Hi Folks

Have been feeding various brands of complete food for years but I now have a Field Spaniel who seems to have a gluten allergy, we have solved the problem by feeding Arden Grange and I am over the moon with it. My cockers are also now on Arden Grange.

However, every time I go to the supermarket I contemplate putting a pack of chicken wings into my trolley, but I never actually dare do it. Am I worrying about nothing? I was thinking raw chicken wings would be a better way to serve calcium and phospherous to my puppies and lactating bitches than supplements, but I am REALLY worried that they might choke, my dogs are VERY good eaters and I am worried they would try to swollow it whole!

Any advice gratefully received.

Don't worry :) My older dog was a real wimp when I first gave him a chicken wing. He licked it, mouthed it, carried it around - didn't really seem to know what to do with it. Eventually he swallowed it whole and promptly brought it all up again. He then refused to touch any lumps of raw meat - (he had always eaten the minced raw meat from AMP). I gave up :( Later when we got our pup, I decided to give the chicken wings another go and it was marvellous what some competition did. A year or two later, he wolfs them (and any other bones) down, properly chewed :)

We got there in the end :)

Daisy

Hi,

If you are worried about feeding whole bones you can grind them.  I don't feed my dog raw meat or bones, however, I have several friends who do.  Not everyone who goes the BARF route feeds whole bones.  If you are using chicken wings the bones and meat should go through a good meat grinder, or a food processor.

You can also buy pulverized bone.  I can't recall the manufacturer, but I bought a tub of bone meal at Pets at Home several months ago.

Stacey

That first step IS scary!  When I changed over I kept imagining all sorts of horrible things :D  2 1/2 years on and I would never return.

You can minimise your fears by a) bashing the chicken wing or cutting it into 3 with kitchen scissors or poultry shears,  b) holding on to it so the dog crunches it or c) just giving it to your dog when you are going to be around and don't be surprised or distressed if the dog does swallow it whole; it will no doubt reacquaint itself with it and munch it a bit more first!  Dogs have to learn how to cope with raw food if all they have been used to is a bowl of extruded bits.

Occasionally you get the odd dog that looks at it and does not realise it is food!

I am not going to say that feeding RMBs is risk free but ANY type of feeding has its risks; you have to weigh them up and assess which is more important to you.  All I can say from my point of view is that I have never had any problems from Day 1.

Don't know if that helps or not :)

ps bonemeal is cooked and can contain large amounts of lead.

If you do decide to feed bone meal (not something I would recommend) then make sure it is not the gardening version

Christine

Tohme,

Bonemeal manufactured for consumption does NOT contain large amounts of lead.  It's a different product than the stuff sold for gardening.   Ground bone is used in several dog foods, Naturediet, for example.  No lead.

Stacey

i was also worried about giving my boys whole RMBs like wings, thighs carcass etc and used to grind them up myself or get the supplier i get my carcass from to grind them for me.  after a while, (a long while really) when we were away racing and i could not grind them up i would just give the wings etc a good bashing with a hammer to make sure all the bones were fairly well mashed up.  my oldest is a very greedy dog, but i have found that even he will chew his bones up quite carefully and i have never had a problem with them swallowing bits that are too big. 
i think i recognise your affix and think that you live in the preston lancs area?  if so i can pass on the details of the poultry supplier who does grind carcass, might be easier to start of that way and gradually progress to feeding whole rmbs once the dogs systems are used to the new diet,
kelly
forgot to say i would not recommend giving just minced meat and bone meal as an alternative to a real meaty bone

My Springers first episode with a chicken wing was a "swallow whole, bring back up and then chew properly" affair so I'd hold them for her while she chewed, just for a week or so until she got used to them (and I got over the shock :D)  I leave her to get on with it now but I stay in the room while she eats them.

Kath.

Thanks everyone for your helpful comments, well I have been and bought the things and they are sitting in the fridge...off to find a hammer now and mash them up first...also, I have a 9 week old puppy - when will she be able to manage chicken wings? She really LOVES raw meat..have also managed to get Charlie the "domestic one" to try raw mince and you are right, it's surprising what a little competition does, before the pup arrived she wouldn't touch raw meat.
I have fed bonemeal for years but my dogs hate it, I always end up adding "tasty" stuff to make them eat it. I have since given Calcium tablets which Charlie will eat whole, but none of the others are this daft!
Another thing, I have heard that pork is not good for dogs...is this true? What about pork sausage?

Thanks again folks, will let you know how things go!

p.s. yes Preston, Lancs...supplier details would be great, do you have to buy "bulk" ?

