Hi Everyone
I know many posts have already been left about this topic but I'm afraid that I've read them all and tried them all.
I have a 20 week old Dobermann puppy who apart from the mouthing issue is really good. The toilet training is going better really than I ever expected (100% dry day, dry for 8 hours approx 5 out of 7 nights), he is fine at basic obedience that he has been going to since 12 weeks, he has not chewed or destroyed anything that he shouldn't (although has a plentiful supply of toys chews etc), and he is an angel on walks.
I left my job at Christmas to take him in January and therefore apart from wanting to get on with a few other things that I do from home, he is my sole occupation (and I have to say nothing much has been done except with him since I got him !!)

I was so concerned to do everything right that I got a behaviourist in when he was 12 weeks mainly for the biting - in hindsight, maybe an overeaction at the time (although she also suggested a gentle leader which has tranformed our walkies to an absolute pleasure!). She basically told me to transfer his attention to other things and said he was a v intelligent little thing and was fairly strong willed but not vicious- she also fed him a lot of LUNG tit bits (urgh!!) and as a result he was quite angelic when she was here !!

He has always mouthed and it was pretty constant when we first got him and I had been told NEVER to smack him so started of with squirting water at him (used to spontaneously wee on the floor !!) then it started working and now he thinks it is a game, similiarly with "ouch" he thinks is a game, tried ignoring - difficult to ignore when he then chews at clothing or jumps up or bites back of ankles. Then we started putting him out the room for time out which seems to work best. In the first 4 weeks my arms and hands were covered with scratches which I'm glad to say they are no longer.
I'm afraid that in the meantime, I have lost my rag and slapped his nose and tried the newspaper (I'm not a saint!!) but he seems to think that all of those are a game.
He now does it a lot less frequently, and less persistantly and seems to know that it is wrong as often nips and then runs away as he knows he will be put in his room for time out and thankfully, he does not seem to be marking marks on us anymore but it is still not amusing and although some of his teeth have changed so it is not as sharp, it can hurt. Often when he comes out he is an angel for 5 minutes and licks us to death and then may do it again.
I know that all puppies do this but am worrying that no "one thing" seems to do the trick. A lot of people have said he will just grow out of it but I have to say, you worry about whether that is true and I am willing to try anything in the meantime to make it stop asap. At the moment we do put him in a separate room for time out as it seems to have the best effect and I'm well aware that a part of training is consistancy.

What am I doing wrong? I am entirely open to constructive critisism and willing to do anything so we can have a less frustrating relationship.
Thanks
B

Don't put him out of the room, remove yourself. Pull your hand away, say nothing just walk away, ignore him, until he is behaving as you wish, don't be to quick to forgive. Worth a try different dogs different methods. Try and make sure that whatever method you are trying that everyone uses the same method. ie "if you chew us we will ignore you, yes all of us". Hope it helps, Jackie H

Hi guest,
You're right that mouthing is perfectly normal for puppies to do, it's how they learn bite inhibition. If you're substituting hands and arms for toys and chew sticks however, then they haven't learnt this inhibition and with a big breed such as yours IMO it's essential they do. Substituting, squirting with water/vinegar, smacking noses will all probably work in time and stop your pup from chewing on you....it has never taught the pup though that human skin is fragile and that to mouth/bite on it is going to hurt us greatly!
All dogs are able to kill/tear carcasses and crack bones with their jaws, they are not born with soft mouths and have to be taught to be soft mouthed by actually allowing some playbiting...puppy comes along with needle like teeth, has a good old chew, owner yelps/screeches loudly and stops all play just as would happen in the litter. I know you've said you've tried this but please, keep it up...puppy will get the message!! Everybody in the house needs to do this, even if the mouthing doesn't hurt you, yelp/screech and act all wounded, all playing/petting stops and ignore the pup for a good few minutes. Given enough repeated feedback like this, puppy will actually sit there and think, 'wow, humans are fragile aren't they, better not chew on them again' (or that's how it's supposed to go, maybe he'll just moderate his bites and so you start the process over again) ;) Hopefully, a pup taught bite inhibition this way, (especially the large breeds) will carry through it's life the knowledge that human skin is fragile and never to be mouthed/mauled...it's just a matter of us humans being more stubborn than the dogs when it comes to teaching them...we've probably all lost our rag at some time, but honestly, 'patience is a virtue' when it comes to training dogs! ;)

EDIT: to say, you're not doing anything wrong, if anything your pup's mouthing you less which means it is sinking in to that little head of his....hence my post above, that it's working and why it's great to teach B/inhibition this way....

