As you know i have 2 intact males, they are going through the i am boss stage and are having little set twos, would it be best to have one of them chopped?? I know my 2 are setteling in with stuarts 2, will this pass, what do you suggest, any advice is welcome.

thanks

Jane

Hi Jane,
How old are the dogs?
:)

3 1/2 and 1 year old just. The 3 1/2 year old has been the boss and the youngest now wants to take over, but daddy isnt letting him, we think daddy was protecting us, as last night we were with the 1 year old playing and he got giddy, dad wasnt happy as it did look like 1 year old was playing a little ruf.  We are hoping this is a one off.

If your not going to bread then i would suggest you get both of them neutered. Its better for them in the long run as health problems can happen to entire dogs also most dogs that end up in rescue havent been netured so they go chasing a bitch in season and end up being rehomed. Got our bengi from rescue for that very reason. We had our other dog netured when he was 1year and it was the best thing we did as it calmed him down loads abd bengi has just been done this week

If there are already disputes when both are entire, then neutering both as suggested will do nothing to solve this situation :(

In reply to your message digger Neutering them both will help them calm down in the long run. Neither one of them will have the upper hand and keeping a male dog entire and not breeding will only leave the dog frustrated thus one of the main reasons entire dogs end up in rescue and end up being rehomed because they went after a bitch in season.

Sonny, for seriously quarrelling dogs to be able to live happily together, it is important that one is superior to the other, and that both accept their positions. They will then both live in harmony. Owners must do all they can to reinforce the 'top dog' and submissiveness in the lower-ranking dog (including castration if necessary). Treating them both equally will only exacerbate the problem.
Hope this helps.
:)

Sonny, I think you misunderstand how dogs keep the peace between them - it's as much about what the dogs know about each other as by body language - and normally an entire dog outranks a castrated dog to such a point that niether feels the need to start a fight - which is why it's important, as others have said, to castrate the lower ranking dog ONLY - look at it this way - current leader = 4 points, wanna be leader = 3 points, entire dog = 2 points, castrated dog = 1 point, teenage hormones = 2 points, At the moment we have an entire current leader who has a total of 6 points, and a wanna be teenager who is  at 7 points - if we neuter both they still only have 1 point between them, and the fights will continue because they are still too close. if we can weather the storm, we may end up with the teenager matured actually scoring less without the addition of his hormones, and the situation will settle of its own accord.  However, it may be that the current teenager is actually more inclined to be leader, and his maturity alone may give him 5 points (which more than compensates for his lack testicles) - this gives us a castrated  leader with 5 points and a castrated wanna be with 4 points - which to the dogs is the same situation - not enough difference between them, and the fights will continue :(

It is quite possible to keep an entire dog happy and exercised without them ending up in rescue.  It is also quite possible for a neutered dog to still have the urge to roam and find a bitch (I know - I've kept both!!)

It should also be pointed out that a weakness in the older dog could cause the younger dog to take advantage, and it may well be an idea to get the older dog checked for medical problems (blood tests etc) I dealt with a sad case a couple of years ago - 2 GSD'd, father and son, lived together happily with the Mother for 18 months, suddenly the son turned on the Father, against my advice the owner decided to neuter both (the vet advised neutering both - but there was no discount for bulk ;)) The fights continued (as I had predicted) - then the older dog finally started to show physical signs of discomfort - a haemangiosarcoma had metasized to his lungs and bones :(

Hi Digger, I do not misunderstand at all, neither of my two dogs are pack leader as i do not allow it and they get on fine. I am pack leader and they know it. My youngest (2 1/2) had been castrated before we gave an entire rescue dog (aged 5) a home and yes the older one tried to dominate the younger one in the first two-three days. The younger one is not a bully and would backaway and shown no sign of dominance before we got older one. But he did not like the humping and soon told him off. We have had the older one nueatured as well now, but if there is fighting in the pack the pack leader should stop it and this shouln't be the dog all of the time as they think they can walk all over you as well.

Then all I can suggest is that you have a lucky escape - your dogs were obviously well seperated in their ranking before either of them were neutered - canine behaviour is a complicated area, full of pit falls for the novice ;)

If you are going to go down the castration route in an attempt to solve this, make sure you only castrate the subordinate dog. Castrating the wrong one, or both, won't solve anything, and may make things worse.

In most cases if they both respect you there will be no real problem, dogs will have the odd squable, you tell them to stop and they soon forget it and return to being pals again, can sound bad but rarely is. Now bitches are a different story and far more difficult to deal with if they have a scrap.

Jackie I must be following you, I agree though (again)
Dogs fight for breeding rights; Bitches fight for breathing rights.

