Oh No Not Again!

Well as I have been banned from one board for speaking about the ‘anti-fox-hunting’ bill. I may as well spell things out on here :)

Am I in favour of fox hunting with hounds and men in red coats and the ‘Stirrup Cup’ etc? NO
As I am not in favour of fox hunting, as outlined above, I am therefore in favour of the bill? NO

The truth, of the abysmally worded Scottish bill, seems somewhat adapted by the media to be solely an anti-fox-hunting bill ie foxes hunted and killed by hounds being ridden by men (or women) in red-coats and who speak REIGHT POSH! As on Leighs thread it is clear there are many 'non posh toffs' who ride to hounds and/or hunt followers.

In reality the bill is worded so that it can ONLY be described as an anti-dog bill. There is the power that ANY dog chasing almost ANY wild mammal can be taken from its owner and destroyed, the owner’s vehicle seized and the owner liable to a fine, a prison sentence and a criminal record, PLUS they being disqualified from keeping a dog ever again. This is what is being proposed in England (and Wales!!)

In the Scottish Bill you are OK to chase rabbits but NOT hares but how a dog tells the difference is beyond me!

So when you are out walking in the countryside, or even your local park, and your dog chases a squirrel you are liable to become dogless forever and endure a prison sentence and a fine and lose your vehicle and possibly your job. OK realistically it is unlikely that the constabulary will be leaping into action as if they could ever leap into anything:) over a dog chasing a squirrel. BUT, that is a big BUT, anyone allowing a dog to do so will be BREAKING THE LAW and liable for sentencing as above. Just imagine a fat peke chasing a squirrel and being taken into custody along with its 90yr old owner, and think what the Daily **&**&** would make of the ensuing legal action. Laughable maybe but IF this law is allowed through that is exactly what could happen.

There are exceptions to the bill in that mammals may be flushed by dogs in order for them to be shot or killed by a bird of prey NB there is a proviso that ‘all reasonable steps’ are taken to retrieve and kill any animal that is shot. Which clearly indicates that shooting does not always kill the animal. You will end up with a number of severely injured foxes etc that crawl off to die in agony. Foxes are vermin, as are rats and mice, and do need keeping in check.

The law will allow shooting, hawking and fishing but one must ask for how much longer. Some arguments reign that are totally anti-blood sports and they are held by reasonable people but, contrarywise, there are many valid reasons for hunting to continue in its present form eg it is the price of shooting over heather that keeps many of our moorlands alive, and many rivers are kept clean and viable for the pursuit of fishing.

As I said at the start I am neither pro nor anti HUNTING but the law as in Scotland and the one proposed in England is not an anti-fox-hunting bill but an anti-dog bill.

Maybe I should reach for my tin hat now :) :) :)

Longdog

Admin Note: Edit on Title ;-)

Thats wrong! the goverment cant do that. I agree with you this is an anti-dog bill. What about the people who live in the countryside and walk their dogs there, hares pop out all the time. Its ridiculous what are we supposed to do keep dogs on leads at all times, well im sorry but thats not acceptable, this bill seems to have gone out of controll I thought it was supposed to be about fox hunting, not our dogs!!!
I am neither for or against hunting, being brought up in the countryside I am used to seeing hunts and do quite enjoy to see them galloping across the countryside although I try to put the fox out of my mind and hope it gets away, but I do understand evrey ones view and do accept it is part of countryside culture so I am not against it but dont support it. if that makes sense bit of a fence sitter me really.
What bothers me is the thousands of dogs that will be shot that cant be rehomed for obvious reasons thats what upsets me most about all this mess!
But as for the bill well come on surely common sense will prevail- dogs love chasing fact of life and people shouldnt be expected to keep dogs on leads in the middle of nowhere just in case a hare should pop up.

longdog,

After getting through your long posting! I can see what your saying and it is total maddness. Your right anti dogs?? On our walks with Molly she is off her lead we go to a countyside park which as hills forest lake etc and is enjoyed by mums dads with their kids, and us dog owners too. We have poo bins etc, to show that we are reasponsible owners. (but a few let us down on that subject) If Molly sees a rabbit she will chase it, but has no idea what to do if she does catch it she will then let it go to chase it again! its a game to her though at that point she is callled back to leave the rabbit alone I wont have her scaring it. So if she does this and the nice policeman sees it I could be prosecuited and Molly taken away? Have the police not got enough to do then? Can't sort out the mugings sex offences etc but will now go and arrest us? Oh what joy!! NOT?

