A friend and neighbour of ours has got a cocker spaniel who is nearly one.....He was very laid back and nothing phased him. A few weeks ago he was attacked by a collie and a Westie, not at the same time though..  Last week she was on the beach with Emmas dog Indie, also a cocker, when a little pup who was out for the first time came over, and he went for it, She had to pick him up as he meant business.
Then again today, he was on the fields with my dog Nell and hubby,he has known her since he was a baby. He went for Nell, of course Nell gave no reaction at all,and carried on playing,cos she's a big softie. Maria called Blue over and told him off. Then he carried on playing as if nothing had happened.
She has just messaged me to say he has just weed on the floor which he never does. Could this be due to his hormones? and could the snapping a snarling be because he was bitten?? Any advice please on how to deal with this situation.

My dog was attacked on two occasions before he was 6 mths old and this made him very nervous of other dogs. When he started to mature he started play nip other dogs whilst we were out walking. This gradually progressed from play nipping to fetching blood, the last time resulting in the other dog needing stitches. It was then that we realised we had a problem on our hands as he could no longer be trusted around other dogs. I mean for God's sake he's a whippet! known for being whimps, but the last dog he took on was a Rottie! We were told to give him a squirt of water under his chin when he showed signs of becoming agressive towards other dogs. This didn't work for us as he loved it! but it's worked for other people we know. What does work with him is to give him treats when we come across other dogs whilst out (we also used put him on the lead the minute we saw another dog approaching) Now whenever we see another dog he comes running to us to get his treat and we just keep dropping the treats for him until the other dog has gone. I don't think he'll ever be able to play and interact with other dogs the way his brother does, but at least we are managing his agressive behaviour. I only wish we had done this from the start when he was just play nipping before he got the taste for blood.

A dog that plays with 50 different freindly dogs a week and gets 'attacked' by one is less likely to be affected by the bad experience than one that meets, say, 2 dogs and one is freindly and one isn't.  Which is why it is so important to socialise dogs with other dogs as much as possible during the first year of their life. 

It isn't fair to tell a dog off or punish him for feeling the need to defend himself.  Even though the next dog he meets is not a potential threat he doesn't know that.  Getting cross with him will very possibly make him worse.  If the presence of another dog makes him fearful AND makes his owner angry then he will try a lot harder to make the dog go away.

He needs to either be allowed to mix with lots of really freindly laid back dogs and avoid the horrible ones in the hope that he will get his confidence back or he should be taught to walk away and ignore other dogs.  They should try to find someone who works with this sort of problem without going down the punishment route.  If you search for APBC or APDT you should find someone near you.

The weeing on the floor could be anything - wouldn't like to hazzard a guess other than it being connected to an angry owner.

Sally

Hi Sally, thanks for your reply.  Blues mum is deffinatly not an angry owner, just a concerned one.

Barb

Sorry wasn't implying anything other than stressing the need not to tell him off

hi Sally, its just that this was so out of character for this little chap. And he has been well socialised with other dogs, not to mention my very large lab Nell.

Barb

Yes, I know what you mean Nelsmum. We didn't think that the attacks on our dog Haz had affected him as he still played nicely with all the other dogs afterwards. It was when he hit maturity that his agression started to show. They came from a large litter, we're still in touch with the breeders who in turn stay in touch with a lot of the people who bought the rest of the litter and nobody else has had a an agression problem. We socialised both our dogs really well so we put it down to the attacks on him when he was a pup.

If he has been well socialised and is normally laid back then I'm sure he'll be fine as long as he can carry on mixing with your Nell and similar dogs who won't take any notice of his silliness BUT Maria should avoid reacting to it.  If the problem is with other dogs then it is far better to let them help Blue without owner interference.  If she is at all worried that it is getting worse or that she cannot let him interact with other dogs then she should seek help from someone who is experienced in these matters or it could get worse.

Sally

Hi all

I felt it was time to introduce myself, i'm Bluesmum and very kindly, Nelsmum posted this thread for me.
As i have now registered i am able to reply to your responses.

I was not at all angry with Blue for growling I merely told him no, had him sit then released him to play again with Nell, he played for at least another half an hour before i brought him home and an issue was never made of it. He has always been such a loving and friendly dog and we've never had any problems with him before, infact we've thought ourselves to be quite lucky bacause he's got such a lovely way about him.

