Just thought i'd let everybody who has been so much help to me over the last couple of months know that cleos puppies didn't make it, though cleo did and is healthy. In the end there was only 2 pups and both were malformed. Don't know what caused this, probably recessive genes in both dogs, but thats natures way. It has been a very stressful and heartbreaking night, and now i am left with a dog who doesn't know whats going on. The births themselves were very hard for her as the pups were very big, one 340g, and she almost went as well. Now she is really upset, searching for her pups everywhere. If anyone wants to know the costs of breeding - here it is. Thanks again everybody, its horrible that it had to turn out like this but sometimes thats just natures way.

So desperately sorry to hear your sad news. Don't know what to suggest - give her lots of love that's all I can think of - and take her to the vet, maybe there is something he can give her to stop the milk. Not much help, I know, but someone will post something really useful here soon!
Again I'm so sorry, you must be feeling really down

Sharon

Terribly sad news. Although I didn't write on the thread, I followed every posting, it was like actually being there!! As you say, its natures way, but its hard to take at times isn't it. Give your dog a big hug from me.

Oh I'm so sorry. What a terrible result, life really is a b***h sometimes. Thank God Cleo is Ok though, it would have been truely awful to lose her as well.

I've not got any suggestions on how to help Cleo through this, I've never had a bitch in this situation but I have got some advice for you.

Have a good cry and a large drink. Don't feel guilty about this - it wasn't your fault. You may have made the decision to breed from her but it wasn't your fault how it turned out.

Cleo will get over it, and she will forget - it'll be a lot harder for you than it will be for her.

Lots of love and hugs

Fiona and family

Thats so sad,I'm glad your Bitch is ok.

So sad for your little girl.
A breeders nightmare.
Just lavish her and time will heal this awful outcome.
Big hug for you it must have been so distressing.

I'm so glad Cleo is OK - such a shame about the pups. Only time will heal now.

hugs for Cleo

Pam n the boys

Hi,
just like to offer my condolences. My bitch is about to give birth, one of the other members is right, you are living through every breeders worst nightmare.

I hope you girl pulls through ok.

Ian

So very sorry to hear your sad news...
Cleo must be so confused right now,bless her.
Thinking of you all...Kay

How very sad indeed. I am so glad Cleo is OK I'm sure you will find she will forget very much quicker than you, however have you considered asking your vet if they are any pups needing a foster mum locally?

So sorry to hear this. I haven't had this happen to me(knock on wood).
But Isabelles suggestion seems a good one. Also I heard that sometimes it helps to give the dog a puppy size stuffed animal to help them emotionally with their loss. This is the worst side of breeding, just thank God you didn't also lose the mom. Everything will get better, hang in there, we will all be thinking of you and wishing you the best.

So sorry to hear about the puppies but thank goodness your girl is OK.

Lisa

Have been following your postings on Cleo.
So sorry this has happened.
Jaq and the Elf

So sorry to hear of your loss--glad your bitch came through it--when I had a bitch to "dry up" we used a breast pump and then massaged her breasts with camphorated oil--it worked well. I'm sure your vet may have ideas as well--there may be something dietary to help too.
mj

I was so sad to hear about your bad times, but so glad that mum is going to be fine. One of the other posters was right, give your girl a soft toy or two in her bed to cuddle up to.She will get over it and be fine, it will be harder for you though. Wishing you both all the very best and lots of love xxx

I've been following your postings about Cleo and have logged on for the last few days hoping there was finally going to be some news, this wasn't the news I was hoping to read:( A very sad time.

I am so sorry. all my love to both of you. Kath.

I can only echo everyone elses thoughts .A very sad outcome.Gillian

Dear Alex & Cleo

So sorry to hear of your sad news :(

Keep your chins up.

Lots of love

Derryn

Hi, so very sorry to read your sad news. You must be devastated and the mum so confused and worried. A homeopathic remedy: Ignatia, may help her ( and you) with the grief, you could get in touch with www.ainsworths.com - phone no on the site - for free advice about the remedy/dose to give, they may be able to help with milk suppression too. I know when I had to stop breast feeding my baby quickly because of an infection, the doctor gave me tablets to dry me up, and they worked quite quickly, so pehaps the vet can prescribe something for her too. I would halve her normal food for a week or so and give as little protein as possible, to inhibit milk production, but I would get your vets advice about that too. Hope you both recover quickly. Best wishes.

hi
Once again sorry to hear about the pups glad mums ok.

