Hello all,

I've finally decided that, sadly, Isla, will not be allowed to do Working Trials any more-she broke a shoulder about 4 years ago and I'm worried that if she landed badly from the scale (6foot) it could really hurt her.  But she wants/has to work at something and I'm wondering about competitive obedience.  She is very well trained already, but I know that I'll have to work hard to improve her heelwork position, in WT, its a lot free-er and stuff like that.
My question is this, has anyone out there ever gone from WT to Comp. ob? and if so, can they recommend any good books about HOW to do the exercises. I've got Wendy Beasleys beginners guide, but it doesn't show you how to do it, just what the exercises are.

Also, are competitions normally indoor?  Isla has always trained outdoors, about from doing building searches, and I'm not sure if it will make a difference. I've watched quite a few shows that were outside and everyone seems pretty friendly, I guess I'll have to give it a go and find out.
Cheers Ali :)

Hi there, the exercises in obedience are no different from WT with regard to heelwork, retrieve, sendaway, sit and down, and recall.  The only extra things you need to learn are distance control, stand stay, positions on the move, A recall and scent.

The heelwork however as you rightly say needs to be much tighter.  There have been one or two dual champions and there are currently one or two competitors working C in obedience and nearly qualified for ticket in WT.

Brian McGovern's book is very good. 

You would probably benefit from going to some obedience shows and watching Ch C class and then having a few sessions with a very good and successful trainer; if not 1:1 then a "day".  Both Suzanne Jaffa and Ann Bussey compete and train in both disciplines; they are based in Wiltshire.  Ann is a member of the APBC and has just won a ticket in WT and Suzanne is competing with her ASD at Crufts after winning a ticket in obedience last year.

Competitions are outdoor.

HTH

Watching a few videos might help. Sylvia Bishop, Mary Ray and I found the Motivation vid. was very good.
Good luck.

Jenni Watson & Mary Ray both have videos & I think books as well

Karina Griffiths competed with her dogs in both WT & Obedience to ticket level(making up dual champions more than once)

Try this link & join the E mail groups on this site they don't bite but can get carried away at times :D

Pat Watson's got a video, think it was from about 10 years ago - think one of them is "from puppy to novice", it's got her 2 pups on there, all the training etc - both of them are obedience champs now. Very good video.

Ali - where abouts do you live?

Char

Hi guys- thanks for the replies.

Char, I live in sunny Hertfordshire-capital of the world!

Ali :)

Any idea where I can get a copy of Pat Watsons video.??

I think you are very wise to re-think the future of competing with your dog; i am nearly at the 6ft stage with my dog, and having seen a video of her in slow motion, it is actually  quite frightening to see the stress on the bones/joints/muscles. So a dog with a damaged shoulder would be under that much more.
I actually really wish "those in charge" would re-think the scale jump - it does really put me off and i am already wondering if i want to take my dog all the way in trials due to this :( although she is very athletic and has a good (light) weight to height ratio.

YOu dont hear of it often, but there are ex- competitors whose dogs have been severely damaged as a result of the scale jump. I find it very worrying indeed :(

I understand scales jumps in, for example, the RAF are much more dog friendly as they have a platform to jump on when the dog lands, and even in Schutzhund, the jump is in fact more like a glorified A frame.

I wish you lots of luck in competitive obedience. If i  still feel uncomfortable about the A frame this time next year, i will probably be thinking along the same lines....!!!

Lindsay

Hello everyone- Just thought that I'd give you an update.

I've joined the Obedience Uk forum, lots of lovely information there:).  I think that I'll try to find a special 'training day/weekend' with someone who's competed at both, and they will (hopefully) give me some pointers.  I'll be going to Crufts this year (as if I'd EVER miss it!), and I'm definitely going to watch the obedience and buy loads of book to read.  Thanks a million for your advice chaps :)

Lindsay- Please, please don't be put off trialling by my story.  It really is a fabulous dogsport and I would hate to think that I have put anyone off- its true that the scale looks scary, but as long as your dog has been correctly trained on it using the right technique, you shouldn't have a problem. The only reason that I'm stopping, is that in order to keep up her fitness, Isla would have to do quite a lot of 'scaling' and the added impact COULD make her more prone to arthritis in that joint earlier than it would normally appear.  This could happen on the 6 foot scale or practising over a 4 foot one- the height really isn't the issue. Good luck in your training whatever you decide to do  :)

Many thanks again everyone-keep the suggestions coming in-the more the merrier :)
Ali :)

Hi Ali

Thanks for the reassurance over the scale jump: unfortunately i have been worried about it for a while due to talking to several people who have known people who have had dogs crippled by it! :( I know it doesn't happen often, but it does worry me because if i hurt my dog i would be in pieces and never forgive myself. I know when trained correctly, the dog should be safe, but i still worry.......!!!