Karen

Yep, I always think that the males are too concerned for their looks and comfort to really go in for fighting in earnest. It's normally all noise and posturing, mind you I would think that there are some breeds that would take their fighting more seriously and in that case it may be more of a problem, mind you I take it you have an ex-fighting breed and you seem to think the same as me, so may be it was the bitches that were used to fight or may be the dogs were baited and prodded to make them keen.

Please don't jump on me, it was just as I was writing about dogs that the thought came into my mind, what is left of it, and I wondered how the dogs that were bred to fight were encouraged to do so. :)

Jackie I would not jump far from it. And have PM'd you :)
Karen

Hi, it makes a lot of sense how digger explained the points system between top dog and the challenging dog, but I also agree with sonny in that the owner is the ultimate top dog and if the dogs respect this then no, there shouldn't be a problem of squabbling between the two. However this all goes out the window when the owner isn't around, the dogs will challenge each other for the higher position if the leader isn't there to put them in their place.

I am thinking of getting one of my dogs fixed (I have 2 intact males) because of dominance marking in the house, after reading this thread I believe that it should be the subordinate of the two who should have it done. My problem is this, I'm finding it very hard to tell which one is which. Alfie seems to be lord of the beds- if he wants to lie in a certain place, then Haz will move for him. But then at mealtimes Haz is always the first to eat. When we go out Alfie walks ahead of Haz, but then Haz takes charge of any quarry they may catch. It's really difficult!! one day we think Alfie is leader, then the next it looks as though he's not.
What other things could we watch out for so that we know for sure who is above who in the ranking?
I'm not sure if the dogs themselves know , hence the peeing contests, any advice appreciated.
Thanks Harriet

Hi Harriet, When were out my two get on quite well. (No complaints from the neighbours and when ive asked about their behaviour ive been told they have really quiet). We take them to dog classes every week to solicise them, but when im at home they do sometimes seem to play up to get my attention. As for not knowing which is the leader between the two of them they might be sharing this role as neither one will give in. My two do this all the time and i never know untill i hear a yelp but then all i have have to do is say no and then ingnore them for a little while and they soon calm down. As for nueturing  i am all for it as not only does it calm the dog down (most cases) it also helps their health later on in life

'Dominance' is usually like this. One dog will insist on having the best bed and won't give way on the issue so it is dominant over sleeping arrangements. Another lives to eat and bosses the comfort obsessed dog over food. IMO it's only in a pack situation where you see a genuine boss dog, or more often a boss bitch, who is deferred to in everything by everyone if she chooses to assert her rights. A very secure top bitch or dog usually won't bother to lay the law down very often and will allow Ms Comfort the bed she wants and Mr Greedy to grab a mouthful from her dish. But if she does decide that the others are out of order, one grumble will have them in all retreat.

What age are your boys and are both of them marking or is it just one? A young fellow pround of his new-fangled hormones will sometimes do a bit of marking, but they usually grow out of it.

Hi Jas, both my boys (whippets) are 5yrs, they are both scent marking it started about last July. They can go weeks without doing it then suddenly we'll get a spate of it. Have noticed that it usually happens when one of them is ill. For instance Alfie broke his toe a few months back and they started up again, then Haz had muscle strain for a few days last week and it happened then, but just lately it has gotten worse. They are so devious that we can never catch them in the act, so we can't correct them. It usually happens at night when we are in bed. It isn't because they can't hold it either! They are the sort of dogs that have to more or less kicked out in the mornings. I tested them one day just to see how long they would last before needing to go out for a wee. Finally at 2pm!!!! Alfie decided slink on out to the garden, Haz went until about 4pm!! We always put them out as late as possible before going to bed too. The only good thing is that they only do it on a tiled floor- not on carpeted areas, so we put their beds in my son's room at night and close the door- result no mess. This works out great until my son gets up in the night (like last night) for whatever reason and they escape- result -lovely puddle for me to clean up first thing. It's really getting me down. Do you think neutering would help?

Our buster was 1 year and i had to wash the curtains weekly due to pee. He could hold it when he wanted to but we could never catch him. We did have him nutearted for other reasons and his weeing did stop.

Hi Harriet, I don't know. I've never had or known of a dog that began marking at that age. When they are both at it, it sounds as if it's something to do with the interaction between them as you suggested, but I can't think of what it might be. They're doing it on a tiled floor, so it can't be a whiff lingering despite cleaning. If the marking is the only reason for neutering you could try Tardac. That way you could see if treating one but not the other, or treating both helps. Hounds are good at devious and I bet it's getting on your nerves. Hope someone comes up with a better idea and you get it sorted.

thanks both jas and sonny for your replies and suggestions. what is tardac? never heard of it.