They can start on chicken wings straightaway.  If you are feeding raw with bones then you should NOT add any bonemeal or calcium tablets; they are completely superfluous and unecessary, all the calcium that is needed can be taken in by the bones.  I would feed Vitamin C as this helps with bone formation and puppies will not yet be synthesising the amount they need.

Pork is fine, I would not feed sausages as there is a lot of cereal in sausage.

My mum is terrified of feeding our new 11week old leonberger pup with chicken wings yet. so far with her breeder she has been fed cooked mince(turkey or beef) mixed with either iams (evil) or James welbeloved puppy kibble - which scares me as kibble is so easy to choke on.  I also took in someone elses point that although this raw diet is what wild dogs would have, that domestic dogs have been eating our scraps for thousands of years. although i'm not sure really that their digestive system has changed in any way since they were wild. i wish someone woudl do tests!

Tohme - should we gradually introduce her to raw? we've not cooked the mince hardly atall now (my god does it stink when cooked) and i thinks he will like that fine. its the bone bit - what do you feed a puppy (particularly of a giant breed who get growing probs etc) so that she gets all that she needs?

Why don't you join some of the forums that exist for raw feeding such as BritBarf on Yahoo in the UK to put your mind at rest?  I know lots of breeders who wean their puppies onto raw straightaway from toy breeds to giant breeds.

Look at it this way, you have seen the size of lions/wolves?  They have massive bone and a good physique, they don't get supplements, kitten/puppy/junior food etc etc etc! 

Their digestive system has NOT changed at all, we just keep clogging it up with stuff they do not need!

If you feed your puppies with chicken wings, bashed if necessary they will get all the calcium they need.  A good book is Grow your pup with bones by Ian Billingshurst.

HTH

Thank you yet again tohme! I will check out the yahoo group straight away. i just got the normal barf book of ian billinghurst today - its got a litle about puppies, but not much. i'm sure i can find out lots on yahoo though. its amazing wha tyou can find!

I weaned my last litter of Dobermanns straight onto chicken wings - well to be more accurate they just sucked at and played with them for the first week or so but by six weeks could eat most of them (they also had minced meat, veg, fruit, eggs etc) and will do the same with my next litter.

My big dogs have chicken wings but was a bit worried about giveing the yorkie and the Tibetan spaniel them but we tryed and the manage them fine

Tohme,

No one said digestive systems have changed over 25,000+ years.   What has changed is the structure of their jaws and teeth - domestic dogs no longer have the crushing power that their ancestors did to handle bones. Not all of this is man tampering directly with structure.  (Even human structure has changed over the same period of time as a result of changing diets.) Which is why BARF'ers tend to feed the softer, smaller and nonweight baring bones.

The composition of dogs diets changed over those many thousands of years.  For example, instead of hair and undigestible bits from an entire carcass providing roughage, some roughage was provided from grain,veg, fruit that a wild candid would either not have access to or would not eat in its raw state. It's what was left from human meals or bits deemed not edible by people.   It's the pet food industry that has taken this to the extreme, not in the interest of dogs health, but in the interest of providing cheap filler.  

Stacey

Dogs would soon be able to build up their jaws though - i know that terriers and alike have incredibly powerful jaws and wouldnt have any problem munching ona bone! plus my friends have four dogs, one being a german shepherd and he bites through turkey legs like they were butter. they just need to develop the muscles again. its no wonder their jaws have got weaker though because we feed them stuff which doesnt develop/strengthen them in any way. :)

Turkeys are easy, try biting through the leg of a mature stag like butter, even a GSD would find it hard going. :-)  Muscles do get stronger with use, but if you compared a fit GSD today with a grey wolf, the wolf would win the crunch test every time.

I am not arguing against BARF. And if you think that the benefits of raw bones and raw meat outweighs the risks, then so be it.   We all do what we think best for our dogs.  If I was given the choice of the BARF approach or Frolic I would choose BARF, without hesitation.  However, in my opinion there is a middle ground between BARF and commercial foods like Frolic.  (Not saying Frolic is the worst, it may be .. but it is certainly the most colourful!)

Stacey

I would have to say that the smelliest is definitely Chappie - YUK YUK YUK. no wonder some dogs stink!

