my name is Anne Foster and I was informed that my litter of harlequin great dane cross puppies were being discussed on this forum last week, by a lady who is interested in buying a puppy from me. She faxed me a couple of pages of replies to this discussion, which were very upsetting to me, the breeder of the puppies, as the people involved were saying a lot of negative things even though they have never met me or seen my puppies nor their parents, I own both. I would like to see this discussion in full, for myself, but it appears to have vanished into thin air, can someone please tell me where I can see this?

I would also like to respond to those people who were so harshly critical towards the lady who sent the message regarding my pups.

I obtained both dogs from a very good friend who owns great danes (he used to breed and show them) and he also has neapolitain mastiffs and irish bull terriers. The original litter was a complete accident which resulted from his harlie bitch becoming pregnant to his ISBT dog. Cassie did not even show any signs of being in season, and it was very surprising for John to learn she was in pup. however, the resulting litter were beautiful, and he sold them to pet homes for a very reasonable price. I was kindly given my bitch puppy from him for free as he is a friend.

John made the decision to breed the same litter again, a year later, as he had kept a puppy for himself, and she too turned out to be a lovely dog, stunning in every way, looks and temperanment. This time he mated Jo his other harlie, who was 8 and too old for a kennel club registered litter, with the same dog, I decided to take a dog puppy from this litter.

when I decided to mate my dogs, I did so because I had had SO many people asking me about my dogs, commenting how stunning they are, what breed are they, where did you get them etc John was the same, he was always getting compliments and people asking about his dogs, that is why he chose to breed the second litter of pups.

My first litter are all healthy, gorgeous dogs. I supply insurance and puppy packs to my new puppy owners. All keep in touch, some more so than others, one lady from  yorkshire sends regular pictures and updates and sometimes phones me, we plan to meet up in the summer and Im sure the dogs are all looking forward to it!. I am extremely offended by your comments on this website and just felt I had to say something about it. My dogs are much loved and very well looked after. all my puppies are reared on hills science plan and wormed 3 times before they leave me. I also vet where they are going. I think that makes me as good a breeder as anyone else. Just because my dogs are not purebred does not make them worth any less to me, or to the people who own the pups I bred.

Finally, with regard to the lady who mentioned starting a new breed, poodle lady I think she was called? That IS NOT my intention, I simply enjoy my dogs for what they are, I have no plans to breed any more litters in the near future, as I know from the previous experience, what a big responsibility it is, and how much time, love and effort has to be put in. Also I think two litters is plenty for a bitch to have in her lifetime.  A couple who bought one of the harlequin marked puppies from my first litter HAVE expressed an interest in breeding some sort of line from these dogs, and I wish them the best of luck, they too keep in touch to send pictures and emails. I believe they are going to mate their bitch later this year with another dane/stafford cross they obtained elsewhere, and In my personal opinion if they put lots of TLC in and have good homes for their puppies to go to, as I was fortunate enough to have, they will be rewarded the way I have been.

thankyou for reading this and allowing me to have a "right to reply" I have emailed the owners of my pups and informed them of the situation, I expect they may have something to say in defense of their dogs too.

Anyone who would even consider mating an 8 year old GREAT DANE leaves a lot to be desired in my opinion!!!!! I know the poster didn't personally but she knew the age of the bitch when she bought a puppy out of her.

Everyone to their own opinion fine, but not a cross that I would ever want anything to do with.

Nuff said :-(

READ LISTEN UP AND LISTEN GOOD ABOVE!!!!!!!!!!

As all good breeders know, there are health checks (hip-scoring etc) which all breeding animals should successfully pass. How have you managed to have this done?

No offence intended.
:)

I'm sorry but if there is no intention of creating a new breed then you should not have bred a litter and anyone else who is thinking of doing so should be discouraged from breeding as well unless they have a well thought out plan of what their ultimate aim is. Just breeding litters for pets is worng in my book.
Please also note my name is Jesse not Jessie!!

Jesse

In response to Jesse' mail about "just breeding litters for pets is wrong". Did you mean just breeding the crosses, or breeding any litter for pets is wrong? I think you probably meant the breeding the crosses?
If not, I would say every litter bred should be bred for a pet home.
By that I mean, the majority of dogs need to live within a household/family environment as a pet, including the the show dogs. Health and temperament should be of prime importance.
I have had crossbreeds before, my last one went to the bridge only 2 years ago, but I do not agree with breeding them deliberatly, there are far too many crosses (and pedigrees) in rescues centres, without adding to the problem. With crossbreeds, its pot luck as to what you get, health and temprament wise, and the general dog owning family wants a dog with good health, and just as important, a nice nature to live with.
I would guess that, unless you're very lucky, the majority of any litter goes to a "pet home"?