Maybe because I spelled it wrong Harriet :) It's actually Tardak. It's a drug that prevents testosterone production for 4-6 weeks and so temporarily chemically castrates the dog. It's a good way to see if surgical castration is likely to help before you actually do it.

Will it give them a high pitched bark too? They won't develop breasts will they, if so, sod the dogs I'm having some of that. lol :-) Thanks I will ask the vet about it.

Hi Jas,

My girl is like that. She's 'top dog' but hardly ever opens her mouth.
If there is a squabble she just looks at the offending dog and it stops.
We had Robyn, a rescue, who we recently re-homed with my Mam. He was food aggressive. Because he was a 'tiny' and Ragga is a Mastiff she was very patient with him but if he p****d her off she just headbutted him and he knew to get out of the way.

My daughter had the same problem with her three. The Staffy dog was Alpha. He died suddenly with a badly slipped disc and then the two bitches started fighting. It was impossible to stop them, they were Mastiff and a X-BT, unfortunately it got to the point where it was impossible to keep the two of them. Due to the breeds it was felt 'kinder to the girls' not to re-home either. My daughter had the sad decision whether to pts both or either. After a lot of thought, because the X-BT was the dog aggressor, she decided to keep the Mastiff.
She had had the X-BT for 7 yrs, she was devastated, but the decision had to be made. It has turned out she made the right choice. She now has a fantastic bitch that is easily controlled, even by her 2yr old, who would also protect her family when asked to do so.

Hi Dawn, I ran into trouble when an very alpha, alpha bitch died too. For a while we had all sorts of problems, from fights to disobedience until another bitch floated to the top of the heap. Thankfully the new boss took over before we got into the real bitch spite situation you daughter had but it was close and two bitches near in age were doing far too much sparring. Once the new boss bitch was established she told them both off firmly and although they were never good friends again, that put an end to the fighting.

PS - delighted to see that Dave is doing so much better.

"Dogs fight for breeding rights; Bitches fight for breathing rights."

Beautifully put! :) When the lads fall out even over a lady, they've forgotten about it before the blood dries. Bitch spite is never forgotten.

Just like the human race then :D

Exactly :)
Karen

Hi all sorry not been on for a few days, had my hands full with the males, dad nipped sons ear, and now son has a bucket on his head, spoke to the vet who did recomend having son castrated so after he has his stiches out of his ear, then we will discuss again with the vet.  When they are growling it is when we are with them and giving them attension, when they are on there own we dont have a problem, think son is jelouse(sp) because dad has moved in to his house.  I dont want to castrate son if it is not going to work and will cause him pain. I dont know we have the animals and i dont know what is worse kids or dogs,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, yes i do KIDS.

There in fact seem to be a few factors which may be the cause of the problems, and it may not be a straightforward "one dog taking over" type of thing after all.

I gather that the older male, the father, has in fact moved into the house where his son lives, and that the problems seem to start when attention is given, is this correct at all? :)

If it is, then it may be that the dogs are vying for attention with you rather than trying to sort out a pack thing. Sometimes human intervention here can also inadvertently cause problems because we tend to tell off the dog we see as the instigator of the aggression, and so on.

If you feel any of what i have said rings a bell, my advice would be to get a good behaviourist in (via vet referral if necessary, as they must be expereinced and reputable) and discuss this in the home environment, as itis possible that even castration may not solve the problem, esp. if it is related to resources (ie people ) rather than pack leadership.

Just a thought anyway.

Lindsay

Lindsy yes you are right, dad has just moved in with son.  All has been well today no growling or anything, i have taken a few days off with them to see if i can spend as much time as poss with them both.

Nutering does not cause that much pain. We have just has our 2nd dog done and he felt no pain at all. The first night there was a little discomfort but they soon get used to the bucket on the head, but hes his normal self, so dont feel guilty if you want to go ahead with it.

Sonny, how long does the op take? how much approx is the cost? and how long is the bucket on the head for afterwards? Thanks in advance for info. :-)

We took bengi to the vets 8.30am and picked him up at 4.40pm the same day. They keep them this long to make sure they are ok after the anisthetic. Prices do vary depending on vets. It cost us $80 (sorry do not have pound sign on pc) $35 for blood tests (you dont have to have these but if they have never been under anisthetic before it is worth considering). Bucket around $4 and worth every penny lol. Bucket has to stay on bengis head for about 10/11 days but he had stiches that has got to be removed. If they have dissolving stiches about 4/7 days depending on healing. We do take bucket off for feeding, drinks and bone chewing etc.. and when we go out for walks as it's embarrising lol. We had his teeth cleaned at the same time saving having him put back under anisthetic saving money in the long run and no more upheavel for bengi.