panicked her. I also used to work in Arizona with some very top Reining trainers out there and saw some horrific techniques and always thought deep down that it shouldnt be that way. I also came across some very forcefull training in the UK when i have worked with breeders/trainers here too - so when i heard about parelli i was V skeptical as at that time i thought that the traditional (american western) way was a good solid way. However having gone to the parelli conference in 2002 i was blown away and thought it was superb and made so much sense. I dont knwo if you have ever seen Silke with her black fresian horses.. she's in a wheelchair and she can make them dance around her with no ropes/ties or anything. its truly inspirational.

I think the problem with the more traditional approach is that often we are taught to ride before we are any good at communicating with horses. I cant even number the amount of times i have seen owners who are dragged about and barged by their horses on the ground but once they are onboard then the horse is 'ok'. this is nota good relationship atall. ive heard people joke about their horse pinning its ears back at them or doingother such bad tempered things which are in horse language 'warnings' to you that you are doing something they dont like. or at least trying to tell you something! I think for every day horse owners that natural horsemanship is absolutely fantastic - more importantly for hte average or not that experienced horseperson. it gives you sooo much pleasure as if al you are wanting is a hack, then you can have an incredibly safe hack and if you want, you can go on to compete if thats your thang.

Instead of using NH for a problem horse or pony - on the whole that pony would probably not have had the problems had it been started using NH.  I think that the 'normal/traditional' way of doing things is far more confusing than the natural one! but thats just me!

Hi :)

Hey, if it works for you and your girl then fair play to you :) My Josh is 11 and has very much been raised and backed the traditional way - but definitely non-punishment wise. I know his history as I keep in touch with his breeder, who also backed him. He is an absolute delight to own...he doesn't barge. nip, nor kick and loves to suck your fingers :rolleyes: so I would see no need for me and him to change. He's a big lad too @ 16.2 IDxTB. I do agree that people do not spend enough time with their horses on the ground before riding... Josh and I only go out once a week but we spend a lot of time chatting and I groom him every day, even though he lives out. He would have a heart attack if he was ever told off or slapped :D

To play devils advocate slightly, what do you think to the argument that horses shouldn't be used for "games" as such? I know the NH/IH way is to have the horse on an equal footing...so surely games make that horse lower in standing? I have also heard that some horses can look positively depressed doing Parelli... although the same could easily be said for traditional horse ways! :)

The whole games thing is that WE have to win the games.  I think people get confused because they are called the seven games and think that somehow this makes it less serious. But to the horse these games represent what happens in a herd to gain leadership.  They say for instance that unless you are extremely competent that you should not handle stallions as they are naturally dominant (with some exceptions obviosuly) and you will need to be a hundred times more impressive to convince them of your leadership. (Parelli witnessed a stallion bite the throat out of a woman and kill her, also has been (in the past in his days before he got into NH had been picked up and chucked across the yard by stallions, a 250lb man!) If the horse wins the game (in his mind) then obviously then they are going to think that they have the upper hand.  From what i understand and have learnt the horse will naturally want a leader and if you do not fulfil this or show that you are capable, then he will take charge. 

oops, I misread your post.. but will add more to your question on the equal standing thing.  Natural horsemanship is not about being on an equal footing with the horse, its about learning the horses language and behaviour so that we can safely interact with it and become a 'leader' in their mini herd.  Even with humans there are never going to be two people who are completely equal - there will always be one of two who will lead more naturally than the other.  It is not a cruel thing to be the leader of your horse, it actually makes horses happy to know they have a leader who they can trust and so become much happier in stressful situations, as if we are relaxed - and they see us as leader - they should also knwo they have nothing to fear.

You are also right that some horses are depressed doing parelli - this is because the person doing it is not progressing or challenging the horse enough. The seven games are not written in stone and you can make these games into hundreds of different scenarios and parelli actually made a point at the last conference that people were boring their horses as they were still speaking in 'baby speak' when their horses had adavanced to university level in their minds, and that we should be more progressive and imaginative with our horses and what we do with them. Whether you chosoe to call it play or work!  I have to say though that i have seen far more depressed horses on my journeys through traditional (western and english) than parelli so far.  The trainers i worked for in america were two of the top in thier field and i'm sick to my stomach to think i ever thought they were doing the right thing with horses.