I do love trials and it's great to have found such an outdoor sport, the people are usually very friendly and it's great to see the dogs using their natural talents too :)

I have just found a book in my shelf I forgot i had although it is  a recent (ish) buy - "Competitive Obedience: a step by step guide" by Paddy Coughlan. Fairly basic but may be suitable? Also i like "Clicker Training for Obedience" by Morgan Spector, he goes into footwork etc and really explains how to train and break down the exercises, i find it a very helpful book but it is American so the Obedience is different. Guess most of it still applies, though :)

Lindsay

I have never met anyone in 13 years of trialling that has had a dog severely damaged as a result of a scale jump.  In fact more injuries are generally caused by the long jump than the scale.  However Lindsay if you feel uncomfortable with the scale perhaps you should not do it as your tension will be communicated to the dog and it will become as worried as you about doing it.  If the scale really was so dangerous I doubt you would see so many dogs competing well into their 10th year eg the winner of the 2003 TD stake at the KCs will be 10 soon!

I think it is pretty rare, to be fair, but there is one guy in Yorkshire whose dog was hurt badly due to the scale jump. Since enquiring, i have heard about one or two others....i agree it isn't common at all, but like all athletes in all sports, accidents can happen and  i suppose that is what is at the back of my mind :)

It's nice to hear though, that you have never met anyone who has had a dog damaged severely, i do find that reassuring Allyson :) I agree the long jump is probably going to have more affect on the dog in some ways as there is probably even more strain on thefront assembly. I guess i am lucky because my dog really enjoys the scale so far and is very agile, so i perhaps have a safety advantage over those with heavier dogs. So far i am not worried when actually doingit - it is more when i think about it afterwards! /And when i saw the video playback! I agree though, once i start to worry about it to the extent of it affecting my girl, i will be out of there :(

I've just realised i have PMd you and coincidentally mentioned the winner of the 2003 TD stake <g>. His dog is on glucosamine and chondroitin though. Not sure if that is preventative or meant to ease an ongoing problem, but if it is the latter, why compete and risk further damage? If my dog was on that combination, she would not be jumping .....

Lindsay :)

I think having dogs on any sort of medication is a personal choice; there are many horses competing who are on Bute and lots of agility dogs on metacam.  At the risk of putting my head above the parapet yet again :D I personally believe that supplements like chondroitin and glucosamine are perfectly acceptable as they improve the quality of life and, as a person with severe rotator cuff injury etc, I find them helpful myself.

FWIW I do not believe in the prolonged use of actual pain killers as pain is nature's way of saying "oi, stop doing this"; when that is not there to remind you to be carefu,l further injury can be caused.  We, as humans, have a choice in what we take and how much we choose to extend ourselves in the pursuit of our own personal goals; animals do not.  We often have to "force" rest on horses and dogs because instinct sometimes dulls pain with the consequence that after the run, chase, hunt etc the animal is worse than before.  I stopped competing with my first dog in trial the first time he struggled on the scale at 7, he did not owe me a thing and his companionship was worth more than any amount of "awards" etc.

Just my personal view.

I agree with much of what you say :) and i well remember in my old horsey mags the big discussions about Bute etc. I too believe supplements are totally acceptable if they improve quality of life, as long as they don't disguise any further degeneration and cause the dog (or horse, etc) to end up in a worse state because the owner has seen such an improvement  they have felt tempted to compete more than was wise  :)

Was your first trial dog a Weimaraner? :)

Lindsay

Yes my first WT dog was a Weimi :D

Thought so! ;) :D

Lindsay

Have PM'd you.

Dont worry the summer shows are outside, only the odd winter one we get are in doors! try to find a good ob club near you, if you go along to a show to watch i WOULDNT (contray to the statement above) watch too much of the ticket class!!!!-it might scare you off!!! instead watch the pre-beg, beg & novices classes & you will get some idea of the standard youll need to begin!
most people there will be happy to chat & help you out!!!!
there is a really good new book out by Roy Goutte, called "get it right!", i think its really good & easy to follow!
have you been on the ob uk site? loads of info on there & a guide for what to expect!

adding on to that apart from ANn & suzanne, there are hanlers such as Marney wells & her lovely staffy & Pauline pearce & her collies who do both.

I said years ago that the scale should have something like straw bales on the landing side. Let's face it, the skill and strength is it the going up. The coming back down is easy, any fool of a dog is capable of dropping down and with something to break the fall the risks would be eliminated.

Best wishes, John

i agree John, but i think that would be difficult in practice due to the fact that the dog does the scale jump, waits, and then returns....however there's nothing to stop a helper moving the bales to the other side on return :)

Lindsay

Such a shame that Marney will never be able to progress further than UDex with her staffies because of their size. :(

trilby is a cracking bitch, & should go as far as marney wants in obedience!her attention is fantastic.