Kay

No I meant all dogs! You should only breed for the improvement of your breed and there should be an intention of you retaining one for your own lines. Yes This may not work out and all pups need to be homed but the ultimate aim of any breeder should be improving your lines not breeding litters just for the pet market.
If you are breeding for the whole litter to be sold as pets then I think this is wong.

Jesse

I agree Jesse, in that people should only breed to improve the breed in general, and I also think that people should only breed if intending to keep one (or in partnership or whatever), otherwise, how could they be claiming to be "improving the breed". But what I was meaning is that, the majority of any litter will probably go to people who do not show, who are just general families, who want a nice pet. Not that people are breeding just for pets, but its a fact that most will not be placed in a show home, in general terms, so all dogs should be bred for good health & temprament.

Kay

We are tooting the same tune then I agree that you should be ensuring that you are producing pups that make allround good pets!

Jesse

Glad you've come to answer for yourself :) Since you've come so far why not join the boards properly and maybe answer some more of my questions?

Why breed crosses? There are enough lovely crossbreeds (and purebred) dogs in the pounds. My oldest dog is a mongral. I love her lots and if I could have another just like her then I would but it's pot luck with crossbreeds - surely you know that?

Why those breeds? Do you not worry about the mentality of people who will want such a dog but not a registered breed? If it's a powerful big dog you want then what's wrong with the DDB or Neo mastif or even the bull mastiff? They are my 2 favoured breeds and, therefore, I know a little about both of them and know that they are both prone to hip problems. Then there's the eye tests that staffies should have - why risk this occuring in future generations?

Don't you worry about them being seized under the DDA? They are undenyably of  'type' and could be taken by the autorities for no reason other than a neighbour was concerned they were pits or might attack. :( It's sad but true.

Personally I think they sound like great dogs, but I know the sort of idiot who would be interested in them. I know it doesn't do either breed any justice. I know they could be very dangerous in the wrong hands. I can't even begin to imagine why you would do it on purpose if not to make money?

After reading through the local free ads it looks like it's a craze that's started :( There are more Dane/Staffy crosses in this week.

what have you lot got against cross breeds???? the y are by far the most healthy breed

Crossbreeds aren't a 'breed' - and there is no guarantee that they are going to be healthy. It depends on the health of their parents. For example, I have known several lab/GSD crosses that had dreadful HD.

and havn't you known more pure bred labradors and gsd with terrible hip displaysia?????? your average cross bred dog will need less visits to the vets, is less likely to suffer from allergies and will live a longer life!! it has been proven.

I'm going to risk being shot here and agree in principle with what you are saying

If nature had been left alone there would be no such thing as pedigree dogs... everyone would be a complete and balanced mixture, the heinze 57 variety.  And yes, in general (IMO), they do have fewer health problems than the pure bred dog.

BUT there are thousands of them pts every year because they aren't desirable, have problems people don't want to deal with, have been replaced with a baby/girlfriend/ps2 etc etc, etc. Basically too many people see them as 'disposable'.

So why the hell would anyone want to bring more of these into the world?

What the poster was doing/has done isn't to let nature take it's course with 2 'pure' mongrals. She has taken 2 breeds of dog (with all their faults as well as favours) and mixed them. Breeding dogs is not like baking a cake, you can't just put a with b and know you will get c. Every time you will do it there will be differences. Even to mate 2 of the same breed can have disaterous effects if they are not suited. Hence the need for health tests and advise from experienced breeders (who are still sometimes caught off guard).

