Hi all,
my Malinois had 14 puppies on Friday. One pup was stillborn so I have 13 of the little monsters in the whelping box at the moment. There are 5 females and 8 males. The stillborn pup was female.

No veterinary assistance was required, but this is the first litter where I have actually bought and used oxytocin at my own discretion. The oxy was a godsend and sped the birth up no end. I will post a diary of how I used it if any are interested.

All the pups are doing very well, but I feel and early weaning coming on :)

Catch you later

Ian

Congratulations on your litter. Are you in the UK? I didn't know one could just buy oxytocin and use it without vet's being involved. I would be interested to hear more please.

Luckily I have a whelping room designed with CCTV in the ceiling so on Thursday night I got up an couple of times and saw that Pepper's rate of breathing had increased. This is always a sure sign so on Friday morning I sat watching her on telly.

She went out about 10 times in 2 hours, she had the runs and was passing loads of urine which is also a sure sign that a pup is lying on the bladder.

Round about 11.30 am I watched her began to take more of her frustration out on the newspapers in her box, scratching the floor and ripping paper aggressively. This is how dogs in labour deal with the pain of contractions.

At 12.10 I went and sat in the room with her. I could se she was having rows of contractions, around 4 in a row. She was preferring to stand rather than lay down.

12.20. During contractions I could see her opening up and the black shape of a pup was starting to become visible.

12.22 Female born 336 grams in weight. Very strong, moving and breathing well.

Pepper sat with her pup and fed it for a while, this usually helps with the let down of further milk and progresses the further contractions.

13.10 Female born 379 grams in weight, again very strong pup.

13.50 Male born 399 grams in weight, big pup, very strong.

14.10 Female born 202 grams, a bit of a lightweight this one, Very strong, lots of body movement. No concerns.

There is now a big gap, I was considering giving a shot of oxytocin, but I held off, I could see from Pepper that she was still full of pups and did not want to place too much strain on her uterus.

16.00 Out for a walk.

16.25 Male born 355 grams, very strong pup.

16.30 Male born 219 grams, again a very strong pup for it's size.

16.36 Male born 317 grams, very strong.

Now again there is a little gap, but nothing to be concerned about. Went out for a walk.

17.35 Female pup born not breathing. The placenta around this pup was different to the rest, did not appear to have a blood supply and looked like cloudy egg white. Pepper removed the pup from the placenta, but strangely was not bothered that I took it from her to try and revive it.

I rubbed the pup vigorously and put Dopram V drops under it's tongue (this is a puppy breathing stimulant). I gave up after 10 minutes. The pups was grossly underweight at 134 grams.

17.57 After the stillborn pup I decided I wanted the birth to progress more quickly. I gave Pepper 0.7ml of Oxytocin into the muscle of her rear leg.

18.00 Strong abdominal contractions started.

18.10 Female born, 376. The biggest so far, what a bruiser. Very strong pup.

18.13 Female born, 305 grams. Good strong pup.

18.32 Male born, 371 grams. Another big strong pup.

Pepper now had a short rest where she fed all her pups and went out for a walk.

19.14 Male born, 415 grams this pup is huge and dwarfs the smallest in the pack. Very strong.

Again we have short gap. Pepper feeds her pups and goes for a walk. She is nearly falling asleep. I forgot to mention that every couple of hours Pepper get a Lucozade sport tablet to keep her energy up. But she is flagging.

20.00 Another shot of Oxytocin. It is 2 hours since the last one and I feel I am safe to give the low 0.7ml dose.

20.09 Male born, 375 grams. Very strong pup

20.50 Male born, 376 grams.

Pepper is now settled in feeding her pups and cleaning herself up. I feel her abdomen and she does not appear to have anymore pups.

I wait with her to make sure she is ok.

22.00 Anther .0.7ml of Oxytocin to clear out her uterus.

23.00 Happy that no more pups are coming I take Pepper out for a walk and a well deserved meal whilst my wife cleans up the whelping room and puts down the fresh vet bedding. Upon return Pepper seems quite pleased that the room and her pups are now spick and span.

