Does everybody that calls breeders puppy farmers really no what one is as alot of good breeders out there are having there name ruined because of miss informed people and it is a real shame.

My definition of a puppy farmer is someone who breeds large numbers of puppies purely for monetary gain without reference to the Health Schemes, the breed standard or correct temperament, and then will sell to anyone who has the money regardless of whether this is a suitable home, and furthermore takes no responsibility for the puppies they breed once sold.

This kind of breeder exploits their bitches to the maximum possible and then dispose of them when they can no longer pay there way.

It can be easily demonstrated that a bitch cannot pay for her lifetimes care from the profit made from her litters if bred ethically.  Even six litters in a lifetime that the Kennel Club will allow will not care for a bitch for her lifetime, let alone give her owner a living, and most good breeders wouldn't dream of having that many litters, usually only half that.

I can't think of any "good" breeders who are having their names ruined. It is quite easy to differentiate between a "good breeder" and a puppy farmer, they are a world apart in attitude & action. I think Brainless has said it all.

Maybe the guest is referring to some recent high profile resignations?  No doubt if they are for real they will come and tell us.

I believe it is only since about the 1980's/early 1990's that people have begun to think that back-to-back, and lots, of litters are unethical and unnecessary - even bad.  Anything that happened before this, providing the dogs were well looked after should be disregarded IMO as it was probably normal for the times.

Unless you are doing it as a business I can't think of any reason why anyone would want to breed more than one or two, possibly three occasionly depending upon the age of the bitches, litters a year?

I read in a magazine many years ago that a breeder of one of the hounds stated that they take 3 litter sof EVERY bitch then rehome th ebitch. Now I'd consider that puppy farming too, there is no indication that the dogs are badly cared for but I have to ask why does every bitch need to have 3 litters? Are they that bad at selecting good breeding stock?
You also have to remember that many top kennels have worked on a similar basis but if you breed 30 litters a year of course you are going to get a good un unlike many of us who rely on doing loads of home work and breeding one litter a year and only having a choice of say 5 puppies rather than 150 puppies.
Where exactly do you draw the line. It is a fine line for me.

Jesse

Oh I agree, Jesse - the line is extremely difficult to define. I think a major difference must be whether or not the breeders show any of their stock - if the pups they keep for breeding on from are kept up to standard. Certainly in the old days the big kennels produced very many puppies - but they also kept the best and showed them to Champion status. Yes they had a great advantage when it came to choice - but in many cases even their 'rejects' were better than the average in the breed.

I once visited a commercial breeder of one breed - and yes, the kennels were very clean, and the dogs well fed - but they weren't well socialised, they were never shown, and out of the 100 or so dogs that were there, I would say there were no more than 3 that could have done reasonably well in Open shows, and none in Championship shows. They were being produced purely for the pet market - and unfortunately it showed! :(

I agree that there is a difference but I still thinking breeding dogs as a business, no matter how it's done, is wrong. I just don't see dogs as products to be produced and sold I think they deserve better than that and there are enough dogs being bred without the need for producing large quantities no matter how they are bred!

Jesse

Again true, Jesse - most of the 'big kennels' began 'smalling down' in the 60s - especially in the physically larger breeds. The majority were from the post-war days when pedigree dog breeding was done by the few, not every Tom, Dick or Harry who had a pedigree dog. These were the people who kept breeds alive during the War, and built up the numbers to viable levels. They must be spinning in their graves at the nonchalant attitude taken by the majority of breeders nowadays.

I think one of the main things has to be responsibility for the life of the pups produced.

If breeding commercially is to go on (it is perfectly legal) then part of the rules should be that every puppy produced by commercial breeders should be permanently identified by chip or tattoo, and the BREEDER be responsible for rehoming it, or paying the rescues expenses.

In my breed nearly all the rescues are DLRC puppies, mostly sold through the Northern puppy supermarket whose previous owner set up DLRC.  Now if they had to pay the recue, or take the dog back, maybe they would decide that breeding dogs wasn't such good business????

I agree Brainless I've always felt that breeders (of any animal) should be more responsble for that which they produce through out that animals life.

Jesse

Not so Christine. I remember us talking about puppy farmimg (Although not using those words) back in the '60. We managed to get a place around here closed down. Unfortunatly it only stayed closed for a few weeks before reopening under a different name. We still knew right from wrong when it came to breeding.

Best wishes, John

HI Guest,

Maybe your idea of what a puppy farmer is are different for others, maybe not.  I am not sure.