He has not quite gone for a dog yet but has growled as a warning and i,m concerned as its so out of character for him to be this way.

I usually only give advice if someone asks for it.  Perhaps I shouldn't have answered this one.  If you came to me with your dog and told me exactly what Nell's mum said in the original post then I would use my dog(s) to help your Blue.  Whilst the dogs were conversing I would be able to explain why it would not be a good idea to tell him 'no' for growling at another dog.  However it is too complex an issue to solve via the written word which is why I said seek help.  If you go to someone who suggests punishment or aversion for growling at another dog then you may end up with a dog that cannot mix.

Sally

Sally - I'm glad that you replied to this post as any help that i get is appreciated and if Blue does this again then i will ignore the behaviour and hopefully it will pass, i just didn't want you to think of me as an "angry owner" as this i definately am not, i was wondering if this could have anything to do with his age? - He'll be a year old next month.
Could it be hormones do you think?

Could be.  Could be to do with the incidents with the Collie and the Westie.  Could be that he didn't like the puppy.  When he writes his memoirs perhaps we'll find out ;) 

You cannot just ignore the behaviour and hope it will pass, that isn't exactly what I meant.  What I was trying to get across is that you don't need to react and tell him off.   Let him mix with dogs like Nell who we have already established won't care two hoots if he growls and whose owner wouldn't expect you to tell him off if he was silly.  If a dog has a problem with another dog it is often to do with how the owners react or deal with it, in my experience.  Not always, but often.  With experience you will recognise which dogs to avoid and which to let him say 'hi' to.

Sally

I would have thought Blue would be fine with Nell as he has been since he was attacked and played fine with no problem at all except for today?

What would you suggest if you thought he was going to take things further than a warning? not that i think he would but i would rather be prepared just incase the situation ever did arise.

The other day I was sat by the river feeding the ducks, alongside my husband who was reading a book.  A bloke came and sat down next to me.  I felt uncomfortable and moved closer to my husband and this guy moved closer to me.  I gave him a filthy look but he put his arm round me so I jumped up and hit him with the bag of bread.  With that my husband got hold of me and told me not to be so rude to this poor man. His wife was there too and she said he was only being friendly.  As my husband dragged me off to the car muttering under his breath about what an unsociable bitch I was I noticed this man doing the same thing to someone else.   Not really, only kidding. ;)

But if that had happened I hope that my husband would have noticed this weird couple walking towards where we were sat and suggested we head off.  Or at least noticed that I was feeling uncomfortable when he sat down next to me.  If not then maybe it would have been good if he had seen the dirty look I gave the guy or failing that it would have been nice if he had said to the woman after I had beat her husband about the head with a bag of bread ' I'm sorry about my wife but your husband was a bit rude'. :D

Sally

What an excellent simile, Sally! I can never understand why dogs are expected to be friends with everyone and everything when we don't do the same ourselves.

your point meaning???  Sally

Barb

your point meaning???  >>What would you suggest if you thought he was going to take things further than a warning? not that i think he would but i would rather be prepared just incase the situation ever did arise. 

As he has had no problems up to now and he is a well socialised dog continue to let him meet other dogs but if you see someone walking into the park with a dog that he may find too much because of his bad experience with the collie and westie then walk in the other direction with him.  If he is playing with or just sniffing butts with a dog and you notice him getting uncomfortable then say 'lets go Blue' in a happy voice and walk away with him.  If he growls at a dog then say 'lets go Blue' in a happy voice and jog away with him.  If he snaps at a dog, don't blame him just say 'lets go Blue' in a happy voice and run away with him.

Sally

Thank you very much for your last reply Sally, although i dont see why you couldn't say that in the first place without being so rude.

I registered on this forum hopefully to get some advice out of concern for my dog, I certainly didnt expect silly and rude remarks, I thought that this forum was there to help peolple such as myself with dog behaviour problems!

I was always brought up to believe that if you cant say anything nice...................dont say anything at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry didn't think using an analogy was being rude.