Totally agree with both the above, but would add that some strong little pups think yelping is a game - it's just the way it is, many do learn to be more gentle but not 100% of pups. My girl reacted very excitedly when i yelped so had to do the "out the room" scenario. She is very reactive and no way would i have done anything else, as we would have ended up battling and i just wanted her to understand what was required. She's now pretty good :) (fingers crossed LOL) so my "two pence worth" would be to just persevere and keep at it ;)

He sounds gorgeous by the way :)

Lindsay

Sorry I don't think yelping works after 8 or 9 weeks, after that it becomes exciting for the dog and is a 'reward' for their bad behavior, I note that the poster said that having nipped the dog runs away because he know his owner will chase him to put him out of the room, all good fun.
The worst thing about this is that the original poster does not know how or what experianced, we who reply are. Well I have no degree in any thing I only speak form my experiance as a dog owner and it is posible that the person having the oppsite view might have a lot of training in dog training and sadly it is up to you to decide. I would add that if followed consistantly most training will show a sign of inprovment within 4 days.
Jackie H

Hi B

Most Dobermann pups are really sensitive little souls at heart under all that bouncing - if you say a sharp NO! and really mean it, the shock should make him stop and then praise him for what ever he is doing at the time - walking backwards probably.

Most of my Dobes are quite mouthy, in three of them this has converted into carrying things around, but my oldest one will take hands and gently drag people around if given the chance or her daughter's ear and walk around with her attached, waggling madly all the time.

Another method - which I use with my older girl is that if she gets a little rough - I just stick my thumb up so if she bites down the nail goes into the top of her mouth as she bites down - this tends to make her more gentle.

One thing I now advise my "puppy people" to do is if their pup picks up anything, supress all natural instincts, praise pup madly and get him to give it to you. If it is something he can have then give it back - if it is something, Sunday joint, new shoes etc that he should not have then replace it with something he can have.

His teeth will still be settling in at 20 weeks but the worst of the mouthing should be over - it will probably start again briefly around 12 months.

Hope this helps

Christine

Thanks everyone. Will try and see what happens.
On a spooky note, went to get my car serviced today and bumped into a lady with a Dobermann and after 2 mins of conversation realised it was Christine from Kerioak. God must really know that I need an angel on this one !!

How mad is that ?
Anyway, she saw the said monster today and yes Lindsay, you are right, he is gorgeous although occasionally I do pull my hair out !

Thanks a lot
Beth

Hi Beth

It was really weird to meet you after your message as we could have been from anywhere as this list is read around the world, and to meet you like that just after you had posted - the chances against it must have been thousands to one against.

Please get in touch again and we can arrange to meet up - on purpose this time :-)

Bi
Christine

Goodness, what are the odds on meeting like that?! Oooh it's kind of spooky! Someone somewhere said there's no such thing as coincidence, only a sort of synchronicity, in the universe. (Don't ask me who said it though :) )

Amazing! :)

LIndsay

Hi Lindsay
When did your baby stop mouthing then?
We went to the vets today (bad dandruff and me an anxious overreacting mother) and he said that it was fairly obvious that Jake's back teeth were quite painful so therefore I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt, be consistant but try not to loose my rag so much.

Not looking forward to Thursday, the boy goes away for 5 days on a jolly so I have 5 whole days and nights of this on my own !! (normally, I am on my own all day but at least there are teo of us from 7.30pm onwards) God, if I could forward to next Tuesday, I would!

Thanks for your help
Beth

HI Beth

Don't worry about beingon your own, its amazing the difference a dog makes, even a pup :)

To be honest I can't remember exactly when Banya stopped mouthing, it was such a gradual process, but that was how i wanted it. I think, IMHO, we sometimes forget that we maybe might have to open their mouths at some stage and pop in a pill or whatever, or have the vet look at their mouths, so I wanted her to learn that I am a weak human who hurts when her mouth grabbed at me, but that it is still OK for her mouth to be in contact with my fingers etc if I want to examine her....does that make sense?

Have fun with your Dobe pup, they are lovely dogs :)

LIndsay

Sorry to but in, but I cannot understand why puppy breeders/owners allow their puppies to mouth them at all! When my little puppies start using my fingers as a yummy bone they get a screech of "ouch" and if they do it again get a gentle tap on the nose with one finger and are told NO. I only have to do this 3 or 4 times at the very most and sometimes only once and the puppy never bites or chews me again. None are head shy or the slightest bit nervous of my hand and go to new homes at 8 weeks knowing that they are not allowed to use their teeth on people. As most of my pupies go to companion homes with children it makes for a happy family, there is nothing worse than a spoilt puppy who is allowed to become aggressive and dominant. Once allowed to bite it will lead to more and more dominant behaviour. Surely these "mouthing" puppies are BITING, but its "called" mouthing to make it sound less serious. My lab puppy used to get hold of my hand /sleeve gently and try and take me for a walk, but she never attempted to hurt me , that is what I call mouthing. I dont want to start an argument but sincerely believe that the reason so many behavourists are needed these days is because owners do not suppress this natural urge that almost every dog has to dominate if it can and we now have generations of spoiled dogs who think they can rule and be obeyed in the home. We wouldn't let our children bite us - would we? It is so easy to stop when they are small and in my opinion is all part of good puppy rearing.

