For those of you who line-breed, how close will you mate the relative dogs?  I've been researching like crazy to find out all I can, but I think this is a great place to get great answers, as most here are so experienced in breeding.  I ask because I am having a discusion with someone about breeding their dog's future offspring to my bitch to begin a good line.  What it comes down to is probably mating half-siblings once to find the faults/strengths in the line.  From all I read, many breeders do this, but I have to say it seems too close to me.  So my suggestion has been to rather mate a future 1/2 grandaughter to the grandfather, which I *think* would be better.  If I am wrong, please tell me so!  I am only going on what I have researched so far, and this is many years in the future, so all I am trying to do right now is learn all I can about line-breeding before even considering this undertaking.  Thanks!  :)

Unless I am mistaken there is no such a thing as a half grandfather.

You have a grandfather or your don't.  It is different when using sister/brother terminology. Someon please correct me if I am wrong.

Anyway different breeds have slightly different breeding patterns I beleive and I would say it is always best to talk to the bitches breeder, who, if breeding correctly should be able to give you the best advice about future breeding.

To answer your question though, it is not uncommon for grandfather to granddaughter matings. Some like it close some don't.    Line breeding closely should not be undertaken lightly. Any unknown or not visible faults to a novice can be doubled up in a close mating.

Pam

mating half-siblings once to find the faults/strengths in the line
I would never do a mating 'to find the faults/strengths in the line' - I would expect to know!!  That's what experience in the breed is all about, and it takes years of study to learn.  When you do find the faults, and many will not come out until the puppies mature, what are you going to do about it when the puppies that you have produced have been sold to their new owners?  Producing puppies is not like making a cake - if you get it wrong you chuck it in the bin.  The mistakes made are part of a new family who have the worry and veterinary expense for many years to come.
That is why I would always recommend that anyone remotely interested in breeding should by the best bitch they can from a kennel consistantly producing quality dogs, whether that is in the show/working/obedience world.  Take at least a couple of years to be involved and learn in your chosen field, under the guidance of your bitch's experienced breeder.  Then and only then, IMO, should an owner consider mating their bitch to a stud dog suggested by their bitch's breeder.

Hi i have PMd you with a addy of someone who can help you!

I personally like to move the lnebred ancestor into different generations.  I have liked mating a bitch to her Dams half brother (so half uncle to half neice), so the offspring have the same dog as grandsire and great grandsire.  Have done half brother to half sister, but gained nothing by it that I wouldn't have got the first time around (in the bitch who had the same sire as the dog I used, but I was better pleased with using the same dog on her daughter).  I would do this if I had a near perfect example whose sire I admired, and found a male with that sire who complemented the bitch.

It really is more about seeing if the dog and bitch have complimenting traits, and then see if the ancestors that are the saem had the t4raits you most wanted to retain or emphasise, not the fact that they have those common ancestors.  If you are trying to fix a trait that both potential partners possess, then you are more likely to get this trait in the pups if they have a common ancestor strong in that trait.

I tend to look at the % of blood of the common ancestor when breeding.  Taking a particular bitch, if it was her Father I admired more than her mother, I would be looking to breed her daughters back to a son of his.  My half uncle to neice gioves me 37.5% of that dog in the offspring, it is a way of getting back closer to an admired dog, as obviously with each generation in outcrossed breeding you get the blood you admire halved.

In my case I admired a particular male, and kept a daughter.  due to inexperience (first litter) in hindsight I kept the worng pu.  She was in some ways not as god as her Mum, but had some of her admired Dads traits.  When I bred from her and kept a nice bitch (who went on to win a RCC) but felt I had lost some of her Grandfathers desired traits, I looked for a Son of Grandad (the dog I admired) who had the traits I admired.  This gave me my Champion bitch.  Trouble of course is that now I had very little choice of male for her, as all the ones I liked also had this male in their pedigree, so I felt I should outcross to a dog with traits I wanted to improve on.  I am hoping to mate this puppy back to something that has her Mums Grandire/Great Grandsire in the pedigree when I breed from her, so not to loose the traits I liked from him, but having hopefully brought in new complimentary traits from the outcross blood.

Of course it may work, or may not.  when you bring in new blood you don't really know what yo7u have for a couple of generations, where with the familiar blood you know what you have good and bad.

Think I read in one of the dog papers that 3 of the top 4 producing studs/dams last year were from sibling parents.Obviously done in the right hands it can prove very successful...but as pointed out you need to know the faults in the prospective parents and in the dogs behind them.
Archer

The Ozmilion Kennel being a case in point here.   A very strong line breeding  system producing consistenlty excellent dogs.  However, this is from years and years of experience.  But you do have to have quality animals to begin with - just becasuse you have a  mediocre bitch with a 'famous' grandfather, mating to, say, another "OK"  grandson of this dog may fix the excellent qualitity carried by the grandsire, but you have to be careful that the 2 dogs you choose dont have any common faults, becasue the liklehood is that you will just reproduce this fault.  And research, research, research for any hereditary helth conditions, before considering line breeding.   And as someone else said, look at what the dogs have produced too, when you see a lovley dog is it him you need to use, or is it his Father?  We have had a lot of success with half brother/half sister and grandfather/grandaughter matings.  Also with our 1 inbreeding event (Father Daughter -it was an accidental mating) the subsequent generations have been excellent, but it was very hard to find dogs to mate the girl to we kept from this litter - we needed to move away from the original line anmd have a very small Uk gene pool in parti colours.