So what do you do Sally if when you say in your happy voice "let's go" but they just stay there and start a fight? This is what used to happen to me. What did I do wrong to make my dog aggressive? I thought it was because in the begining when he started to "play nip" I didn't tell him off, but on the whole ignored him, but you say this is the right thing to do. Now I'm confused, any advice for me please. :P pretty please :P

You need to be sure that 'lets go' would have the desired response.  I'm sure you didn't make your dog aggressive Harriett but it is really difficult to advise on aggression without seeing the dog.  I didn't say ignoring was the right thing to do. I think I said earlier on this thread it's no good just ignoring behaviour but there are more options than ignore or tell off.  I think if my dog was play nipping other dogs then I would probably try to get him to do something more useful and less likely to get him into trouble, like playing retrieve games with me.  Every single dog I see with aggression problems is different from the last.  We have several dogs here that we use as stooges.  Which dog or dogs we use will depend on the dog in question.  If we are unsure about how a dog is going to be, and we only have the owners interpretation of the problem, then we trust our dogs to tell us, just as they trust us to keep hold of the long line.  They will initially avoid a dog that will have a go, they will ignore a shy dog but that shy dog will usually start copying them being a dog and become more confident around them.  A bolchy teenager will usually be invited to have a race around the field and then when they are puffed Monty will tell them to calm down earlier next time.  Some dogs will never mix but a lot can be helped. 
Sally

I'm sure Sally didn't mean to be rude. It often helps me, in these situations, to take a step back and put myself in my dog's situation. How would I react?

>>It isn't fair to tell a dog off or punish him for feeling the need to defend himself<<     But Blue wasn't defending himself.  Nell was just playing with him therefore I would say it was quite reasonable for Maria to tell him off.

>>Let him mix with dogs like Nell <<  He went for Nell, who was a familiar friend and only playing with him!

>> if you see someone walking into the park with a dog that he may find too much because of his bad experience with the collie and westie then walk in the other direction with him<<  How will she know which dogs will be too much for him? Are you saying she has to avoid every dog she thinks he may attack or may attack him?

Kath.

I guess it was a situation where you needed to be there and be able to read each dog's body language. There are plenty of mis-interpretations of the written word in the same language - the possibilities of getting it wrong with another species are endless!

But yes, a good dog owner can 'read' their own dog and will know when they aren't happy with a situation, and will intervene in time before the sitaution escalates into violence. And we all get it wrong sometimes!
:)

>>It isn't fair to tell a dog off or punish him for feeling the need to defend himself<<     But Blue wasn't defending himself.  Nell was just playing with him therefore I would say it was quite reasonable for Maria to tell him off.

You don't know why he did it.  I don't know why he did it.  But I am quite experienced at reading dogs with tendancies towards aggression because it is what I do for a living so I might be able to tell you if I saw him interacting with another dog.  And whatever the reason telling him off his not the answer which is why I used the anology to illustrate this.

>>Let him mix with dogs like Nell <<  He went for Nell, who was a familiar friend and only playing with him! 

Have you never argued with a freind?

>> if you see someone walking into the park with a dog that he may find too much because of his bad experience with the collie and westie then walk in the other direction with him<<  How will she know which dogs will be too much for him? Are you saying she has to avoid every dog she thinks he may attack or may attack him?

Okay - lets say a guy walks into the park with a large dog (and I am not going to be breed specific on Champdogs ;) ) and it is pulling on the lead, barking, jumping about like a lunatic and the guy is shouting at it. - Thats the one to avoid.  The dog that is off lead with it's head down, sniffing, relaxed, fairly close to it's owner is probably okay.  If you have a dog that has had a bad experience then it is worth being observant and learning about the body language of a dog.

Sally

Since my comments have been completely disregarded by one and all, and not one person has answered my plea for advice I'll just F**K off then shall I? Thanks a lot all.

whoooaaa.  I was writing it.

Harriet

There is no need to be like that. Often if a thread is started by someone and like yourself you ask a question in the same thread, it can often be missed because people are trying to help the original poster. Can I suggest maybe if you have a specific behavioural problem you might like to post a seperate thread and I am sure people will be along to help you. Lets try and keep this amicable and keep the answers coming without people taking things to heart :) People are only trying to help and often without seeing the dogs behaviour first hand it is very difficult to give a full and comprehensive solution :)

Lucy

I agree, Lucy :)

In fact i thought that Sally had replied to Harriet, or at least that's how i read it.