<<<I dont want to start an argument but sincerely believe that the reason so many behavourists are needed these days is because owners do not suppress this natural urge that almost every dog has to dominate if it can and we now have generations of spoiled dogs who think they can rule and be obeyed in the home.>>>

And I believe it works the other way! (also not wanting to start an argument though) ;) but, "the reason so many behaviourists are needed these days is because owners *DO* suppress a dogs natural urge"!! Not just with chewing/mouthing but also many other behaviours. We owners are guilty of taking in an animal into our families and trying to turn them into 'perhaps not humans' (although some are surely guilty of that) but into something a dog is definately not.
Take biting when a puppy...surpressed or redirected and IMO (and a few others) and the dog will not truly learn bite inhibition. My B/C was a good example of why squeezing their snouts whilst saying 'no bite' will get the idea across but doesn't teach them their bite strength. If you ever got an accidental nip off him whilst playing with a toy etc you knew about it....he also would think nothing of nipping you if accidentally hurt him (while trying to brush him mainly or cut his nails). Both GS's taught the 'yelp and ignore' way however will go out of their way when playing with toys with anybody (children too) to avoid your 'ever so fragile skin'!:)
Digging is another natural urge to a dog....instead of filling in holes and telling off a dog that digs, why not let it have a certain spot in the garden where it can dig 'til it's heart content, or a purpose built sand box etc....your dog will love you forever for it! ;)
Peeing is the most natural urge to a pup and yet you still have owners who find a spot on the floor, take puppy back to it (whithout ever catching in the act) and 'rub it's nose in it' (or even worse, abuse the dog)!!! IMO they should rub their own noses or attack themselves for *not* being quick enough! :(
Surpressing some natural urges though can definately work in your favour. EG: I never let my intact male stop and sniff and then mark whilst out on a walk, why? because to do so would cause him to perceive that *his* territory outside my home is bigger than what it actually is...this way any passing, local but latchkey dogs can safely walk by us without *him* having 'a go at them'. I have a friend who lets her dog do just that, she's forever letting her male stop and sniff and then mark....she then wonders why her dog tries to attack any passing off lead dog!!
As for chewing, that's just so natural to a dog I think it's cruel to surpress it. If you've ever watched a pack of wild dogs/wolves when they're eating, they go for the meat first obviously and then quietly go off somewhere to have a good ole chew on the bones that are left. My own dogs do there own version of this daily after every meal. They tuck into their kibble then without fail seek out their 'nylabones' to finish off with a good chew....granted it can be annoying when you feed them at night then settle down to watch something on tv perhaps...all you can hear is the furious chewing instead of what's on the box! ;) To tell them to stop though would be cruel, we just turn the tv up!!!:p

<<<there is nothing worse than a spoilt puppy who is allowed to become aggressive and dominant.>>>
Now that I do agree with, whatever size/type or breed. There is a big difference though in 'biting', 'chewing' and 'mouthing' which some owners fail to understand (and I've been guilty myself with past dogs), a lot are quick to label the pup/dog aggressive which isn't always the case!......JMO though as ever. :)

Hi JackuiN, I do agree with you about all the other natural urges- chewing-give 'em something they are allowed to chew, digging etc and to give them as natural a life as possible ie they have plenty of play and exersise, good grub and companionship and whatever training they need to fit in to each individual owners lives. If I sold puppies that bite/mouth me, think how they would progress with a novice or first time dog owner with small children? We will have to agree to differ on this one, thankyou for your civil reply.

I have to agree none of the dogs I have owned have been allowed to mouth from the word go, and the ones that I have kept and bred myself knew not to do it to me from about 4 weeks old. Unfortunately this doesn't always mean that they do not become mouthy in their new homes, when for whatever reason they thinkthey can do it. It is a very hard habit to break, and in my experience in older pups of 6 months plus, the yelp method does not work, the puppy just gets more excited! Physical correction, shaking etc also seems to add to the game. In these cases a non physical method of distraction has worked best for me (such as the water spray in the face), or actually putting my fist in pups mouth and making it gag, so that it can't wait to be rid of my hand! The second method only works on a good natured pup who does have bite inhibiton, in that it isn't trying to hurt you , but does so inadvertently, because it views this as a way of getting attention, and having a game.