We now have 13 pups. 8 males and 5 females. All are doing really well. We are now 2 days on, we appear to be over the worst.

Hope some people find things like this informative.

Ian

CONGRATULATIONS and very well done!:D

This makes excellent reading so much so that I actually sympathise with Pepper! Shame about the stillborn though but you've both done really well to have 13 healthy good size puppies!:) It was a bit of a nail biter reading the post during the waiting periods- couldn't have imagined how you felt!

Seriously though really well done, give yourself a pat on the pat and Pepper a pat on the head.;)

It is actually illegal in this country for anyone other than a vet (there are a few exceptions for farmers under the veterinary surgeons act) to give inta muscular or intra venous injections. Only sub cutaneous ones such as vaccines and microchipping are deemed safe to be carried out by non veterinarians.
I'm not suggesting that Ian is incompetent not by a long shot but thats the law as it stands.

Hi,
I am fully aware of the law on this matter. Buit given that my vet buys in his vaccine at arounf £5.00 per shot and then doles it out at £27.00 per shot and that I can give a shot of penecillin for around 15p and my vet charges around £15.00. Are you starting to get my drift.

I don't not advocate wholsale use by everyone, but I think there is a place in this country for lay people to do these jobs and stop that stinking veterinary monopoly. After all I am going to be trained and licenced to insert microchips int he next few months and having seen a vet insert a few of those I know which I would rather do.

Ian

I agree with Ian! After all you are obviously more than capable of knowing what to do and when! My friend works in a vets and she owns Rotties- the vet lets her bring her own stuff home to do herself (at the price they get it for), lets not forget she's only a veterinary nurse not a fully qualified vet! I use the same vets and get charged four times more than her for all mine!

qualified veterinary nurses that are listed with the royal veterinary college can give vaccines, i/m injections, take blood samples and help administer i/v anesthetics extract teeth,place i/v catheters etc, remove lumps as long as it doesn't involve entering a body cavity, under schedule 3 of the veterinary surgoens act, how do you think the rspca etc works a lot of lay staff give injections be it i/v. i/m, sub cut.
i think you might find that if you own the aniimal you can do what you like !!
so we are not only veterinary nurses !!!!

If you can get hold of the vaccine in the first place, it is in the vets interest not to do this.
Ted

exactly we all have to make a living and it is a veterinary surgery who pays my wages - i suppose you can't vaccinate your own children ? some things you just have to pay for ! my boss is brill - all our breeders get a 20% discount because it is our way of thanking them for passing on new clients etc. i know that it doesn't make it that cheap for everyone, but you then should include the price of the vaccine and service from the vet when you sell the puppy. if you don't get a very good service from your vet (or discount) change !

I didn't say I dont get a good service I just don't like paying for him to give a vaccine when I am quite capeable of doing it myself, let alone the time and hastle of taking the dog, waiting etc when I could do it without leaving home.
Ted

Are these injections harder to give than, say, insulin? cos I had to inject my cat with insulin for 4 years. She died 7 years ago but it cost me £40 for a month's supply at that time.

Just as an addition to this as she was an indoor cat and I was younger I didnt have her insured. I think we spent about £4500-5000 in vets fees etc over that 4 years so insurance is definitely a must isnt it. (We would have carried on paying for her for longer if only we had been able but she did die because of the diabetes in the end)

Regards Gina

why do we have veterinary surgeries - veterinary surgeons if we could do everything ourselves ??why do vets train for 5 years plus ? we need them for preventative health as much as treatment for illnesses - if you had toothache would you deal with it yourself or go to a dentist ? ok so we can self prescribe for certain things - but there are laws, rules and regulations that have to be followed. oxytocin is a hormonal drug which should be given by a veterinary surgeon or at least under his guidence. please do not advertise using these kind of drugs on a website where other people could be misled. ok a vet can charge what he likes more or less for his time - it is he/she who works 9-7 plus weekends as well as being on call for 24hrs should he not be paid a salary that reflects this - most vets i know work very hard and deserve the pay they get from charging clients for giving injections, vaccines etc as it was pointed out veterinary surgeries are private busineses - do you know how much money it costs to run a surgery etc etc etc not to mention the stress of the job.
insurance is a very good thing to have and i would recomend it to every pet owning person ! i/m injections are not that easy there are several arteries in the back leg that could cause major problems if injected in too. not to mention overdosing, and mis-usage in the wrong hands.
sorry to go on but i think it is wrong that everyone slates vets for making a living several of my animals wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them.