Lindsay

Harriet,  I notice that you have his brother also.  That could have a bearing on the problem.  I have come across dogs who as puppies spent all day play fighting with a sibling and subsequently became aggressive towards other dogs.  I also see siblings who in a group of other dogs seem to be joined at the hip so although they are in the company of other dogs they are not socialising.  I would never recommend having 2 dogs of the same age together unless you are able to take them out and train them separately.  I have 2 young rescue collies with a 1 month age gap.  They go out together only very, very occasionally.  I am not assuming that any of the above applies to you so please don't bite. :)

Sally

I apologise for  being stroppy. I did take the time and trouble to answer the original poster to tell her about how we cope with our dog's aggression and got a little narked when it wasn't aknowledged in any way. Even a thanks but you are talking s***e would have done, but you are right I was too touchy.

It was like this: An old lady dropped all her shopping on the pavement, I stopped to help and so did another person. All the time we were picking up her groceries she was talking to the other person and thanking her for helping, Neither said one word at all to me. At the end, the old lady complained that the other person had put her tomatoes right at the bottom of a bag so they would be squashed. I asked the other person for directions to a shop, but the other person just walked away without a word, although she did come back with a map later.

I do love allegories, and I think you explained how a dog would feel perfectly with yours Sally, and thankyou for replying.

ooopps sorry Harriet, i didn't mean to ignore you!! i was just reading  the posts and waiting for the replies  to finish.

I am not in the habit of being ignorant!!!  It must have been one of my senior moments.

Don't worry about it, I'm over it now. Was a bit tetchy due to lack of sleep. :P

It is lovely to see an apology :) Not often given by people and a great thing to do in my book :)

Sally

It appears that in this instance Blue was not in a position where he felt he needed to defend himself - he was playing with a trusted friend when he went in to bite her.  You could possibly read Blue's behaviour as a 'need to defend himself' if he met an unknown dog that either lunged at him aggressively with no first move from Blue OR that came into Blue's space or critical distance at which Blue felt threatened. 

In the incident with Blue and Nell neither of the above happened - they were happily playing together with no aggressive displays from Nell so I would think it right for Blue's owner to verbally reprimand him for his behaviour otherwise he will not learn what is acceptable and what is not. 

In this instance it does not appear from what's been said that Blue's owner could have caused his aggression by verbally checking him.

Suzieque, having reread the whole thread you are replying to my first post, (does anyone else have problems knowing which post is connected to which?) and I think my subsequent posts give you an indication of my opinions.  I won't repeat anything I've already said but I've pasted the relevant bits. ;)

"However it is too complex an issue to solve via the written word which is why I said seek help.  If you go to someone who suggests punishment or aversion for growling at another dog then you may end up with a dog that cannot mix."
"You don't know why he did it.  I don't know why he did it."
"When he writes his memoirs perhaps we'll find out."
"Have you never argued with a freind?"

And where did I say that Blue's owner caused his aggression?
Sally

Sally

Your example of aggressive behaviour is a 'Suzanne Clothier' illustration I believe!!

From your use I gather you approve of her book!!

Yes, I like her writing.  I have recommended her natural jumping method for agility.  My analogy I made up as I went along but no doubt it was influenced by something I read somewhere once and then used countless times in my work.
Sally

Sally

I've got all of her booklets and especially love the one on self control - it was badly needed with my rescue dog - he was totally wild!

Best wishes

I don't think I've read that one.  I'll have to find it.  I have several rescues and one little bitch is a whirling dervish and drives me insane.  :)

Hi Sally

I'll answer 2 posts in one:-  yes, I have a problem working out which order replies come in to posts.  I answered one of your earlier ones by clicking on the reply box on your post.  Where did my reply get posted??  About 6 further down the line making the thread impossible to follow.  I posted the one about Suzanne before my other.  Where does it appear??  After the other!!!!!

On the self control booklet - I got mine from the states - don't know if its available here but I will dig my copy out (my rescue has progressed somewhat so I don't use it too often now!) and see if there is a supplier in the UK.  She's very good though (SC that is) I found that I already believed a lot of what she was saying but didn't have the confidence to 'say it out loud'.  Now I do.  I think a lot of people have forgotton that dogs are just that - dogs  - and they fail to respect that as such they have rights.  There seems to be an overwhelming desire in owners to have to control everything their dog does when in fact they are just 'being dogs'.  That's not to say I think they should get away with murder but just accepted for what they are. 