I agree, there is definitely a middle ground - and i'm not downing anyones right to choose either way, i was only writing my opinion.:)

Well we fed our wee girl with her first raw chicken wings today (having fed her veggie pulp mixed with minced chicken at lunch which she adored) and she was a natural - she loved the wings and wanted more. Not sure how many we should be giving her, but old ian billinghurst says for giant breed pups it should be about 5% of her bodyweight a day.

when u say chicken wings, do they just come in pre-packed little things with "chicken wings" on the label ? i'm not sure what im supposed to be buying...
i'm an ignorant vegetarian sorry !

sarah
x

lilylaru - if you go to the butcher (if you can handle the meat everywhere!) or the supermarket you can get chicken wings there (should say chicken wings, or wings and thighs on teh supermarket packets).  Also its worth buying oneof the books on Barf feeding (check out ones by ian billingshurst) (just type 'barf' into amazon and it will give you some books on it - or go here - quite interesting site about barf... www.rawlearning.com

Bloomin good of you to want to feed your dawg with meat - my sisters workmate feeds her dog a 'veggie' diet. which i think is just SO wrong.

So many people here have said that their vets recommend Chappie I am constantly picking up cans of the stuff in the supermarket.  I read the label .. and then put it back down on the shelf again.  

I also spend in incredible amount of time at Pets at Home reading the labels on dry complete - the staff must think I'm nuts.  I never buy any of it. 

Guess I must be hoping some day the ingredient lists will change so they don't say "derivatives, or list grain five different times, or EEC approved antioxidants .. or whatever  .. :-)  

Stacey

man.. ive just defrosted some tripe. I never realised it smelt of cow poo!! YUUUUKKK!!! well their breath is going to be just great on that isnt it!! bleuagh!

Yeah its shocking some of the ingredients in the dried foods. its unreal. even the 'good' ones have derivatives in them but they are higher grade, but still so far removed from real meat or anything.

Stacey, our vet actually recommended chappie too - god knows why!

Stacey I would like to see some evidence that can quantify your statement that domestic dogs no longer have the crushing power that their ancestors did?  If that is so, how and when did this come about, what experiments were made to measure this decline?

Having run "criminal" for some dogs I find it difficult to believe the validity of this outlook and find the crushing power of a dog on a sleeve more than adequate for coping with bones of any sort :D

Just thought I would upate you all...

I took the rolling pin to a chicken wing before presenting it to Charlie the Field Spaniel who spat it out in disgust...I then gave it to Georgia (Cocker Spaniel) who is currently nursing a litter of 7, and she swollowed the WHOLE thing...I was HORRIFIED!!!!!!!! I tried to keep hold of it but she pulled and it slithered right out of my hands! She then began to cough and I have never felt so scared.....then the chicken wing "re-appeared" and before I could take it off her she was crunching it up and swollowing it. She has never enjoyed anything so much I am sure! So today she had another, but this time I made sure I kept hold of it while she crunched it up and swallowed it piece by piece. I am really pleased with myself as I now realise I had nothing to worry about. Am I OK giving her 1/day? She currently weighs 14.3kg.

The 8 week old pup loved swinging it about and pulling the skin off it but thats about all she manages as yet.

I don't htink I'll be switching to raw completely but I do feed more raw than processed dog food. Can someone tell me if the frozen nature....diet???? Is gluten free?

Thanks folks for giving me the conifdence to try wings :-)

I think if she is nursing she should definitely have more than just a wing a day. Our leonberger pup who is 12 weeks old is having much more than that (i realise pups need more than adults) but she weighs 14kg already herself (and she can nearly swallow a whole leg - i bash them up too)! I dont know how much yours should get as an adult dog that size, but a friend of mine feeds her border collie on just one thigh a day and any more and he gets fat. So i would have thought a springer who is feeding pups would need more than that.

Help me out BARF experts! (it might be worth buying a book on it lourisma - the ian billinghurst ones are good, type 'barf' into amazon!).:)

Some links with info for feeding raw, also best thing is to buy some books & join some groups :)

http://www.willowglen.com/barf.htm
http://touchmoon.com/dotters/raw/index.shtml
http://www.auntjeni.com/barf.htm
http://www.rawlearning.com/

Christine, Spain.

I have recently changed my two pus over to raw and they LOVE it. I don't feed chicken wings as they are more bone thatn meat and small bones at that, I would recommend more meaty bones and the larger the bones the better that way they can just inhale the food. To be honest I think that grinding the bones defeats the purpose as the chewing helps maintain great teeth, and also smashin bits of bone can cause them to splinter and be sharp.

Bones are actually quite soft and a dog with a healthy set of jaws will have no problem chewing them up. Also make sure you feed organ meats (ie liver etc) as these contains lots of nutrients.

This yahoo group is great to join. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding

Chicken wings are recommended precisely BECAUSE they contain the correct meat to bone ratio :D  Very large bones such as verterbrae and shin bones should be used ONLY for recreational purposes.