Just look into gundog training methods use in America eoghania!

John

Edited later. . . .
Sorry if that sounds a little brisk but I am rather seething at the moment. It is a subject I feel so very strongly. The collars we are talking about are radio controlled to give the dog an electric shock at the press of a remote button. Yes I can see uses for them as I have said before, but only in very rare occasions such as the correction of sheep worrying, where, if something is not done then it would spell the end for the dog, and then only by competent person!
The use for "Standard" training such as heelwork as has been recommended on this board I find abhorrent. Everyone now knows what I feel and for that matter responsible and caring people on this board. My worry is that new owners looking in on the board will get totally the wrong opinion about the subject. I, in common with hundreds of other people have been involved with dogs and dog training for so many years without ever having to subject a dog to this abuse and would hate to see these new owners thinking that such things are acceptable.

Who ever said anything about a collar/neck jerk in the about turn method? You stop - the dog is pulling not jerking - you turn and call - the dog should come with you. You should never have to jerk - and no one has said you do. Yes, pulling can still cause some problems, but by turning the dog chooses to slacken and follow - as soon as there is pressure on the lead again you stop and turn - you never let it get to the point of dangerous pulling and jerking!

Wendy

Hi Folks,

I'm new to this board but felt I had to post on this debate.

I do a lot of behavioural work and the amount of "dog" to "dog" aggression enquiries I receive is immense. Most of these problems are down to the use of choke chains, prong/pinch collars or electric methods.

All of these methods have physically damaging effects but the behavioural effects are even more damaging.

I am a firm believer of not controlling a dog by pain or shock. I deal primarily with Rottweilers and the ones that I take as pets for myself are usually adults - I am not going to gain their respect through pain or shock tactics. Pack ranking and obedience training is the way to go - I always clicker train.

A dog will associate a shock or pain with a threat so by using these methods to resolve difficulties (i.e. pulling on the lead) you are reinforcing the threat and a dog on a lead is always at a disadvantage.

Like it has been said on this thread, the best way to stop pulling is to stop walking! Positive methods take a little more time but the payoff is tremendous - you and your dog have a good working relationship which is deviod of fear. That is the relationship I want to see, an enthusiastic dog who respects his handler.

I'll get off my soap box!

Kind Regards.

Alison.

AlisonN - well I'm glad you've posted you have made me feel a whole lot better about professional trainers:)

PS Tried it without his gentle leader, and to honest it was a disaster, I actually have more control when he is off the lead, comes back imediately and ignores other dogs when told too, put it back on and he almost seemed relieved as if to say 'aha she who must be obeyed is now attatched so will give warning should I wish to sniff anything'! I never, nor ever have I, had to yank his head so this must be better for his neck.

"electric collars" must be the most awful, sadistic LAZY way of training a dog I have ever heard of. I couldnt believe it when I read about them on here. What on earth do these people do ... zap the dog to make him sit and when he has learned to sit, zap him to make him lay down and then zap him again to stop him pulling on the lead? I dont believe for one second that the dog isnt zapped for every possible command his owner wants him to obey. I mean, if you want to zap him for one thing you would probably use it for everything, otherwise why bother at all? LAZY and disgraceful. Gina

For a tongue in cheek send up of the electric collar manufacturers advertising blurb, please go to this webpage, then search all the links at the bottom of it for more information. :)
http://www.scallywags1.freeserve.co.uk/proteam.html

Some years ago at Crufts, they sold e collars - theywere literally only there for a few hours because they were told to leave.

Anyway, one lady asked the saleswoman if she would test the collar on her own arm after sh e had given all the blurb about how it didn't hurt etc.....but the saleswoman hastily declined.

I think that says it all really!!!!!

LIndsay

Gina I think (and its just my Opinion) that electric colllars are another quick fix to train a dog, cutting corners.someone mentioned an auto maton and thats what I believe you get by not training properly but using gadgets ,As someone Pointed out we have an sudden influx of overseas visitors on here at present which all adds to the widening of the discussion of course but some have a hell of a different angle on training than us,Brute force seems to be the order of the day with some people! well its not mine I want well adjusted dogs who trust me and in a given circumstance I would want to trust them to please me snd help me out of mutual respect and not fear.