As you say though, as long as everything is done kindly and not emotionally then any form of trianing is good i would ahve thought.  The NH way does not mean that you never get firm with your horse though if he challenges the leadership. (by firm i dont mean violent!).
Also have you heard of Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling? He is the european version of parelli in a way, and had an excellent video and book called Dancing with Horses. Its a fascinating book (but i really recommend the video, its breathtaking - this guy is a natural).
I'm also very interested in the old high school training methods (not the cruel kind, but the true kind) they are very similar to the NH ways.

Thanks for that - I found that really interesting.

I have clearly not looked into Parelli enough to understand it - although I did find the website absolutely mindblowing I think that in a lot of ways people just don't understand the concept, and when you can't find clear information about what its about you tend to join the dots yourself (in my case). It still wouldn't be something I would do with Josh - but only because I don't have any problems at this stage. I also found the cost prohibitive, carrot sticks for about £30 a go...although I guess you could always make your own! I know I would look to IH methods if I did have problems with Josh - as opposed to traditional - because I don't believe slapping/shouting works.

I find the stallion discussion intriguing, as I have only ever met nice stallions - all trained in a traditional way. My friend owns a stallion who is gorgeous, and is more like a gelding, even though he is regularly used...and another friend owns an ID stud with 7 stallions, all of which are very well mannered and kept in ajacent separated stables in an open barn. In the case of at least three of them a child could lead them up to a covering they are so placid. I doubt she would even know of Pat Parelli as she is Miss Traditional... :D The others just love a fuss and a stroke. She has bred them all herself though - so I guess that helps considerably. I wouldn't want to meet a nasty stallion!

Can you tell me more about the games? I have seen some that involve tarpaulin etc?

I feel naughty talking horse ona  dog board.. but hey, we are all animal lovers here i think!

Yeah the website is interesting, but you have to clear away the hype and the branding and marketing and get down to the nitty gritty!  It is expensive (although there are people out there who sell copy parelli stuff for much cheaper - if you were interested i could give you their email!) but there is no doubt about it, parelli's stuff is made very well, plus the carrot stick isnt going to break in a hurry so its £30 well spent. As for the ropes, i'd NEVER go back to silly twisted 'normal' ropes ever again after using the night heavy parelli 12foot ropes, they are lovely and very handy when leading two horses if you need to walk past a large lorry on a lane!

The fact that you dont have problems with josh is brilliant and obviously you have a great relationship with him. I agree that the concept can be confusing as when i first encountered it (i was still working in the states and was visiting the uk for a short while) the person that described it to me did not explain it well enough and so i thought it was a load of twoddle and thought what on earth are these silly people doing waving sticks with string on them at their horses! but it really does work, there is no doubt and its so much fun playing with my horse - she is amazing at the squeeze game which most horses are TERRIBLE at (will explain the games in a mo).
When i worked in the usa iw as working in a barn of 44 show stallions (reining horses, mostly purebred quarter horses, GORGEOUS!) and some were also used for breeding too.  Most of them were great, but a couple who had been badly brought on/trained before they had got to the place i worked were very intimidating indeed.  Many people do not have problems with stallions - after all the spanish only ever use them most of the time for riding (mind you spanish ohrses are renowned for good temperaments) but i have sadly met alot of v dangerous horses (including mares and geldings though) which usually was a case of having been handled wrong.  You are obviously very lucky and know alot of great horse people who gain respect from their horses. its great to know.