I wouldnt dream of slating vets they are as necessary as doctors. And of course the postal code must reflect the price. I cant believe how cheap the one is that I have now compared to the one I had in SW1. And if I had my choice I would stay with the SW1 vet as he is the one who has known my animals for the last 25 years. They do a wonderful job. What I was trying to say, unsuccessfully, was that insulin is relatively cheap and was left in my hands to give the injection and I just wondered if they were the same sort of injection but obviously there is a difference and this should be taken into account. Regards Gina
PS The nurses are brilliant too. I get so much info from them too when I am in the surgery

Vets are lifesavers, but there are some things that can safely be done by a knowledgable person. Giving vaccinations to puppies is not a hard or complicated operation. It seems that in the UK things are very regulated. The whole bit about major arteries in the back leg is very helpful to know, that is why not just anyone should do this, but it can be easily taught. It is widely done here in the US by breeders. And actually you can be looked down on if you don't possess the guts to do it yourself. If you can whelp a litter of puppies, than you can handle giving the vacs yourself. I wouldn't want to bring one of my healthy young pups to the vets office unless they needed Vet assistance, this does not mean vacs. I could unknowingly subject my pups to the illnesses that I would be trying to protect them from. Does that make sense? I think it makes perfect sense. Please remember that this board is not just seen in the UK, and some countries have different laws and ways of doing things.

Hi Chloe,
I don't think anyone would list you as "just veterinary nurses". I honestly have more respect for the nurses than the vets now.

I have been aware for a long time how you are now qualified to perform minor surgery etc. I am so interested I am actually considering going back to school if there is a college near me that does veterinary nursing.

Keep up the good work.

Ian

Of course I would go to a dentist for toothache but I wouldn't go to the dentist for the toothpaste to prevent the toothache.
Certainly some people would not like to give injections but there are many people that are quite capeable (it really isn't rocket science) to give IM or Sc injections.
Ted

so be if thats what you want to do - i just hope nothing goes wrong for you when you give a vaccine etc as any animal can have an allergic reation to live vaccines then what do you do ?????? ok so you might think you know how to give a injection i/m / i/v but i would leave it to people who are properly trained and have the necessary equipment to deal with problems if they occur ( i have seen 3 adverse reations in puppies to vaccines in the last 2 months !) this can prove fatal !

Ian,
good luck in finding a vet nurse course it really is a rewarding job,
and thankyou for sticking up for us nurses !
and how are those puppies ? how did we get so far off the original post ?? (apart from me blabbing on ??)

>>I take Pepper out for a walk and a well deserved meal whilst my wife cleans up the whelping room and puts down the fresh vet bedding.<<

Same old story :D

Hi,
I knew someone would say that :)))) Pepper is from a very high drive guardign breed. The truth is that I am the only person she will allow near her at the moment. My wife just thought it was safer to stay with the pups and not go walking about on the 300 acres of desolate farm tracks at the back of the house at midnight.

It's not gender thing, honest.

Ian

Congratulations, I have just reared a litter of fourteen Rottweiler puppies, unbelievably hard work but so very rewarding ( and Im sure my back will straighten one day!)

Congratulations on your litter Ian. All that extra effort paid off then :-) I note that you will only sell your malinois to 'professional' bodies, good for you! The amount of malinois being imported for work, from Belgium etc at the moment is huge. I have yet to see these dogs work in the flesh, but I have seen video's of them working in europe and they are very impressive :-)

Hi Leigh,
I have to be very careful where the Malinois go. It took me a long time to find a malinois from working lines and a lot more money than this litter is worth to get her back into the country.