Thanks for the advice westie lover, she been on ignatia since yesterday morning and seems much better. She has had a teddy that she takes everywhere since thurs night, and we decided to take her down to the country on fri morning to get her out of the house, plus my mum wanted to see her! This morning she went outside for about 10 mins without fretting, and is currently in bed with my boyfriend - which is a miracle as she hasn't left the kitchen sofa since we got here, and no cuddly toy with her either. She is on antibiotics, and i have to poltice her teats a few times a day with salted hot water, which she seems to enjoy.
So there is light at the end of the tunnel, cleo will be fine, i am not so sad any more, and time heals all. Not overly looking forward to going home though!
I know it seems starnge to bring this up already, but my instinct is to not try and breed from her again, for both of us - but i have been advised to do so on her next season, for her own health. Is this right? I am loath to breed when the likelyhood is that at least a few of the pups will not be right, even if i outcross completely, and if this happened again i'm sure it would have a morew lasting effect. I now want to buy in (though from a different line), as my reason for breeding from cleo was to keep a pup and start to show, etc. I would go back and get the same line, but the recessive gene may be there also, and that wouls just be horrible. I would not be getting a pup until at least june, to give cleo lots of time and attention to get better - do you tihnk she would take to a pup after all this?
Anyway, I know its all a bit long winded, and rambly, and lots of questions, but i find it somewhat easier to think of whats to come rather than whats happened! As always any and all advice would be greatly appreciated

Personally I wouldnt breed from her next season as this has been quite a traumatic time for her (and you) But I wouldnt necessarily exclude breeding from her again but would only do so under the advice of a vet to make sure her insides will cope. Unless you know otherwise there is no reason to assume that any further litters will have pups in that will have probelms. A toughie I know.

I have spoken alreadt to a very knowledgable SBT breeder and she says the most likely reason is recessive genes in both bitch and stud dog. she advised me to breed again for the sake of the bitch, but to completely outcross (no relatives the same). However, she did say that even if i do this there is a 50-50% chance that the same thing would happen again, or that if a full litter was produced that up to half could be incompletely formed. Personally, i don't think that i could bare to see what i saw again, and i would hate to put her through losing another litter. However, if it will be for her benefit i shall do so, but i am happiuer to buy in and start again, as i was breeding from cleo to keep a pup to show, and continue the line - she was to be spade after this litter anyway. Bit confused by the whole thing, but think i would be a nervous wreck if i was ever to breed from her again, the waiting was bad enough this time round!

The malformed pups could also have been an environmental influence during the sensitive 3 1/2 to 5 week stage in pregnancy. there are many things that can cause birth defects. Remember Falidimide!

I would just mate her to a dog from a different line to the other stud just to be extra careful.

Sometimes things just go wrong, like some women having miscarriage after miscarriage, and then producing health children. Spina Bifida is linked to a lack of Folic Acid for instance, and just because you have one affected child does not mean another will result, but the supplements do help. We are still a long way of understanding the full mysteeries of reproduction. I would ask your bitches breeder, and owners of other relatives of her close family if they have ever had malformed pups, this will probably also help with your decision!

I have already spoken to her breeder and was told that only happened in 1 other of the line, cleos mother litter sister, who then went on to produce a healthy litter a few years later. I know that genetics are not predicatable and that it may never happen again, but with dogs it is their human owners who decide whether they should try for another litter, not the dog themselves (ie people get to choose if they want to run the risk of miscarriage), and i don't know whether I can make that decision for her, even though i know that dogs are instinctual and do not have human emotions, etc.
Quite confused about the whole thing really, what i want to know is would other breeders out there breed from her agin with a 50-50 cahnge of the same thing happening again, or would they spay her and start again with another dog as she was quite happy in her role of pet before?

Whilst some breeders would be happy with those odds others may not be. The only person who can say whether you should breed from her again is you. If you really arent happy then dont because if something did go wrong again you would beat yourself up over it.
Rather than making this decision now why not wait a year and see how she recovers and how you feel about it then. She isnt an old dog so you arent in a hurry so just take your time and give her an extra hug from me :D

I had a litter of persian cats once, 3 kittens in the litter. The first 2 were fat and healthy, and the third was bigger than the others and horribly deformed but breathing. It was awful. I don't know for sure what caused the deformity, but I have a feeling it was that I had used frontline flea product at the beginning of her pregnancy(didn't know she was pregnant). It is very scary seeing babies like that and you can't do a thing to help them. I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to try again with her. Glad that you are both pulling through.

Cleo has made massive improvements over the last few days, and has been positively herself, happy(ish) and enthusiastic. Her milk has nearly gone, and though she is looking too thin, she is otherwise healthy.
However, we returned home after 5 days in the country and now she has regressed massively. I know that this is not surprising but it is so sad, she has gone back to staring and whining, and gathering her teddies, though she has not had one with her for the last 2 days. She is still on the Ignatia that is doing wonders, but she is so sad agin, and it breks my heart to watch her, she was doing so well. Maybe i should move!
Apart from all this i know that she is recovering well, and will soon be back to her old self once and for all, though maybe a bit more settled - which basically means she will never get out of her bed! However, i have made a firm decision not to breed from her again, and she will be spayed as soon as she is 100% better and back in shape. I can't think that she'll mind becoming merely a pet, even more spoilt in the end!
This means that i shall be buying in so that i can start to show, and maybe think about breeding in the future, sometime, maybe... So there is still some joy around, we shall be getting a new pup (though not for a few months) and it is such a scary thought having to pick from someone elses line, especially as i hope to show, and because it will be a boy (too difficult to keep another female at the mo) I am not concerned about cleo taking to a new pup, i think she will spoil it rotten, she has always tried to mother the cat, though she is having none of it, speaking of which i think the cat might go on strike having a little boisterous boy around the house!!!
Anyway, just thought i'd give an update on the situation. Cleo is on the mend andd will forget in time, meanwhile she's being given lots and lots of attention, though we are going to start our obedience training again, she's thinking about taking liberties as she know i won't scold her as she gets all sad!!!! Cheeky little thing.
Thank you so much to everybody who has given me advice, and all your condolences helped no end, allowing me to grieve, so thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I have to say, I think you've made the right decision not breeding from Cleo again.