The world is going mad!!

Julieann

Julieann If you don't want your dog to scare the rabbit then don't let her chase it.

A fox hunted is killed by one dog in the pack when it is fought over the fox is already dead, I take my own dogs 'ratting' down a local farm and believe me one flick of their heads and the rat is dead. You watch a fox with a pack of hounds behind it and it's not running it's usually trotting across the field not taking a lot of notice as they are the top of the food chain not prey for a four legged animal.

A rabbit sees a dog and dosen't know the difference between that and a fox it's natural enemy, so you have an animal stressed ready to run for it's life. If your dog catches said rabbit it's scared, it doesn't know that you're going to tell the dog to stop 90% of the time the rabbits that dogs catch then lose and chase again die within a few hours from stress. I can't tell you how many rabbits I've picked up on walks that don't have a mark on them and no sign of illness but very dead.

This bill will allow anyone who has a problem with you to contact the police and report you and your dog for hunting if it chases any mammal be it real of fictious. I say people who don't like dog owners because that's how I envisage the law being used by the anti dog lobby like they do over noise nusance. The police will have the right to enter your property without a warrant and to remove your dog/s and anything they deem to be hunting related equipment. Just think another tax especially for us dog owners.

I have become tired of hearing the pro hunting folk hiding behind other sports/country pursuits such as fishing and shooting claiming 'these will be next'. This seems to me to be a poorly disguised attempt (although I must admit probably quite effective) to gather support from other country folk who dont like fox hunting but fear for their own pursuits which I am not aware are under threat at all.
The ignoring of requests to keep off fields of heavy clay, the blocking of gateways by hardly used smart horse boxes and 4WD's are factors which really hack off a lot of us country dwellers
aswell as the assumption that everyone who objects to the principle is a 'Townie'

Depending who he is talking to our local master of the hounds claims either that they hardly get any foxes anyway or that it is the only real means of fox control available. Cant have it both ways.
My neighbour takes great delight in waiting until the hunt flush out the fox then shoots it! This really annoys the hunt (shame!!)
As for foxes being difficult to shoot properly, what rot! as long as a full bore rifle is used and not a shot gun(unless realy close) then it is an effective and quick method of control.
Ted

Just a quickie Ted - I should stay well out of the way of your neighbour if he is so trigger- happy with other folk and animals close by!!!

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

But TED the problem is NOT whether foxes are chased and caught by the local hunt. Nor is it being in favour or anti the fox being hunted at all.

The point is as I posted at the head of this topic:-
In the Scottish Bill dogs are OK to chase rabbits but NOT hares but how a dog tells the difference is beyond me! .
So when you are out walking in the countryside, or even your local park, and your dog chases a squirrel you are liable to become dogless forever and endure a prison sentence and a fine and lose your vehicle and possibly your job.

IT is dogs chasing mammals and not just your local hunt chasing foxes. It is folk such as yourself, and that is not meant in any way derogortarily
(?sp), who are not aware of the reality.
This BILL WILL affect ALL OF US with dogs.

schip

Fare comment. But don't turn me into somebody that does not care about wild life or scaring rabbits with Molly. Your right about the rabbit not having any idea whether Molly is a dog or the fox coming for its dinner. It must be so frightend, and your brave putting out of its pain.

I am a responsible dog owner, not like some I have come across on our walks around the park, some really don't care what they catch. But if this bill does come in where does it leave us dog owners on there walkies, many dogs like Molly just like the chase running around with each other I do feel that this bill is anti dogs and us owners. Though some owners do let the side down as mentioned.

Julieann

Well said Longdog! I wouldn't be at all sanguine about the application of common sense when it comes to the squirrel chased by the fat peke in the park. Some of the lunatic cases brought under the Dangerous Dogs Act (which had majority popular support in 1991), would suggest otherwise.

Wasn't there a toothless old pet belonging to an old lady that got done by the DDA?

I think that was my next door neighbours animal it shows it's gums to everybody

That's right, and a dog that's muzzle had only been removed in order to allow it to be sick, and one that was arrested because it was spied unmuzzled in it's owner's moving car. Then there was the one that became a dangeous dog after a neighbour's cat died in the dog's garden. The dog may have got it, but the cat's owner thought the cat, which was very old, had fallen off a wall and died, or vice versa. Whatever happened, yet another neighbour reported the event, and the dog was DDA'd. Can't remember any more, but there were other daft cases.