I'm no expert. I've always owned  dogs from I was about 8 and Dizzy is the first 'non-rescue', but if you need to see any more evedence that breeding non-pedigree dogs is a bad idea go look on some of the rescue sites :(

oh and do you give a guarentee wtih any puppies that you breed????? there are no guarentees with anything all you can do is do the best you can to try and prevent deliberatly producing puppies which are unhealthy. of course in a perfect world(the one you live in) there would be no cross breeds at all and everyone would be able to afford to have a pedigree dog and 2.4 children and nice semi in a nice area, but sorry life is not like that. This lady is obviously responsible and just because she doesn't breed kc reg dogs does not mean they are going to die early of a hereditary illness, buying a kc reg pedigree dog does not give you a guarentee of lifelong healthiness cos you have a bit of a paper with score or a tick on it. i think the prejudice on this board is disgusting against cross breed dogs but do you all forget that most pedigree dogs were crossed at some point to produce a different breed which after many years of progressive breeding produces the now kc reg breeds(and the health problems associated which are basically man made) also do you all find it terrible that people are now trying to breed tailess dogs??? that is done by crossing 2 breeds of dog to then produce the tailess variety, or is that accepatable because its a pedigree dog?????

Why would someone want to breed a GIANT dog - a dane - with a MEDIUM dog? Why? Whats the point? Whats the cross for? What purpose does it serve? I have danes because I know their temperement and I know their physical size and I know the breed characteristics and I have them because I live in a remote area and I want an intimidating dog who is soft at heart.... WHY would someone breed a dane with an ISBT? Whats the point? I don't understand it.

Unfortunatley and very stupidly some people deliberatley cross these 2 breed becasue they can produce offspring who like a large Pitbull.  Not saying if that is the reason in this case outline here, but that seems to be the mentality of a lot of the people wanting to purchase this cross.  As they do often look like they are of the 'type' I cannot understand someone who states they care for their dogs deliberatly breeding pups who may suffer under the draconian Dangerous Dogs Act.
bye
Gwen

i would presume for money as both breeds usually have big litters and basically they'll look like pitbulls as they will take on the staff head. But .........whilst i have argued the point for cross breeds as has the original lady who has the gripe with this board i don't agree with breeding this sort of breed as wish failry said earlier a true cross breed usually has at leaat one parent of unknown origin which makes it a true cross(heinz 57) and that to cross 2 pedigree breeds deliberatly is uncalled for when we have many rescue dogs needing good homes. Your average person who has a cross breed litter of puppies will give them away to good homes as its usually the result of a mismating so they wish to make no money from the whole experience, but let there bitch continue with the pregnancy as they don't agree with termination(or for whatever reason) I am not trying to be horrid but i am just sticking up for the true cross breeds which are just as loveable as any pedigree dog

I can understand, and empathise, with a genuine mistake. After all, folk can be naive and can underestimate dogs urges...but to cross a dog of the size of a dane with an ISBT I just cannot understand...unless its to meet the whole "designer dogs" demand for something "different". And to breed a dane of 8 years old as in the original post is simply unforgiveable :(

i agree .isn't that the average life span of a great dane anyway????? its a wonder it didn't go into heart failure and die( perhaps it did but she didn't mention that)

Thing is...Dane's *look* elderly at 8... they have grey muzzles and because they grow so fast they age so fast.... they are real couch dogs then...wanting to sleep and sleep :) How can anyone justify breeding one at 8 :( I just love Dane's as they are.... can't bear to think of anyone deviating from such a majestic breed...

If the poster does it for the love of breeding, perhaps she should donate any ££ to the local dogs home ;)

maxisleepi - I was starting to think that you thought I hated crossbreeds

Quite the opposite would be true. :)

It's just that deliberate mixing of 2 breeds (particularly these 2) has little to do with the good of the dogs and more to do with the bank balance. I love both Danes and Staffi's and can't see why anyone thinks they can improve on them by mixing them?

And I'm not even going to start on the 8 year old issue :( I'll just say there is a reason why the KC won't let you register pups from a bitch that age :(

has anyone seen what these dogs look like, i can't seem to picture them..dane/isbt are they tall with a staffs head? or short with a dane's head? anyone got a pic? :)

The poster says that all the pups from this cross are healthy and of good temperament.2 things I would like to point out are...
1/ the pups inherit their temperament ,in part,from their parents so why breed mongrels with good temperaments instead of pedigrees as the parents would have produced similar temperaments to a good dog of their own breed
2/ at  a year old (poster said 2nd litter were produced the following year) many health problems would not have become evident.
Archer
p.s the issue of the  8 year old dane...the poster says this particular bitch was bred to produce x breeds since she was too old to have KC reg pups...says it all!!!    

I have no problem with cross breeds, some of the nicest dogs I know are crossbreeds.

What I do have a problem with is this type of money making breeding.