Good luck in your search for a new puppy and I hope Cleo continues to recover.

Fiona

Hi, it's worth giving ainsworths another quick ring - sometimes you can keep them on a homeopathoic remedy too long and the symptoms come back again, when they had previously gone. If you give a remedy for anything - and continue it when the situation has gone back to normal - the remedy can bring on the symptoms again in a "healthy" animal. So glad it helped her, but it may be time to stop it now, Sorry I should have said to stop giving it when she improved - I thought ainsworths would have told you that! Just out of interest and nosiness did you take it too - and did it help you? I am sure you have made the right desicion about buying another puppy in, it is such a disappointment when your first attempt at breeding your own show stock goes wrong, but at least Cleo will be ok and you have found out now, rather than a few generations down the line that she may have had probs in her line. It will stand you in good stead for he future as you know to avoid the dogs in her own pedigree. Trouble is you will probably never know which pair of dogs was responsible, if it was a recessive gene, but you are well armed for the future. very best of luck.

Westie lover, she has been off Ignatia for a day or so, though was so stressed when came back home that i started her on it again. She is a bit better than this afternoon, though still refusing food, and looking for all her teddies that i have been a meanie and had to hide. Since the whelping i have discovered (from breeders usually stum) that there are faults with her line quite a way back, but exacibated (really can't spell!) by the fact that i line bred, even though her mother and grandmother had been put to the same dog without any problems. Oh well, i know more now, older and wiser as they say, and have been doingquite a lot of research recently and have found a nice line, no line or inbreeding for 4 gens, so we just wait and see now. Thanks again

Cleo,

I haven't really been on the board much recently, but I have been wondering how your brave girl is?

Hope you and she are getting over your loss and all the stress as well as can be expected,

Linda

Cleo is very much better now, though there are still sad times she doesn't reaaly pay that much attention to her pup substitute and have stopped whining for no reason. Out in the park she is completely back to her old self, and seems releaved to be able to run around and do as she wants without this big belly getting i the way!! Her milk has gone completely and she has got her shape back though her under-carriage is still rather swingy - i have heard swimming helps this but cleo is rather precious about water and will only go paddling! Anyone have any ideas about how to get it back as i want her 100% back in shape before i have her spade in about 6-8 weeks. She has started to eat properly again which is something of a relief, and no longer demands to be fed in her bed. Overall there been an amazing amount of improvement. Same goes for me really, though i still think of the whole thing and feel sick, never want to see a horror movie again! I have sad times to, but am so happy that cleo is back to her old self that they pass quickly. I'd love to be able to post piccies of her, but i don't know how, and the other board just confuses me!!! If any one would like to see the little girl (cleo not me!!) they have been helping they can e-mail me, as i do know how to attach pics to e-mail! Thanks so much for your help and concern once again!

So sorry to hear your news :(

Cleo is probably greiving for her puppies. To help her through this I suggest that you give her some Ignatia tablets.

Hugs
Pauline

Sorry :(

I've just read through this thread and would like to wish you all the best.

What a sad time you and Cleo have had

Theresa

Im so sorry to hear about the pups,and i am glad that cleos doing better now. I know how scarey it can be when things go wrong but i can't begin to imagine what you and cleo are going through.give cleo a big hug from me.

Lowri.

im so sorry to read this---i do however think that you're right in not breeding from her again,-i cant see how anyone could say it was for the good of the bitch!!---wouldnt it be better to bring your pup in a touch sooner than later, while shes still a touch broody, --shed more than likely take to it as if her own, anyway sorry to hear youve both had such a bad deal of it, take care, diz!

Hi Dizzy, Lowri and all of you who have posted recently,
Thankfully this episode is pretty much out of mind now - and all happened back in the beginning of march. Since then cleo has got back to her wonderfull self, though now more ball obbssessed than ever, and was spayed. We also already have the new edition - got him about 6 weeks ago and after an initial period of abject terror cleo now thinks of him as her own, and even allows him a suckle attempt before biting his ears! I wanted to wait so that she could settle back down again - and so that she could be spayed and get over the operation, which all went fine... So basically i figure everything happens for a reason, and though i'll not be rushing into breeding again for a wee bit - i've still got my Cleo, and a lovely little boy from superb lines for the future - which was all i wanted anyway!
If you want to have a look at them, check out the dog photo site - i'm on the last page as i was the first to put piccies on!!!

x Alex