Sorry I can just not understand in this world full of killings what people get out of
seeing a small animal torn to pieces by "adults and children" watching and enjoying .

And yes I do believe in culling foxes but not with an audience present.

This article on fox hunting by [link http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2002/03/15/do1501.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2002/03/15/ixopinion.html]Brian Walden[/link] in today's Telegaph is well worth reading.

I am not a Telegraph reader, but Brian Walden has hit the nail on the head there :-)

Hi Leigh, Walden has a way of 'cutting the crap' as Messrs Davies & Dyke would say :-)

The internet has changed my newspaper habits. I used to buy the Torygraph and the Gruniad day about in the hope of getting some sort of balance, but rarely got either read. Now I can have a quick look at all the papers online before I take the dogs out in the morning. The only time that creates a problem is if I have a piddling puppies :-)

I thought it was excellent.

That's a sound piece of journalism.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Excellent. I do not profess to know anything about the subject, threfore what right have I to meddle. Those who are vegetarian I am sure think the farming of meat should be banned, sorry I like my meat, four footed game especially. As long as Farm animals are kept in good conditions while alive, and conservation needs are paramount when hunting game animals, then I am happy to enjoy my meat.

Hunting an animal with a natural predator where the animal if caught is despatched, can only be better than shooting and missing (need a dog to track the wounded ones then?), or barbarous traps or poison.

No Elk hunt in Scandinavia can be undertaken without a trained dog to track the animal if it is wounded. There are more modern ways than the Elkhound for finding the game in the first polace, but the dogs are still used, as they are the only choice for finding the wounded efficiently.

brainless .I am a vegetarian and my son's eat meat ,No we do not all think farm animals
should not be eaten,But I will still not change my views on blood sports.
it still comes down to other people's pleasure in seeing animals killed for sport.

This old cherry just because your vegetarian you are the one's that are the bad guys
just will not wash mate change the tune please.

Patricia, I don't know that there is an attitude that "just because your vegetarian you are the one's that are the bad guys", and I don't think that is what Brainless was suggesting. Personally I respect vegans/serious vegetarians who argue against hunting. The ones that annoy are those who oppose hunting as they chomp happily through intensively farmed meat. One of my own reasons for lamping (not coursing) is to get meat that has not been intensively farmed.

Sharon you will laugh at my one and only nights lamping. A friends other half used to go lamping with his lurcher Bo, and come home with the spoils.

I kept teasing him that he had got the rabbits from a farmer friend to cover up other nocturnal activities of an ilicit romantic kind (in jest of course). His other half could barely stand to see the rabbits which he prepared, ands certainly didn't share his interest, but I was curious.

Cut a long story short, he took me out one night to 4 of his favourite haunts, and not one rabbit did we bag or even see!!!

LOL Brainless, something like that what always happens to me when I try to 'demonstrate' anything. I wish the person demonstrated upon was online because he tells this story much better than I do, but it concerns his one and only lamping foray with yours truly. Ian has working gundogs, and was forever telling me that I should get 'a proper dog', while I responded by pointing out every little fault in Mick, his favourite lab. (An easy task - on Mick's last shooting foray, he managed to uncork a bottle of port carelessly left in the back of the landrover, and drink the entire contents, before they arrived at the shoot :-) It didn't improve his performance! ). Given the teasing, I'd never held back on boasting the prowess of my best hound, and having talked her up so much I was determined that she would give a good display. So the night was carefully chosen - moonless cloudy, complete with breeze and miserable drizzle - and Ian was inundated with imprecations about what would happen if he spoiled the dog's chances with rustling clothes, whispers or big noisy feet.

There were plenty of rabbits and all should have gone well. I just hadn't counted on my husband (another Ian) and his little helper. At the time we had two cats, one of them very black, and very keen on coming for walks. Of course I'd made sure that this cat was shut in the house before setting out, but hubbie made equally sure that the door was opened the moment we were gone. With the result that when we arrived in the first location, and I was about to slip the dog, the silence was broken by a resonant 'Miaooowwww’! Cue rapid dispersal of all bunnies, speeded on by loud honks of laughter from Ian and even louder curses from the would-be hunter. We did try to give the cat the slip, but that's easier said than done, and even had we succeeded I doubt that it would have helped because both of us had seen the funny side by then, and kept breaking into helpless giggles. Needless to say we returned to a much amused husband with no rabbits, a very disgruntled dog – and closely followed by a triumphant feline hunt saboteur!