So true Mattie!

Why do most of us have dogs, generally it is because we enjoy them, and want to have fun and a good relationship with them, whatever we choose to do with them at the end of the day. I would be ashamed of myself if i resorted to an e collar just for trainng a dog to walk to heel....to my mind the inabilityto do that without an e collar, is surely showing a lack of training knowldege and understanding at the end of the day. We all have different mehtods, but an e collar is just really unfair.

Also, I don't think we have mentioned anti-pull harnesses at all, have we? These are pretty safe re physical damage to oesophagus, throat etc. some work better than others but do help with the A to B when an owner can't be training all the time.

Lindsay

Woooah!!! Just come back to the board after not looking at it for a few days!!!
I will stick to the 'no walk if you pull' method and try doing the about turn things as well. My main problem for training them is the fact I have two dogs and often need to walk them on my own. taking them seperately takes a lot longer and isn't always possible. is it worth getting a halti or other harness so that I can walk them both together if necessary and then carry on with their training on the times I don't have to walk them together? Or will this affect what they are meant to be learning from the training?
Also, can a halti actually train them not to pull after a while, or when its taken off, will they always revert back to pulling?

I've not had to use a head collar on a permanent basis - usually just for a month (depending on the problem!).

My late blind rescue rott was initially trained with a Halti while he got used to staying close to my leg but even he only needed one for a couple of weeks.

The head collar is really just to make life a bit easier while you work on the heel command - I've always found clicker training to be fantastic for this.

Happy to email you some further details if you want to go down this route.

Kind Regards.

Alison.

Thanks - that would be great if its not too much trouble. I have put my e-mail address on show under my details!!

Many thanks,

Heather

Hi EOGHANNA...and others,
I am the one who started the remote static electric collar subject, if you go to the 7th down from the begining in response to Hevs original posting that is the post which started the panic.
I have absolutly no idea why my fellow Brits assume that anyone who wrote in favour of e collars are from US, I would love to go to USA one day, for the first time! but you know flying from my home airport of Heathrow for 8 boreing hours is a 'negative stimuli'.
I am further surprised that they seem to think (1) They originate in USA, when in fact they originate in Germany. (2) That they are new when in fact they have been in use since WW2.
I have watched this post both with intrigue and amazement. Despite the medical results of the Swedish autopsies I am amazed at the amount of people who advocate letting their dog go forwards, hit the end of the lead on its flat buckle collar with the full weight of itself combined with the speed hitting the tracha, thyroid, aesophegus vibrating the vertabrate hour in hour out, miniute by minuiute of every day (because it works on some dogs and not others) and causeing all
the damage such lazy techniques cause.
Anyone who puts their hand in a karate chop and LIGHTLY starts to tap their throat area will see not just the discomfort but the obvious dangers. All one has to do to prove that letting the dogs full weight hit the collar by stopping suddenly is to tie a lead on to a fixture, put a collar on themselves and fall forwards 20 times.
The damage caused will give some empathy into what happens to a dog with this method (or about turns).
I noticed in some posting that there were some replies from Pro dog trainers who understand the remote E collar and it is pointed out quite clearly that being taught to use one involves the handler being put on the E collar themselves first and then going through the training proceedure, this is correct, I also notice that those, quite obviously pro trainers wrote in British style, maybe they could confirm this.

If the above principle were applied in about turn or sudden stops heelwork training classes the training classes would be full of human bodies and almost undoubtedly the autopsies would be the same as the Swedish autopsies on dogs.
For anyone wishing to read the sceintific facts on all this you will find my first entry
which is the 7th from the begining of this posting.
Incidentaly, I was trained on about turns and sudden stops in the 70's, I also spent my childhood with working Border Collies.