Anyone who could deliberately mate an 8 year old bitch knowing that he couldn't make anymore money from her having registered puppies, is to my mind breeding for nothing but money at the risk of his bitch.  But then what would he care about that!!!

I agree with Gwen, although not necessarily the posters reasons, but the only reason I can see for breeding this type of cross is for macho reasons which makes me question what type of person would buy them! :-(

However caring this person seems to be they dont say the dogs were health tested, do they?  So even though they are producing cross bred pups these pups will be as prone to any commonly shared Hereditary Defects as any pure bred pups, but without the benefit of careeful, selective breeding from parents with good, compatible health results.  And breeding such disparate sizes has inherent dangers anyway, as the pups can develop part toward 1 parent, part toward the other in most undesirable ways.  I knew a litter of terrier cross bassets, and half of the pups when they reached adult hood had considerable longer back legs than front, but with the bassett length of back.  The potential spinal trouble problems were mind blowing.  I dont think I have had any discussions with ony one on this board who was anti crossbreeds/mongrels.  However what were are almost unanimous in thinking and saying is that the deliberate production of mongrels for financial gain is to no- ones  benefit but the breeder, lining his pocket.  If you want a crossbreed, go to any rescue and give one a home who is desperatley in need.   

This is a matter very close to my heart at the moment, as I have this week had 2 e-mails asking me if I would consider doing a mating between one of my American cockers and a Pug.  I am hoping they were wind-ups, but as 1 offered to buy a whole litter and ship it out to California I am not sure! 

bye
Gwen

At eight years of age a Great Dane is very much an old lady, or gent...a lot of them only live to that age anyway, and to be breeding them is to my mind totally irresponsible. To say that it is a well known breeder that did it in the first place holds no weight with me whatsoever, some of them do things and breed dogs that should not be bred all for the sake of money, not for the welfare of the breed. But what goes on behind closed doors.....
That aside, to deliberatley do this cross just becasue the first litter appeared so wonderful is still, in my opinion, wrong. You cannot judge how good a cross is within it's first year or so, such decisions take many years to see if problems develop later in life as Gwen has said. I stick with my original opinions that such a mating is wrong, but they are just my opinions. As I said before while there are people willing to part with their money I'm sure the guest and many others will continue to breed what they like, when they like regardless of consequence
:(

Grace

until they get sued.

To be honest Chloe, if that's what it takes to make some of these people accept responsibility for what they are doing, I hope someone does sue...

Grace

Basically folk are charging a lot of money for pups that *may not* be "fit for the purpose". It would be easy for someone to buy a pup who suffered problems, say HD, that could be traced back to the breeder not being responsible - ie using an old bitch who is untested, within a breed that has problems with HD. In that case, who is to say that a puppy owner couldn't sue for a pup?

In fact a puppy owner could, and has, sued.  Case a year or two ago about a Golden Ret.  pup.  Cant remember the full details, but even though the parents were satisfactory, if not excellent on the HD scores the pup in question had severe HD.  Small claims ruled the breeder responsible, even though tests done!  they had to refund pricee of pup, pluslots of Vets costs, and I think something for distress etc.  Just imagine what might have been awarded from non tested parents!
bye
Gwen

Maxisleepi, I think if you read a little bit about dog genetics you may change your mind about them being healthier than purebreeds. In a crossbreed or a "pure" mongrel, the dog carries the genes for all the hereditary diseases in all the breeds in its background. It follows, therefore that it is more likely to suffer from more diseases than the pure breed, which is only succeptible to the breed specific diseases.

Also reputable breeders will do their best to ensure that their lines of pure bred dogs will have had as many tests as possible. They will also be willingly trying to assist in having DNA tests produce that can detect the relevant diseases prior to breeding and breed away from the problem.
How many producers of cross breeds would do that? You'd have to test the pups for all the diseases/disorders of all the parent breeds.

Jesse

i'm sorry but you are talking about recognisable hereditary defects i am talking about general health!!!! the hereditary problems in most breeds were man made from the production of a breed initially and now we have more knowledge we can try and correct this by breeding only from tested parents......... cross breeds are more healthy generally i mean, of course you can't test a cross breed for hereditary defects as where would you start!!!!! It has been brough to my attention that there is a new hereditary illness affecting a certain breed of dog that the health trust are investigating at present it is present in one of the top lines of this particular breed but has only been recognised recently and may almost certainly wipe out this particular line which is and has been for years influential in the breed......because this breeder didn't test (there isn't a test yet)for this because he didn't know about it does this make him one of your unscrupulous breeders??????? i notice that on one of the pages on here you were giving advice to a lady about a gsd and vwd and you all said that it wasn't a necessary test!!!! well according to you lot we should be testing every dog for every imaginable thing under the sun before breeding --- or are we just selective towards some breeds......