As for the games, there are seven of them.  The first one imitates horses when they first meet, which usually includes sniffing, touching and so forth.  It is used to make sure you can touch your horse absolutely everywhere - even his most sensitive spots, so that there are no 'holes'.  Some people say 'oh he wont let me touch him there' - that means he's got one over on you. its very easy over time to get this game working well. Some horses will let you do this game straight off - others will freak out (if they have previously been beaten or badly treated).  One of the parelli guys in paris has a 'Zorse' called Stormy and she is half zebra half quarter horse and she is awesome. He is so connected to her that he can go straight into a field with her and take his bullwhip and crack it above her head whilst she cocks a leg and swishes her tail at the flies as if nothings going on.  This is just an example of very advanced 'friendly game'.  The next games just teach your horse to give to light pressure and then to rhythmic pressure (ie, not actually touching them but moving into their space so they move out of yours and away from you) - then another game to draw your horse to you and away from you. you then have a 'squeeze' game which is usually the most difficult game for horses as it involves squeezing the horse between you and the fence.. into a horse trailer, over a bridge.. etc etc. this also would include the tarpaulin but would also be friendly gameat the same time.  At the conference there were 6 little girls with their ponies who used to all do different things. One bucked, one had no breaks, one shied, one never loaded, one was slow etc etc.  Well these little girls could now ride thier ponies round with no fear of them doing their little 'vices' they threw taurpaulins over their heads (and the ponies just peeked out from under them in a very relaxed manner) and walked the ponies over the tarpaulins etc.  I'm rambling a bit here, but trying to illustrate its sooo amazing for children. and so inspirational as children are so much more natural with horses anyway - most of them being natural bareback riders! The games and things he asks you to do with your horse can look silly and like 'tricks' but it is only to show how comfortable your horse is with anything you do, and that he trusts you to do these things. It doesnt mean you cant go out and compete in dressage/cross country in the 'normal' way!  I know one woman did a dressage test perfectly in the parelli halter and reins but was disqualified because of the rules about there needing to be a bit. understandable as those rules are there for a reason, but this womans horse went better than all the others with bits!

THats another thing parelli insists on is bareback riding to improve your seat and connection with yoru horse. By the end of the summer i'm hoping to be charging around my field (in control!) with no bridle and no saddle. Its a fantsatic site when you see these guys in action!!
Still, its just something that has fitted with me and works for me (but i am very reluctant to spend money on it, i am an artist so not rolling in it!) and when i have new horses i will definitely use this method or others like it.

Sorry doggy peeps, i'm a big rambler!

I'm going to PM you so as not to hijack this thread any further :) Really interesting chat - would like to talk further - esp re Monty R :)

Well on the radio this week she again told a caller not to touch her dog whilst training as it was invading the dogs space

She also advises never to let a dog go through a door before you, do the token eating in front of it & ended with "contact me after the programm"  :O presumably for her or her son or one of her other "amichien"behaviourists to give a private consultation At what cost ? around £300(this was what was paid last year by an insurance company for a consultation)

When she was on the TV she had a very dog aggressive "yard dog"(lived all it's life on a chain :O)to sort out with it's new owners(was left when the stables where it lived changed hands)new puppy. Her advice feed them at the same time but apart although in vision & let the new dog "greet" the old dog on a lead when the old dog was on it's chain-result the dog go went totally mad snarling etc & the new dog did the same. This was at the beginning of the series. She told the viewers that the problem would be solved by the end of the series, but strangely enough there was never another mention through out the series I wonder why ??????

Gawd moonmaiden thats shocking.  So basically she's all hat and no cattle? very sad. I have tos ay having read a second book sinec reading hers (the Dog Whisperer) it made it plain that she really didnt have a clue what she was writing down. it was very vague in comparison to the whisperer.

Even i know that dogs are more agressive when on a lead and are better to sort it out loose.

I did e mail the TV company & ask what happened to the yard dog but got no reply I have a sneaking suspicious that a vet might have ended that problem permanently

My god moonmaiden that is terrible. lets hope its wrong. poor dogs.

Visit www.K9joy.com their methods of communicating with dogs makes Jan Fennell's method redundant!!

