HI all
Was just wondering if someone could help me clear something up.. I have always thought, (from what ive read and been told anyway) that the minimum age anyone should breed their bitch from is, two ? two and a half years old? is this correct.
any help much appreciated.
thanks emma

It depends on the dogs size to some extent, toys can be bred younger than a medium and that sooner than a large and so no. Medium breeds about 2 years, toys sooner, large and giant later. No bitch before their 3rd season is a good plan for toys and with the other not till mature but before their bones are full set for the first litter. This applies to bitches, dog can be used as soon as they are able to have the necessary health tests.

the bitch in question is a white westie? i know nothing about this breed apart form what it looks like..but by the reply just sent this breed should'nt be bred before its 3rd season.

Lady, the WHWT club of England code of ethics say not before 2nd season

Sorry this one doesn't seem linkable

It is very often stated on Champdogs that is unethical to breed any breed before 2 years old but this does not seem to be a view supported by the KC or many breed clubs, in fact if anyone knows of any breed smaller than say a labrador, whose club says not before 2 years I would be interested to know as I have looked at a few code of ethics so far and can't find any.  My personal view is that it is not necessary to wait til 2 or even 3 as I have seem some claim lately, for a breed such as a cocker spaniel and infact may be missing the bitches peak of fitness.  I don't really understand what is meant by mental maturity and we sometimes see it compared to young girls having babies but I see this as an anthromorphic red herring :) there are social and psychological reasons for young girls not to have babies but few dogs have plans for uni, getting the career off the ground etc :D.  My cocker produced her first litter within days of her 2nd birthday she was an excellent mother but returned to her daft ways as soon as she saw the back of them, in fact if I had waited for mental maturity I would perhaps be just considering her first litter now at the age of 9 :).  Of course if my breed club changed there code of ethics I would abide by it but I would hope they would do so on the basis of research evidence rather that a fashional view of things.

thanks for that reply cant say that breeding is ever something i have looked into before but in saying this i have heard several times that it shouldnt be done before such and such the reason i heard was for the dogs true identity to have appered(if ther is such a thing) ie .. to make a better choice of stud partner as well as things like any aggressive tendancy's ect appearing in the bitch?dog in question??
thanks very much for the advice and links i shall have a look. 
kind regards emma.

Thats an interesting point, Lady, but I would guess more relevent if the breeding was a shot in the dark as it were :)  If care has already been taken with temperaments etc it seems unlikely that something will rear its ugly head between birthday 1 and 2 that wasn't apparent before.

yes i would agree but i did once know a dog whos temprement just after he turned three?
no logical explanation was ever given for this just one of those unexplained things

There are also untestable hereditary conditions that don't appear in young dogs. For instance, epilepsy often doesn't show itself till 3 years of age.
:)

thanks jean so in your oppinion it would be better to wait an extra year
emma

I personally would prefer to wait till 3 for a first litter (my breed club Code of Conduct forbids mating before the bitch is 2) to be on the safe side. After all, what's the rush?
:)

I personally have to say that i would not by a pup from any bitch that had been bred under 2 years of age for myself ,but that is persoal preference.

im asking because it has come to my attention, that my younger sisters freind is wanting to breed her bitch on her next season and that should should be any time now.   
Her age will be 1and a half years the stud she wants to breed it with isnt pedigree, and both dogs have had no relevant health checks and dont have the time to have these done now as well as this the stud is a first timer.
This sent alarm bells ringing in my head and i told my sister that i didnt think this was a good idear....she then pass'ed the message along with my words of warning.
In reply to  what i thought was sound advice and reasons,( as i was always led to beleive ) the lady owner of the bitch in question  had spoken to her vet and he had said that it would be finr (some vet in my oppinion)
emma

I would have said the bitches age was the very least of the problems with this mating, in fact as we have seen not a problem at all according to the breed club :)

its such a shame she' is a lovely bitch she deserves more responsible owners
emma

I think you have to take each breed and learn about it fully. Some breeds are suited to one thing and others another.
Yes we all have to have personal preferences , that is what makes us unique but we also have know and understand things to come to that decisions.

Another thing in westies is that it is common for them to fill out a little after a litter and this is sometimes desirable if the are dogs that are shown. However I will stress again that it is a knowledgable breeder who will know her lines and dogs.

Pam

Where age was relevent to health matters I would expect it to be reflected in the club code of ethics, Jeanjeanie,
You say whats the rush but I say if there is no (likely occuring) reason not to why not?  The difference between choosing between the season before 2nd birthday and the one after could make a difference between rearing puppies in summer, winter, avoiding Christmas etc, it also helps the poor moody phantom pregnancy types to get on with what they are keen to do :)  My cocker had 8 monthly seasons if I had waited another one after the winter litter I did not want she would have been over 3 which I feel would have been definately too old for her although I would not of course say that for every bitch.  If any of my puppy buyers found that unethical they certainly didn't say so :) I'm sure in fact that they would have been as delighted as I was at the excellent condition she kept all through her nursing and her obvious pleasure in her litter.

Fair enough, Isabel. But if you have ever owned an epileptic dog (and no breed is clear of epilepsy) you would err on the side of caution.
:)

Probably would, Jeanjeanie :)

three to old for breeding i would have thought for most breeds this was the time that a bitch should be bred from (regardless of kc) standards. I did not quite understand why you say that three would not have been a suitable age to breed form your bitch..could you please elaborate(spelling??? lol) as like i say i have not ever bred and would like to understand a little more about it thakyou
emma.