Why hasnt our "guest" joined the forum and the debate ?
Tend to think shes not genuine :rolleyes:

It is a fallicy that cross breeds/mongrels are healthy than pedigree dogs. You have to remember that they all stem from pedigree dogs and will therefore carry the same genetic make up of the pedigree dogs in their ancestry. Cross bred dogs should therefore be tested for all those problems that occur in their parent breeds should anyone consider breeding them.
You can only test for those probelms that have shown themselves. Things can be ressesive for generations before being expressed.
As far as I'm aware VWD is not a recognised problem in GSD's although Haemaphillia is and all stud dogs should be tested for it.

Jesse

Maxisleepi,

Below is a list of dogs owned by my Parents, brother and myself

Pedigree GSD - only ever saw vet at 16 for PTS
Pedigree Corgi - only ever saw vet for PTS at 18 3/4 years
Pedigree Cairn Terrier (rescue) - only ever saw vet for PTS at 18 1/2 years
Pedigree Weims (2) - so far strangers to vet apart from Vaccs
Pedigree Bedlington - so far only seen vet for vaccs

Afghan x long legged 'Jack Russel' (crossbreed/mongrel) - various allergies and hayfever + atopic eczema, parvovirus at 4 years old!!food allergies, arthritis, strokes - cost fortune at vets for 12 years + PTS at 15 years (possibly the most expensive dog we've owned - and he came 'free' )

Just taking account of the dogs my family has owned I would say that the pedigrees have been healthier than the crossbreed - so much for hybrid vigour :)

maxisleep - lets take my breed because I know the diseases its susceptible to. If my pedigree dog was showing signs of kidney problems I would then be looking for hereditary kidney disease. If my dog was a mongrel with the same breed in its background I would not know the problem could be hereditary as I do not know what breeds are in there. The mongrel would then just have his symptoms treated. Both dogs may well live to 12 years old, but both had the same disease the difference being it was recognised in one not the other. Does this make the mongrel more healthy because his disease was not recognised and named? Or are you saying that a mongrel is less likely to pick up virus infections or injuries - which frankly is ridiculous. Viruses are not breed specific.

I don't breed but i do own a dane and one of my top priorities was how soft they are, surely by crossing these dogs you are compromising the breed?
You don't know what the future holds do you? I hope for your sake they turn out good dogs and we don't read in the paper of them savagely attacking someone. Because i for one won't be happy at the negative attitudes that will then come with owning a dane.

Maxisleep, people talk about 'hybrid vigour' but it is difficult to compare carefully reared KC reg pups with Heinz 57s. Obviously it isn't going to be true in all cases, but KC breeders are likely to be more knowledgeable & careful about whelping and rearing, so it's a fair guess that more KC reg pups survive. That maybe isn't in itself such a good thing. When I began to breed it was standard practice to cull big litters in many breeds. Times and attitudes change and now those of us who still cull tend to do it very quietly. But to get to the point the weaker pups in many Heinz litters will be lost.

Then (and again this is only a generalisation) good KC breeders are more careful about where they home their pups, so those pups are likely to be taken to the vet more often and to have more expensive problems treated. The best of breeders will follow up their pups life long and will report problems that turn up. So the reporting of hereditary problems is likely to be higher in KC breeds. The very fact that there are Breed Clubs looking for and worrying about hereditary problems makes them sound commoner in KC breeds than Heinz 57 because no one is looking for problems, collating them or reporting them in, say, Heinz variety 43.

Also because on average KC reg dogs are more likely to have owners who take them to the vet and give them the best of care, more KC reg dogs are likely to make to great old age, and old dogs have more problems.

I don't dismiss 'hybrid vigour' altogether. It is real in the plant world and no one really disputes it in many types of livestock breeding. There are real problems with a closed stud book in limited gene pools. I'd be all on for the KC allowing allow carefully planned out-crosses to closely related breeds or even amalgamating some of the very closely related breeds with small gene pools.

But it isn't really possible to say that the general health of mongrels is better than KC reg. dogs.