This thread is over a year old

tohme you are completely right.  In some cases as with humans there ARE problem dogs and horses(i didnt mean tto leave that out in my previous post) - BUT on the whole problems are caused by lack of communication between dogs/horses (moreso horses as they are more different to us than dogs being a prey animal and not a predator like us and dogs) and their owners lack of understanding of the animal - i have seen this mostly through alot of work with horses in america and here in the UK.  Alot of genuine problem dogs/horses are the result of bad breeding (not nescesarilly anything to do with 'purebreds') (ie, horse owners who have a horse who isnt sound or of sound mind to be ridden anymore so think thati ts a good idea to suddenly breed from this unsound horse with a bad temperament. and people who dont take the care to breed from good minded dogs either).

I am going to look out for those books you mentioned as i'm interested in as many views as possible on natural dog training.  I agree that making up languages is a bit silly - and one thing i did find about the book is that it was quite vague, but it certainly touched on alot of common sense.  I would love to know what it is about her views that are wrong? it would be very interesting to hear them.  I have a very open  mind to it because although not new to dogs, since discovering the natural horsemanship, I wanted to discover something similar with dogs which wasnt a Barbara woodhouse style with choke chains etc...! (absolutely loved the program 'faking it' the other day with that man and the dog bobbie who he had to train in a month, so adorable and i didnt see any negative reinforcement there atall).

I would also love to know anyones advice on bringing a new puppy into a home which already has a dog - we dont want to make the present dog (Indy) feel too left out, but at the same time dont want him to continue his leadership of the household (barking at EVERYTHING and also peeing in the house sometimes :S). He is incredibly intelligent and learns soo quickly (he's 7yrs).  He is the kind of dog who loves everyone and is never agressive, but wants to play most of the time.  How can we make the new addition as unstressful as possible? also, what should we do when we first bring the puppy into the house? should we introduce them outside the house first, or take the home dog for a walk and bring the puppy into the house while he is out? help would be appreciated here as we have always had dogs come intot he house at the same time, its the first time we have introduced a new dog to a house which already has a dog.

Without causing a riot and taking up too much time and space suffice it to say that I personally believe that the views expressed in the Dog Listener are hardly new, original or necessarily correct.

It is unfortunate that Barbara Woodhouse is so well remembered along with her choke chains (which as someone on here suggested are very useful for constructing hanging baskets) :D  Fortunately, as you saw on Faking it, the pendulum has swung the other way and Trainers are using kind, fair and effective techniques for dog training which are based on building a relationship with the dog rather than "me boss you do as I say" neanderthal man style :D

Perhaps the links below may be of help.

http://www.apdt.co.uk
http://www.flyingdogpress.com
http://clickertraining.com/training/dogs/

I've heard loads about this clicker training method, and have actually seen people doing it with horses (although think it is unnescessary with horses). What exactly is the clicker for? is voice not just as effective? (i'll take a look at those sites.. thank you).

The clicker is used as a signal to the dog/horse/dolphin etc that what it has done is correct and a reward is coming.  It is used instead of the voice in order for it to be distinguished above the normal verbal diarrhoea that a lot of handlers use :D

AAAHh i see... that makes sense. with Parelli he encourages us not to talk atall during play with our horses as they rarely 'talk' to each other. Interesting. :)

Hello all,

I have to say that I agree with some of you about Jan Fennel, I agree with some of her ideas, but not with a lot of them. And on the subject of 'forcing' dogs to do obedience type training, I could easily get rather cross about that. My dogs do obedience, and Tracking and Working Trials and I would never consider it 'forcing' them to do something that they didn't want to do.  They get positive rewards for everything that they achieve - they do it because they want to please me and get the reward for doing it.  Have you ever tried to get a dog to do a scale in Working Trials, or complete a track if they didn't want to?
I have always found that the Culture clash by Jean Donaldson, How Dogs Learn by Burch and Bailey and Man meets Dog by Konrad Lorentz among others are a far more informative read that the Jan Fennel book.
I also like any John Fisher book and The dogs Mind by Bruce Fogle.
Rant over.... ( I have to admit, that I had to go away and calm down before replying to this post.. :) )

Ali :)  

Well to be fair if that method is all that the poster has seen or experienced they will not have had an opportunity to see another side; I did not take it personally :D

My dog competes in "ticket" in WT, been placed in agility, is qualified in gundog tests of work, schutzhund, the showring, and is a registered PAT dog but has never had a choke chain on and has been entirely clicker trained.