I had attempted to have my previous cocker mated at about 3 1/2 as I was not in a position to breed before then she would not accept the dog at all (despite the help of another very experienced breeder) nor at the next season, I believe this can be common in bitches that live as solitary pets even though they appear sociable enough.  Amber lived with just one other dog and I felt for her it would not help to wait until she was entrenched in the way of things.  Those were my personal reasons as I say another owner may feel a different time would be right for their bitch but I would point out again that this is entirely within the code of ethics of my breed club which represents the views of the vast bulk of cockers breeders, certainly the ethical ones :)

thanks for the reply back
emma

Thats ok I've missed my bid on ebay though :)

ooops sorry about that.. does get addictive though, thanks again
emma

It didn't make the reserve so I expect they will relist it :)

My first bitch I mated at 3 years old, and had a lovely litter of 10 healthy pups, all of whom survived. My last bitch I mated just before she was two (this was when the club rules stated that a litter shouldn't be born before the bitch was 2) and only got 4 pups. But again, they were all very healthy. My next bitch won't have her first litter till she's 3.

Also we are not allowed to take more than 4 litters from a bitch - even 4 is excessive in my opinion - so there is no hurry!
:)

My breed is smaller than a labrador, and the minimum age for a litter is two years of age.  As on average a first litter is not until 8 to 10 months of age a bitch having her third season would be this age.

Here is the breed clubs code of ethics http://members.aol.com/BrElkClub/ethics.html 

Also few breeds have matured physically to be assesed as to their quality much before two years of age. 

Apart from anything else I don't understand the hurry, as a bitch has 6 breeding years between her 2nd and 8th Birthday, so plenty of time for a couple of litters.
The Kennel Club will not register a litter born to a bitch under 1 year old and over 8 years and no more than 6 litters to take into account breed didfferences.

A toy breed on it's second season may be old enough to be bred from, and may have six litters without it being considered overbreeding if they produce litters of ones and twos.

In my breed it is not considered ethical to breed more than four litters from a bitch.  Most breeders would breed fewer than that if the usual quite large (6 to 8 pups) litters are born.

Ambers first litter was born 6 days before her 2nd birthday, I think your club may have forgiven me :)

I mated my Kizi at two weeks prior to her second birthday so the litter were born when she was 26 months old, and she was a very easy bitch to mate, whelp and reared them very efficiently.  She didn't have her second litter for over 3 years.

Her daughter was a Champion before the age of two, but I put off mating her on the season after her second birthday as I wanted to take her to the World show in Holland in 2002. Her next season was just after her third birthday, and she would not accept the male who was older than her, but also a maiden.

By the next season she was over 3 1/2 and again would not stand for her chosen partner, and we only just managed to get her mated to the young proven dog I had hoped to use on her for her second litter.

We luckily did get pups when she finally had one mating just as she was going over (we had blood tests done), and the result was a long delivery to produce four pups, and a dead pup born a couple of hours later.  She was absolutely terrified producing the first pup, as he had little or no first stage labour, but when the second  came a switch just seemed to go off ih her head, and maternal instinct was in abundance.

Now whether the Primadonna behaviour was the resulkt of waiting until the bitch was too mature and forceful in character, or whether she would have been the same mated younger who knows.

My other two bitches had their first litters at 2 years 10 months and 2 years 9 months respectively and were great Mums and very willing to be mated.

OOPS!!!!!  That should read first season not until 8 to 10 months on average.  I do hate this timeout on editing!!!

Lady,

Most breeders do wait till their dogs are 2 ish .

With westies it is not uncommon for them to be bred on their 3rd season. SO this can be 18 months plus . Of course there is no hurray but they is belief or certainly from some breeders ( I will add good breeders with years of knowledge) that they have more trouble free whelping in a bitch that little bit younger.   Those who have told me this I know and trust 100% without question.  Breeders who choose to do this I will add know their lines inside out, know health history ad they will be line breeders, so they are not taking as much of a risk I believe. They will however do any necessary testing as always.

The situation you mention is nothing really so much to do with the age but the whole process, Dogs that cannot even be confirmed at WHWT should not be bred from at any age.  It disgusts me hearing these tails.

There is enough odd looking WHWT going around without people adding to them..  I saw this poor pitiful dog yesterday that the owner beleived was a WHWT the thing was huge in height and length with the worst skin problem I have ever seen in my life.  It came from undesirable breeding.   The thing could not catch a dead mouse never mind one alive.

Pam

I can see why anyone would be tempted to breed for myself if i was to breed it would be for the whole experience of it all..but for me that still isnt a good enough reason it would be a selfish reason.
the lady in question said she would like to breed her so she gets a good replica of the mum and that she would then have a bit of company as well?????? why not just buy another pup then from a reputable breeder with years of experience as well as all the right papers and health checks confirmed.
emma

thanks to everyone who posted a reply to me, I have passed all the infomation, that you have related to me on to karen and who knows it may do some good although i think she has her mind set to do it one way or the other , there's nothing else i can do unfortunetly apart from hope that she may have a change of heart and wait, at least untill all health checks have been done and she has researched the whole idear a little bit more (think its just wishfull thinking mind you)
but thanks once again.
kindest regards emma.

2nd season, minimum age is 12 months, most people wait longer though ;-)

Responsible, caring people wait longer. Puppy farmers don't care.

correct, and what horrible trolls they are!!!! ;-(

Responsible, caring people wait longer if that is appropriate to the breed or individual ;)

Well, my Miranda didn't have her first litter until she was 5 and she had 14 puppies!  She wasn't hipscored until 5 either and came back with a total score of 7!

Second litter at the age of 7 and another 14......make of that what you will!