Talking of gigles, on this foray we ended up in a field with big red cattle, who followed us to the edge of the next field, if we wwalked faster they walked faster and we were in danger of being surrounded by a wall of beef, so we walked very nochalantly to the next field, and then fell about laughing, as both of us were very aware that it couylds have gone wrong. the head cow proceeeded to moo her head off until we were out of sight!

A lady in my breed has sadly had her leg smashed up by a cow (hers) being overprotective of a calf. She had been in the field for hours before being spotted, and had to be airlifted out!

Thank you sharon for you reply, "a REAL Vegetarian" will not eat meat of any kind
some people even folk I know will say I only eat Chicken. I have not heard of lamping
what an earth is that ?? but suppose if it's using dogs you get the rabbitt out of its hole then shoot it ? But if you get pie eyed on port suppose you must miss more then
you kill, And ending up in a field of cows I would have screamed with laughter .

But ending up Sharon, many people think because you are a vegetarian they think it is their devine right to explain why you are missing out not eating meat.Me I just hate
the thought of eating a dead body .

Hello Patricia, lamping, or what people in the US call spotlighting is just what it sounds like - using a lamp with a narrow beam to illuminate nocturnal prey. Some people do 'shoot on the lamp', or in other words, shoot down the beam of the lamp to kill the prey they have illuminated. What Brainless and I are talking about however, does not involve guns. It is very difficult for even the fastest dog to take rabbit by daylight, because rabbits do not stray far from their burrows in the day. So the lamper goes out at night when rabbits feed further from their burrows, and shines the beam across the field to where they think the rabbits are. Once a rabbit appears in the light beam, the dog is then slipped, and it runs down the beam and takes the rabbit. Some people think that the idea is to make the rabbit 'freeze' in the light, as they often do in car headlamps, but that isn't the idea. When a field or area is first lamped, many rabbits do freeze, but they soon catch on and learn to run when they see the light. Also many dogs, especially if they are inexperienced, will not take a 'sitter' or rabbit frozen in the light beam. As often as not the dog will race up to a 'sitter', only to walk round it or even nudge it in a puzzled way. These days the specially made lamps are very powerful and use rechargable dry batteries, but you don't really need custom made kit with all those candlepowers. When I was first taken lamping by my grandfather, he used an old motorcycle headlamp rigged up to a (wet!) car battery.

It was Mick the labrador that got pie-eyed, much to the annoyance of the two Ians who came home sober because the port was in the dog :-)

I have no problem with people who choose not to eat meat for whatever reason, as long as they don't proselytise at me. A strict vegetarian or even vegan diet can be completely adequate, especially now, when supermarkets provide all sorts of imported vegetable proteins that would not be available locally. I do think though, that people who choose vegan diets need to be very careful about supplememting. I know one young man who ended up having a liver transplant because he over-supplemented his vegan diet with over-the-counter mineral additives. I also think that vegans, need to consider very carefully before feeding growing children a vegan diet. When all is said and done, humans are designed for an omnivorous diet, and it takes a certain amount of knowledge to cut out all animal products safely.

You are so right , Children need meat to grow .The reason people are vegan is because meat disgusts them . I myself go off meat and then get a longing for a good steak,but it is a personal choice and children may make that choice when they grow up. One of my daughters does not eat meat. she has a problem getting the live animal out of her head when sitting in front of chicken lamb etc. but she does eat fish . she does not have a problem with fish . She gives my grandsons meat, says she could not deprive them of it because of her feelings.

Hi Sharon ,That was so interesting thank you for explaining the procedure
I am not a vegan I will not eat fish meat or poultry or cheese with animal rennet.I love milk and flora.
And yes I do have leather shoes and a leather coat .My sons have always been meat eaters I think they would eat me! if no meat was available but I try to buy organic and English products,My husband is a vegetarian
we have both been for over twenty two years but i would not say i was healthier or
un-healthier then any meat eater it is a matter of choice. When I went to Austrialia
the Kangaroos are killed that way first with a light then shot . But thanks for the explanation you learn a new thing every-day.