I prefer the relationship we have built with this method.

Dont fret ali.. i was talking about old style dog obidience training.. not the kind methods! it looks to me that there are barely any trainers out there doing anything but nice kind methods. which is great. I have never had my dog formally trained (or taken it to training) before and have always done it alone. I think people do tend to get over excited and think things are personal on message boards, which it shoudlnt be!!

Hi MadMarch Hare, hope you enjoy CD. How many dogs have you got and what kind? I just have the one 17 month old Pointer X Greyhound called Morse being a late starter to dogs. Read Jan Fennel and found it a bit mushy. I like John Fisher and will be reading Bones from the Sky as soon as I can.

Hiya Lorelei! I have currently moved back with my parents temporarily so have the happy luck of living with lots of animals.  We have one dog Australian Cattle dog X Border Collie - but did have another who was 1/4 whippet and 3/4 border but at the age of 7 sadly had to be put down about 5 weeks ago as his cancer came back (on his elbow) and we could not amputate because we then discovered through exraying for more cancer that he had an enlarged heart. he was rapidly going down hill, so the kindest thing we could do was to put him to sleep. he was such a character and will be sorely missed.  Indy (the ACxBC thats left) is a lovely dog and will be joined tomorrow by our new puppy (Leonberger bitch) which will be very interesting! (in the past we have had mostly large dogs, so its great to have a large one again. Previously we had an irish wolfhound, bernese mountain dog (nuts), and Bouvier Des Flandres(adorable).
We also have two cats and two shetland ponies and one v old riding pony and a young quarter horse that we bred who is fantastic.
I've just ordered culture clash from amazon and cant wait to recieve it!

I read The Dog Listener too, and was impressed by the theory of amichien bonding, but putting it into practise was difficult at first because I felt as if I was ignoring my dogs all the time, but once you get into it you realise that you can give your dogs all the fuss you want to so long as it's on your terms and not the dog's. However after practising the "bonding" for a few months found that my dogs had changed beyond recognition, they were very well behaved, granted, but also seemed very depressed and low spirited. This business of ignoring them for 5 minutes when returning home. In the end they just stopped greeting me cos they knew they'd just be ignored, and they never approached me any more to ask for love and attention cos they knew that I was the one who had to initiate that sort of stuff. It sort of took the joy out of having them or having the spontanaity (sp?) that comes with having a dog as a pet. So I knocked it on the head. Jan Fennel reccommends that it's all or nothing and that amichien can't be mixed with traditional training methods, but that is exactly what I do and it works for us. I just use elements of "bonding" with mainly traditional training. My dogs are much happier these days too. :-)

Thats really interesting hearing that you didnt have good results. In fact i have just put the book back on sale on amazon!! after only having it for a day!
I do think that the ignoring thing must change the dynamic. our dog indy is the most delightful little chap who always comes up to ask for attention and sometimse makes little woofing sounds if he's not got your eye. its veyr funny, but can be annoying! it would be awful if he didnt feel he could come and chat when he wanted! i suppose the happy medium is vital.

I have just read your post (1 year on) as I am interested in the Dog Listener. You really have hit the nail on the head - i.e. a pet's life should be spontaneous. Alot of Jan Fennell's ideas did seem to be fine to me but I cant get my head around "ignoring" my dog when I walk in the house - what is better than see him excited to see me? I was really starting to think about starting some training on her lines, but your post has made me think otherwise. Thank you for making me think! I cant imagine my westie getting depressed when he is a fab dog, in every way possible. Why should I make his life miserable when all he wants to do is make me happy. I cant thank you enough!