I am lucky, some of the top police units in the country are very interested in this litter. I have one bitch going to a very good competative obedience home. The people are millionaires and have kept and bred working GSD's for years so I don't think they well be a bad home for one.

I know there are a few other young working Mal bitch's in the country at the moment and eventually they will be prolific, but if I can stop one of my dogs beign used to guard a druggies house then I will.

Ian

ICongratulations.....That's alot puppies, equivalent to about three or four whelpings at the same time in the smaller breeds. Who is more
exhaused you or the mum?
I for one,. would love to read the diary.....don't leave out anything...I'll be watching for it.
All the best

Congratulations on your little hoard! Hope everything goes really well for you.
My vet gave me an injection of oxytocin also, and it was alife saver for my little girl, she didn't have the energy or the impetus from the pup to get it out, and it really helped matters. Bit nerve-wracking giving it though

With oxytocin in is important that you make sure that there is no obstruction to the next birth - not always easy to check out. If the bitch is forced to strain on a blockage you could get a ruptured uterus.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi Jo,
I will post in more detail later, but Pepper had produced 4 pups I think before I gave her the first shot, I will give dosage when I post later. She seemed highly dialated she was standing up and the pups were just falling from her. Even prior to the oxy at one stage she had 3 pups in 10 mins, but after the still birth things slowed down and I decided to use the oxytocin the get the pups out more quickly.

I would be very worried about using it on a bitch that had not yet produced a puppy or two. I think at that stage it is time to call the vet. My vets are very good, they give free advice over the phone. But needless to say I did not buy a 25 ml bottle of oxy from my vet. Could you imagine that. My oxy cost 75p per shot ad vet would want to charge at least 10 times that ammount.

I am quite open with my vet and tell him I buy these things, at one stage he said he did not blame me and went on to give advice on their use.

I buy all my own vaccines and antibiotics. But I must stress that there comes a time when they have to go to the prffessionals. It is just that I am not one of these people who runs to the vet at every minor mishap. Vets quickly target these people and start loading the bill with unneccessary pills and creams. We must all remmber our vets are not the NHS they are in business and it is in their best interests for your pet to be ill. My vet did not get a top of the range sports car from turning people away at the first consultation.

But again I must stress, I would not hesitate to go to the vet if I felt the least suspicion that something was more that a minor problem that I could treat with antibiotics etc.

Ian

Ian

Ian, How do you get vaccine and antibiotics without going to a vet . I agree with you about not seeing a poor vet and would be happy if I could get these without paying over the odds and wasting time on a trip to the vets when I am quite capeable of giving an injection such as a booster. I heard the other day that due to EEC rules we soon will have to buy wormers from a vet too and that agricultural merchants etc will not be allowed to sell them.
Ted

As far as using oxytocin, I use it with every whelping. Never until there are at least one puppy sucessfully born. To do it sooner can rupture the uterus. I give a small amount in the back leg muscle( never fun to give).
It can take up to 40 minutes to work (cause I don't usually give a big dose). It also gives me the relief of knowing that no puppies or placentas remain. Over here it's easy and so affordable to give your own shots. I'm glad I don't have to take new pups out to a vet and expose them to disease. That is awful that it's so strict over there. Soon you won't be able to buy wormer except at the vets, sounds like a conspiracy to me (lets get the vets really really rich!)

Can only buy frontline from the vets or on a vets prescription, for which you are charged, from a veterianry chemist. Frontline for 250ml Spray costs over £20, I get it on holiday from a vet for about £8!!

theres a number for someone in ireland that sells a lot of stuff you and i wopuld have to go to the vets for

Congradulations!!!

I would preffer to answer email privately re where I get my oxy and vacciantions.

ian@briarquest.co.uk

Sorry but I am worn out just reading! Well done and hopefully this should be a shining example to those who think "well letting her have pups is easy" What can I say but I am astounded I knew breeding was hard work but work pales into insignificance with your post.

I'm sure you could probably see some great vacs for sale on line, but probably wouldn't be able to have it shipped there(big glitch in the plan!)