At pet Obedience class this is one of the problems nearly every owner asks about. One method I have used with yong determined mouthy pups is to roll them on their backs and when roughing them a bit playfully, they start to mouth, I put their own paws in their mouth, they soon learn not to bite hard :D

<<<If I sold puppies that bite/mouth me, think how they would progress with a novice or first time dog owner with small children?>>>

That's not quite what I mean!
I think I've been misunderstood somewhere along the line 'WestieLvr', I really don't mean that you should encourage a pup to bite, not in the way I think you've interpreted me anyhow (but that's ok...I :confuse: myself most of the time :D )...Just that (*IMO*) some mouthing is beneficial in order to teach inhibition and that *I'd* be slightly wary of a dog never taught that way. I'm still of the opinion though that lots of dog owners are to quick too label the pup aggressive/naughty without fully understanding their dogs 'natural urges'..ie, chewing/mouthing/biting...:)

Hi JackuiN, I didn't think that you were encouraging puppies to bite. I am not an all breed behaviour expert at all but know the character of my own breed well. I know that if the puppy biting that almost all puppies (all breeds) indulge in, is allowed to continue unchecked in Terriers that very soon puppies will very soon be biting properly and once established is probably very hard to stop. Westies are very quick to take advantage and establish themselves as leader of the "family pack" with dire consquences, they like to be in total control if they can. Westies are sadly often portrayed as being snappy and noisy and doubtless some are, and possibly all because the breeder "ignored" behaviour that should IMO be stopped the moment it started. Why allow it to develop when it is so easily and quickly stopped in a 5 week puppy. By the time they leave me at 8 weeks they are totally "unbitey" and also confident and well adjusted, not hand or head shy. My breed are brave and fearless were originally bred to use their teeth very quickly and effectively and for the size of dog have huge gnashers. Softer mouthed dogs like gundogs can perhaps be treated differently. I just find it so hard to understand why someone would allow a litter of puppies hurt them, it may be all very well when you are dealing with one puppy but when you have 5 or 6 biting at your feet and legs and fingers is no joke. Its not very nice either to have your nose bitten either when you bend down to them. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if my puppies went to their new homes as biters, worrying what may happen next. I also dont want a bad tempered puppy to come back to me for re-training and re-homing because I was too soft to stop it. You may think I am a monster but I feel I am rearing puppies to be kind family members who will accept early on that they are not the boss of all situations :-)

<<<You may think I am a monster but I feel I am rearing puppies to be kind family members who will accept early on that they are not the boss of all situations>>>

"Oh gosh, do I 'eck"!!! (did I really give that impression? :( )....more like, I know where to come should I ever want a 'little white westie' :)

Hi again JaquiN- got your name right this time!! Sorry, getting me knicks in a twist again, it's so refreshing to have "conversations" with differing opinions - and to stay civil!!

<<<got your name right this time!!>>>

LOL...almost! There's a 'c' in there somewhere!! ;)

Jacqui...(who's also guilty of twisted knix at times but hopes she's always civil) :D

Hi there - I can completly understand where you are going with this one! My Dobe lad is 19 months old and used to mouth. I am no expert but can say that the best thing that has worked for us has always to 'yelp' if he nipped, give a cross look and walk away from him. He hated it!!! We have also used it when he has been playing too rough with the kids(getting too carried away and not realizing how big his bum is or how far it is from his head! :0) )If he has been playing and bringing toys back and changes his mind and runs of instead and refuses to 'leave' he gets the same look and we walk away. It really drives him mad that we refuse to play with him until he does as he is asked. I thinks Dobes are Velcro dogs who love your company more than anything so to deprive him of that, even for a few minites, is awful for them. It works as a great training tool! Also by weird (spooky) coincendence, I was just checking out the 'Kerioak' website before coming to this board (We are looking for a second Dobe to add to our family). Perhaps I will now bump into her too!! Best wishes with your pup
From Sharon & Salem

Hi,

I can tell you what not to try,that is when he jumps up at you and nips (hard),is grab him by the collar and put him on all fours and say NO!!.Iwas told to try this with my 6 month old ridgeback,by the end of the fourth day he had got a lot worse,he thought it was a game,a rough game at that,just what ridgebacks love i found out after reading a couple of books.
All i do now when he starts is show him the chocke or check chain,and i get a look off him as if to say "you win".From doing it every day it is now every 3-4 days which is a giant step in the right direction.

P.s I don't hit him with the check chain.

Johnno, The original poster was looking for help in March!!!!!! But what do you do with the check chain that has made your dog scared of it, the mind boggles! Ja:)kie

Ditto Jackie
Chains/collars are for enjoyable activities. My dogs get happy when they see me pulling them out. Hubby's hunting dogs used to go nuts with joy. So associating them with 'trouble' is rather disturbing imo.

Yes I use checks on two of mine in the show ring and they go nuts if they hear them never mind see them. I really don't want to even think what might have happened to this dog to make it scared. Ja:)kie