I think one of the most important things to bear in mind with line breeding is that you have to be totally honest with yourself about the good and bad qualities of your own bitch,  you have to be hyper-critical, and the same with prospective stud dogs.  Look at as many relatives as you can see, and discuss, discuss, discuss with your breeder.
bye
Gwen

Oh my goodness, am I ticked off!  I replied a nice long response to everyone, and the darn board went down for a few moments and lost it all!  I don't have the time to put it all out again, so I will simply say thank you to all who replied.  This is the kind of input I was looking for, and I am thankful.  All I really wanted to add is that we haven't found any faults in the breeding yet...time will tell as the pups grow to adults.  We're looking to more elaborate on the greatness of what we've seen so far.  As I said before, I know nothing of this type of breeding, that is why I am asking years in advance before I even consider doing this.  I think that is the first step in ANY kind of breeding....educating yourself!  :)

Wow "havent found any faults yet"  dont take this the wrong way, but you are either incrediblly, fantastically lucky, or you need a little help with your evaluations!  Perfect dog not yet been born.  I have 2 fabulous pups here, 11 weeks today.  I am thrilled with them, they are 4th generation my breeding on the dams side and 2nd on the sires, but I can list 3 things I would like different on the dog, and 4 on the bitch.    Not big things, but bits and pieces I certainly need to know and keep an eye on.  Was evaluating a litter with my partner for about the 10th time last week since they were born.  The pups are 4 months, and possibly the best and most important litter he has bred - Dam was Top Gundog (Sporting) in the UK 2 years running, Sire is top producer of the variety in the USA.  Pups are so good have still got the whole litter - so hard to place in order of best, 2nd best etc.  However, we could both find 1 or 2 things to watch in each pup.  You need to be so super critical with your own - what you might forgive or ignore in someones dog  when judging, you need to be fully aware of in your prospective breeding dogs.

Good luck, at least you seem to be going about things in a determined way, looking to learn as much as possible - definetly the right attitude for a breeder - remember, a good breeder never knows it all, always willing and eager to learn more and more! :)
bye
Gwen

See, that was something missed in the REAL post I had that went missing, LOL!  There are one or two minor faults in the looks department I would like to breed out.  I did not mean this was a perfect litter!!  But it sure seems darn close, SO FAR!  I know ALOT could change in the next year as they grow, this is why I know it will take some time before we can determine the faults.  My biggest bother with this litter is the snout.  The head shape is just right...very square...but the snout is too long.  I want to find a stud pup with a promise of the shorter snout that should be with the GR.  The stud we used threw his superior coat and coloring into the litter, but my dame was responsible for the heads.  And while everyone LOVES the heads on these pups, I know it is not 100% Golden standard.  Her snout is a bit long, and the pups all inherited it.  While it is indeed a beautiful face, it isn't exactly what I think the GR face should be...  I like the older (original) style short-faced GRs.

I do hope that I am reading your description wrong.  I see quite a few Golden Retrievesrs to short in mussle compared to rest of head!  The skull and muzzle as in my own breed should be roughly equalll, but I see short muzzles with heavy jowls, ans with this mouth faults seem more prevalent.  A promising young dog was homed with aquaintances because it's mouth went wrong, not surprising when you saw how short the muzzle was.

"Head and Skull
Balanced and well chiselled, skull broad without coarseness; well set on neck, muzzle powerful, wide and deep. Length of foreface approximately equals length from well defined stop to occiput. Nose preferably black. "

In many breeds there is a dangerous tendency to exagerate a desirable trait.  For example a short back is called for , so breeders/hudges get into the mind set of shorter is better, or bigger is better, and that is how breeds have changed from what was originally intended by those who drew up the standard.

Hi, to go back to your original question, I'd go as close as you can get and breed brother & sister IF I had a very good reason for doing so.

Before I'd do it and I'd want to personally know about every single dog in the pedigree for an absolute minimum of 6 generations, and I'd want to know about every single dog that those ancestors have produced personally or at least by report from a reliable source. By 'know about' I mean knowing about their temperaments / longevity, the diseases / problems they have had as well as their conformation, movement etc. I'd abort the plan if I found a single temperament fault or a preponderance of any genetic disease / short life spans in the pedigree study. I would not do it unless both dog and bitch were fully mature and, at the very least, good, sound and typical specimens according to the Breed Standard with no outstanding faults, and the vast majority of the ancestors and their other offspring were ditto especially with regard to bad faults that repeat down the generations.

If all of that was OK, then I'd sit down and make out a list of rules for myself about culling hard if things go badly wrong, selling the whole litter at token prices or if a fault not bad enough to require culling appears and about following up these pups and their progeny extremely closely for the rest of their lives. I'd want knowledgeable and experienced owners for all the pups, who'd understood what I had done and why, and face the fact that I wasn't going to find them growing in trees if it was a big litter.

Then I'd review my 'good reason' and discuss it with experienced people I trust. If the reason still seemed good enough, I'd cross my fingers really tightly and go ahead.

In reality the closest I've ever gone was son / mother. I did and still do believe that I did have a good enough reason. That was quite a few generations back, and so far it has not caused problems and seems to have had at least part of the effect (much more health/longevity than pure conformation) I hoped for. But my fingers are still lightly crossed. :)