Hi again,

I just re-read my post and agree that I over reacted a bit :) Sorry chaps.....Obviously had a hard day today....no offense intended.  I had just got in from exercising the dogs and watching some woman yank her Dalmation round on the biggest check chain you've ever seen, I couldn't just stand there and say nothing so I asked her if she wanted any help.  She swore at me and stomped off, dragging the poor dog behind her. .. I was so mad..... sorry if I took it out on you lot :)

Next time I'll get myself a large glass of something before I post anything:)
Ali :)

Poor you ali!
there is nothing worse than to see something like that (with me its usually a case of seeing people yanking their horses around with huge torturous bits!) and theres nothing much you can do apart from lead by example! ie my horse would go out on a hack with a completely loose rein and NO bit and be better behaved than some horses are with bits. my dog is not great out on a lead (but not agressive to other dogs i might add). but you usually have to wait till someone asks you - "how on earth do you get your horse/dog to behave so well" - then you can go... "well...".   Its THE most frustrating thing in the world. but its better than being sworn at!! it just shows that she knew she was in teh wrong.. you hit a nerve!

Hmmm...clearly never owned a male dalmatian :D :D I could cheerfully have throttled mine on several occasions - strong willed is not the word. At least she had the sense to use a big thick check chain, which will actually be kinder - not that it will make much difference to a determined dally :D I used a halti on mine and he would still walk 4 foot in front with his eyes shut :rolleyes:

Hi Tohme,

Alas, I have nothing to add to this thread, I work on my own way of training (mine will be the ones that constantly look for reward, before, after and whilst I eat :P ) Oh and they're good at taking hinges off doors :P

Totally off subject, WELCOME BACK :D it's been a very dull place without your advice ;)

Hope you're not thinking of abandoning us again, we need you :)

Um, that post from thome was from last year i think ;)

Thanks Chloe, there's always one :D and lately, it's always ME :P:

What a d******d, that will teach me, *MENTAL NOTE*.........Always look at the friggin date, must be too many late nights,  I knew I had a physical problem,  now I know I have a mental one :P :P

Sorry I am so lazy and feeling too tired to read the whole thread- just wanted to tell MadMarchHare that I had some problems with my Giant Schnauzer puppy and following advice form "experienced" people (usually rather brutal) only made it worse. Jan Fennel's book opened my eyes and changed my life, and the behaviour of my dog. Especially the gesture eating , which seems to get argued about a lot, worked wonders very quickly. Long gone are the days of a young dog not letting us near her food- in fact she now WANTS us to hold her bones for her, that way it's easier to eat without getting your paws dirty! :D

I also hate seeing horse ridden with a thousand and one bits and straps and gags on. I have been having lessons with a wonderful teacher for about 6 months, and she believes in asking the horse to work, not forcing it with the latest gadgets. I usually ride a rather bright and forward- going cob gelding, who has learned in the riding school that the thing to do is to gallop round the school and get into the back of the ride as quickly as possible. In fact, when I first saw this horse, he was charging around like this, and I thought I would never get on him! Well, somehow I ended up on him...My previous teacher kept yelling at me to hold him tighter and tighter, but I wasn't convinced that was the thing to do- the more you restrict him, the more he fights the bit. My current instructor started me off with this horse by riding on a long reign, and explained that the more you boss the horse around, the more this one refuses. Once I relaxed with him and stopped strangling him on the bit, I now only need to half-halt him and accepts the aid quite willingly. In fact, he has now started moving so softly and beuatifully for me, offering his back to me and holding his bit so softly. He is now my absolute favourite horse to ride, and a lot of people ask me why on earth I always want to ride him. I explain, that because he is simply a beautiful and sensitive animal with so much potential and riding him nowadays is extremely rewarding. I just wish that more people were willing to negotiate with the horse- have a conversation with it, not beat it into submission!

I work on positive reinforcement, nothing else.  I've had temper issues in the past which did no good at all - these actually led to my dogs actnig as Jan Fennel would perceive a "dominant dog" would act - really they jsut didn't want to pay attention to me or what I was doing, as they had experienced me getting upset with them in the past (NB: not badly, jsut shouting and the odd smack - none of which I do now).