Maybe you could join and explain.

I ditto what Brainless has said. 

not too sure what puppy farmers are but personally when my 2 gsd's had pups years ago,  or should i say mated, i read up on as much info as possible for the new arrivals. i watched the birth of all 8 pups and actually helped the 1st pup as mum ignored it at first so i broke the skin bag and blew down the pups nose and gave it a rub with a handtowel, then placed it on mums nipples and she took to the pup, the next 7 came hours apart with me anxiously waiting.
i had already prepared a room for them, a spare bedroom for mum and her 8 pups, i laid plastic wrap sheets on the floor topped with news papers and a large box with blankets in.
I brought a special red bulb which gave off a dim light and heat.
I called out my vet at that time to check mum and all 8 pups, I put up a child gate so mum could jump out for a break and pups stayed in the room and kept dad away.
I cleaned up about twice a day and when the pups were about 5 weeks old i started to give them solids.
I also put down bowls of lactol puppy milk.
I then started to advertise in the local papers and reg them with the kennel club.
I had 4 males and 4 females and brought different coloured soft cat collars for them.
When prospective buyers came to look at the pups and both parents if they were interested i took a £50 deposit and marked there choice of pup with a pen to identify that pup as theres.
i did home visits to see the familys home and spoke to them in detail about how they would care for my pups.
I had all the pups first jabs done at 8 weeks old and then let them go to their new familys at 8 and a half weeks old.
I charged then a further £200 for the pups which didnt really cover my expences but it was my fault not taking the correct precautions one season hence they mated. both parents were 2 and a half.
all 8 pups went to great homes and i kept intouch with the owners for ages untill i moved away, i had cards xmas cards and pictures, 1 of the pups was a runt but my parents took her , dutchess was her name, they paid a fortune for vet fees as she had kidney and liver failure and after about a year or so they had her put down, another bitch was returned to me as the couple i had sold her to 1 of them died in a car crash but a happy ending i resold her to a lovely family who had just lost there gsd after years of having there pet.
when all the pups went i broke my heart but knew it was impossible to home them all myself.
My bitch got speyed and i continued to have both my babies untill sadly through ill health i lost them both.
I would never ever consider breeding again as it was very very hard work and very costly.
was my experience, putting me in the same catagory as a puppy farmer as i wasnt a reputable breeder of gsd's?

No Sam you were definately not puppy farming :D

You did everything correctly bar the Health tests (Hips and Hamophilia for the male) or planning a mating to produce GSDs to the breed standard, but I suspect you did not misrepresent them as being anything other than an accidental litter from two nice family dogs.

Buyers got your back up, you took back the pup when circumstances changed and reared them nicely in a family home, and the buyers could see what they were likely getting when seeing both parnets.  Fortunately the only unhealthy one was with your parents.

You didn't overprice them by the sound of it either.

Now if ylu had bred from your bitch again and not had them Hip Scored etc then I would personally taken a dim view.  Sadly there are many so called family pet breeders who allow their two dogs to mate time and time again, and don't health test or bother whether the pair are really best suited to produce the best possible pups.

im sorry guest but i fail to see what your saying
If a breeder is a genuine reputable breeder they will often come reccomended ,there stock will be of a good standard.they will comply with breed club codes of conduct,they will always KC register stock,
they will not be breeding evry breed of dog thats sells for a few quid they will have there own specialised breed (sometimes two breeds) if you search the net for information on breeders this is what you are told to look for.
how can you confuse them with some one who chucks out pups willy nilly ,who always has pups of lots of breeds available and doesnt register or bother to show or work there dogs.?

There was an interesting editorial in dog World last week or the week before on this subject.  Becasue someone breeds dogs as part of another dog care business (eg grooming, boarding etc) they are often (incorrectly) labeled puppy farmers.  Sometimes jealousy comes into it, people who work full time and can only care for a couple of dogs are jealous of those who can spend all day with there dogs and have the opportunity to breed severla litters, and run on several pups.  They actually said something that I posted here a little while ago - we shouldnt get too hung up on numbers, it is standards which matter.  You can be a "kitchen sink" puppy farmer, you can have a big kennel and be a good and ethical breeder.  No idea if this is what the orignal poster was on about.
bye
Gwen

I have no issue with people who have dog related businesses breeding dogs, it's when the breeding is for commercial (i.e. monetary) reasons that I object. It's about time dogs stopped being regarded as just things.

Jesse