Finally, I didn't say that you thought Blue's owner was responsible for her dogs aggression.  I think she thought that because after she read one of your posts she thought she should have ignored her dogs behaviour and she didn't, she rebuked him.  I was reassuring her in the process of replying that's all.

Regards

""I think a lot of people have forgotton that dogs are just that - dogs  - and they fail to respect that as such they have rights.  There seems to be an overwhelming desire in owners to have to control everything their dog does when in fact they are just 'being dogs'.  That's not to say I think they should get away with murder but just accepted for what they are. ""

My sentiments exactly. :)

Hi Suzieque,
I'm with you, I still think Maria was right to reprimand Blue for his bad behaviour. :)

Sally, once a dog has already gone for another dog (whether friend or not and whether provoked or not) I think they should be firmly (but kindly) reprimanded, though I think your idea of averting bad behaviour BEFORE it happens is a good one :) Harriets idea of giving treats is a very good example of that. :)

I'm afraid I don't agree with your analogy.

a) Your wierd man was overstepping the mark whereas Nell wasn't. If I physically attacked anyone but especially a friend for something unprovoked,  I'm sure my husband would reprimand me and would be justified in doing so. Yes in an ideal world he may steer me away from  impending trouble but you can't spend your life avoiding trouble, you have to learn how to handle it when it happens. In your analogy I think BOTH parties needed a telling off!

b) > "it would have been nice if he had said to the woman after I had beat her husband about the head with a bag of bread  'I'm sorry about my wife but your husband was a bit rude' "

Maybe if the woman always reprimanded *her* dog (husband) for his bad behaviour, he wouldn't go round attacking other dogs (putting his arm round women).

I know what you mean about the posts popping up all over the place, just when I think I've got it sussed it they go and surprise me all over again. :D

Kath.

>>Sally, once a dog has already gone for another dog (whether friend or not and whether provoked or not) I think they should be firmly (but kindly) reprimanded,

You are telling him that you are displeased with him.  It won't teach him not to do it only not to do it when you are watching.  In my opinion it is unfair to punish a dog for showing emotion.  This is only my opinion and it is based on personal experiences. 

>>Your wierd man was overstepping the mark whereas Nell wasn't.

As I've said before - you don't know that.  We weren't there and even if we were we would still have been clueless as to why it happened.  I'm not suggesting that Nell overstepped the mark. They were just being dogs.  They were communicating. 

>>In your analogy I think BOTH parties needed a telling off!

Thankfully it is only an anology but I cannot believe that you think I should have been told off for reacting as I did to a complete stranger touching me. I have never hit anyone by the way, it was a story. ;)

>>Maybe if the woman always reprimanded *her* dog (husband) for his bad behaviour, he wouldn't go round attacking other dogs (putting his arm round women).

And maybe she wasn't watching, more likely, which is why he did it. ;)

>>I know what you mean about the posts popping up all over the place, just when I think I've got it sussed it they go and surprise me all over again.

And hopefully this post will appear directy underneath yours :)

Sally

LOL,  I stand by my opinions, Sally, but I think we'll just have to amicably disagree and let Barb and Maria decide what's right for their situation or this could go on forever.  :D 

By the way, I do know that an analogy is only a story.  Don't worry, I haven't got visions of you running amok in the park! :D

Kath.

Hi Sally,

I have since read the full illustration by Suzanne Clothier and although i can understand and agree even with the things that she says i dont think this is the case with Blue, on the day in question I was watching Blue as any responsible owner would watch their dog, and Nell was not "rude" in any way toward Blue at all, therefore I could find no apparent reason for him to behave this way toward Nell?

I'm sure Nell wasn't rude to him and I've already acknowledged that we, as mere humans couldn't possibly know the apparent reason for his actions.  They were doing what dogs do.  Anyway having just returned from a drug induced sleep at the dentist I think I'll drink my tea and go back to sleep so forgive me if I'm not making sense. :)
Sally

Thank you for all your input Sally, some of what you said did make sence to me and it has been of some help.

i do hope you feel better after your trip to the dentist

:-)sweet dreams:-)

Maria

I would also like to thank everybody else who contributed to this thread.

your replies were very much appreciated:-)

Maria.