I so enjoy reading something as well written and thought provoking as this article. It concisely slices through the chaff and for me has laid bare the kernels of this debate for the first time in a way I can now consider. I have found it extremely difficult to decide how I feel about hunting. I live in the heart of Belvoir Country, not far from the Quorn and so in prime Leicestershire Hunting land. We have hunts through our village often (now that they are hunting again after F&M). I love the romance and tradition, the sound of the horn floating over open countryside has to be one of the most stirring sounds you can imagine. But if I then see the hunt in full flight I feel a stab of sentimental revulsion of which I am half ashamed. This then leaves me in a quandary. Thankfully I am not in the position where I personally have to decide and inflict my decision on others.

Have read the piece in the Telegraph and agree totally. The real issue with Fox hunting is that it is perceived as belonging to the past - and that would never do would it, in our Oh So Modern 'things could only get better' Britain?
Welcome to Britain 2002, where the trains don't run, the schools don't work and decent people with life threatening illnesses can't get an appointment to see a consultant until they are already dead. And this Government is worried about a few people chasing a fox occassionally?!!!!!
As I observed in another post, there are many more foxes killed on our roads than by hunting.
Enough said!

Sharon

Sharon you would do well at hyde park corner standing on a box on a sunday
but I must admitt all your points was mostly true and to the point.
and each and every government I Believe have been responsible.

Just read an interesting article in The Countrymans Weekly regarding the Hunting Ban in Scotland. Apparently it is still ok to hunt foxes as long as the Huntsman carries a gun and if he can get a clear shot, shoots the fox before the hounds get to it. It seems some Scottish Hunts are considring driving the foxes towards a line of guns, as this way they can save the hounds. I can't find a copy of the Scottish ban, but it sounds to me like it's now still ok to hunt as long as they carry a gun with them.
Ingrid

Hi Ingrid, yes the Scottish Parliament are being remarkably shy about this effort, but you should be able to download it as a PDF file here. Or if the link is dead - it often is - drop me a note and I can e-mail it.

No one really seems to know for sure about the hunt with hounds, then shoot suggestion. No doubt it will be tried, and then in all probability it will have to be settled in the courts, wasting of money and time.

Just think what the bill is really about. It is NOT about banning fox-hunting. It is NOT about rural pastimes. It is NOT about field sports
it IS about stopping dogs doing what dogs do. It IS a carefully worded anti-dog bill.
AT the moment I have not heard of the results of the Commons vote (or if they have voted yet) but do not expect anything other than an outright AYE tonight and a close NAY tomorrow. There will be the usual clamour of press mis-information and an excess of trees chopped down so the 'Man on the Clapham Omnibus' can get his information (NOT).
Who is going to read Brian Waldren's article or any other 'PRO' article information and then make an informed decision? Idoubt many folk will read what the bill IS about.
I still stick with where I started this thread ie:- (talking of the Scottish Bill)
In reality the bill is worded so that it can ONLY be described as an anti-dog bill. There is the power that ANY dog chasing almost ANY wild mammal can be taken from its owner and destroyed, the owner?s vehicle seized and the owner liable to a fine, a prison sentence and a criminal record, PLUS they being disqualified from keeping a dog ever again. This is what is being proposed in England (and Wales!!)

In the Scottish Bill you are OK to chase rabbits but NOT hares but how a dog tells the difference is beyond me!

This is ANY dog chasing ANY mammal (with some exceptions).

In flippant mode - My dogs DO know the difference between hares and rabbits.

They can catch rabbits. (especially poor myxy ones)
They can't catch hares.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Sharon,
If more foxes are killed on roads than by the hunt then it is not an effective means of control so the pro hunt lobby should stop using that arguement.
Longdog
What about terriers chasing rats ?? is that allowed ?
Ted

My understanding is that it IS OK as long as it is done for vermin control and for no other reason.

So the ratter mustn't look like he is enjoying himself ;)
Ted

perish the thought the dogs must look like it is a nasty chore:D

Hi LD, you and me both!!! I got a right pasting on another board for having Lurchers, and I dont even work them, ever. They are just my pets.
( I have a feeling everyone thinks I am a gypsy. lol )

OOH Phil you mean your Not LOL :)

LOL Hi Mattie, well I suppose I could be mistaken foe one. You know, a cold wet windy day, out with the dogs, clean out the kennels, covered in muddy paw prints, but Im not, honest!!!