I've just read the dog listener, and honestly, I'm not impressed - it's just the same old dominance theories (albeit the nicer version) republished.  I didn't see any mention of operant conditioning anywhere (correct me if there was, I didn't quite finish the book) - a key factor in the life of any dog.  She does mention reward based training - that I use - but not the learning principles behind it.

I have found with my dogs that if I am always pleasant to them, never punish them or yell at them, keep my voice happy, they are more than happy to do as I ask - I don't need to ignore them for 5 minutes or only pet them when i want to and so on.  My youngest (a 22 month rott X) has almost stopped jumping up in the space of a week - not because I ignore her, but because I click and treat her for staying on the ground.

I don't mean to completely debunk Fennel - I'm sure smoe of her work does have positive effects, certainly the approach she uses to separation anxiety cases I can't argue with - but I'm not a big fan of dominance theory at all - using it to explain each and every problem, as Fennel seems to, is IMO unrealistic - there is a lot more going on inside the heads of our dogs than "I want to be top dog".

What I would recommend is Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor - all about learning theory and positive, reward-based training.  I've only been reading it a few days and already my approach to my dogs is improving even more.  Agree also with whoever (sorry, memory like a sieve!!!) recommended The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson - an excellent read, the best dog-specific book I've read (Karen Pryor's book is for all mammals, people included).  The two together make for a brilliant relationship with any dog IMHO.

Agree with so much of what you say, Nikita :)

I use  operant conditioning, and it has made life so much easier. As you say, with reward based training, it's important to know about learning theory in order to be able to give consequences etc and  to help the dog understand. I have total confidence in this way of doing things.

Scamp, it's a long time since I've ridden, (got fed up of not having my own horse and riding school horses i felt sorry for) but I know exactly what you mean about the cob gelding, and about him getting worse the more he is bossed around and held tight. Same with my chosen canine breed, Belgians. Hard to force, (not that i do this, but some try to) very strong minded but very sensitive - a challenge, but if you can get it right, so much satisfaction, just as with your cob gelding you ride. Hopefully you are helping to show that riding such an animal is about getting on his wavelength and using good riding skills, empathy and not just force :)

Lindsay
X

i agree with nikita,whole heartedly.
scamp
re the horses, so horses go better with a slightly stronger bit,so it can be used "lightly".
trotting around in a school,is all very good for improving your postition etc, but have hacked him out in company?
we had many horses who were lively but senstitve in the school but lunies out on the hill. sometimes you "need" a little more no matter HOW good you are :)

Michelle, yes this horse can get quite strong out hacking, but boy are you in trouble if you simply try to glue his nose to his chest- this will just encourage him to pull even more! (just like my dog!!) And funnily enough, he is the only one that hasn't completely lost it and gone off with me in a mad gallop! :D My instructor always reminds me to check him, but also to reward him with a softer hand as soon as he listens, and I find that -although quite strong and needing a confident rider- he is perfectly controllable. I have no problem with halting him quite strongly if he is doing his steam train impersonation, as long as I reward him for listening to me as well. I am not one of those people who ooze such confidence that they can sit on just about any horse you give them, and would normally feel nervous of riding a forward-going horse, but this one I have grown to trust and love so much that I would buy him this very instant if he was for sale. (he is privately owned) My instructor thinks that the horse is actually quite talented and well schooled, because sometimes I seem to push all the right buttons and he goes into this "Grand Prix Dressage Mode" and moves  like the best of them, but a lot of the time he reverts back to his riding school habits of ignoring (or trying to) his rider and steaming around the school. :D Bless his heart, once he remembers that he is actually capable of doing so much more, he is actually very keen on working, but he does seem to need reminding...

As for feeling sorry for riding school horses... well I do agree with that, having visited a couple of other schools. I guess I am lucky to have a place so close by with a good selection of horses, all well cared for and looked after. I wouldn't have my (in future) horse working in a school though, because it is hard work, quite boring sometimes, and not all the little girls are quite so kind...