God, how confusing is email as a way of communicating?  Almost as confusing as how some of us try to communicate with our dogs.  However as we are supposed to be the intelligent species, I think we owe it to our dogs to try and see things from their point of view and not just expect them to understand what we want and punish them if they don't.  So I will try once more with Josh...

Although I pasted the whole of that paragraph I was refering mainly to the FIRST sentence "I think it's worth QUESTIONING........."  which then gives a different perspective to the bit about pulling on the lead.

Anyway, as I said,  if it worked for you, fine.  If you thought your dog was 'dominant', fine.  For the benefit of others, some of us felt the need to dispel the myths about dominance - again - and speak out against using physical punishment and force as a way to teach dogs.  I know it works sometimes, I am not arguing about that.  I am just saying that I don't do it, I don't need to, I don't want to,  I get much better results by using only positive teaching methods and I will continue to persuade as many people as I possibly can to stop punishing and checking their dogs.  :D:
Sally

Hear Hear Sally :D

Too true Sally

I actually train walking to heel off lead in my one to one & with my own dogs. It's a lot harder than using a lead & you actually  have to work with your dogs. But the up side is that you build communication with your dog & so when you go to walking on lead it is so much easier

JMHO of course but isn't communicating & relating to your dog part & parcel of owning a dog

"physical punishment and force as a way to teach dogs."........ its obvious that I've see a check collar used differently to you then!!!! :D

The collar was only introduced AFTER the dog knows the command 100% but IGNORES it. Then you still encourage the dog, and still make it loads of fun.

I'm interested in the advice you'll hopefully give to the 14 month old Rotty, titled "not listening to me" because thats the sort of situation I was show to use the check method.  PLEASE please pleae dont think im questioning your ability, its just I'd like to know an alternative.
Josh

How do you know that the dog KNOWS the command?  How do you know it is ignoring you and just not understanding you?  On what criteria is this based?

A dog can be obedient in the house and garden and not outside because you have not generalised the training and taught it to ignore distractions! 

As for using the check collar, a dog can only pull if it has something to pull against; if you are not using a collar and lead then it cannot pull ergo no pulling problem :D

They do not use check collars on Whales and Dolphins to get them to jump, flip and somersault!

Because I never train on lead I've never had a dog who pulls My dogs do know what I expect as they are trained to listen to me & concentrate on me. When we go into the real world it is much easier to get their attention back on me than having to use a choker my dogs wear normal collars at all times except when in the show ring

"How do you know that the dog KNOWS the command? "   say sit........if the dog sits, it knows!!!!  Obviously the dog doesn't know first time, so you use treats/toys to encourage to teach. The next stage is to perform the sit on the first time of asking and in different situations/distractions.
" How do you know it is ignoring you and just not understanding you?  On what criteria is this based"..... read the new thread titled not listening to me

"As for using the check collar, a dog can only pull if it has something to pull against; if you are not using a collar and lead then it cannot pull ergo no pulling problem"...... but even when the dog has a lead on, it should be loose.
THE DOG SHOULD NEVER FEEL ITS ON A LEAD.  just as Sophie knew to stay a distance away from me in the recall, the dog is harder to train when it comes to off lead work if it know you only have control because of the lead.

The lead should be long enough for the dog to take a few step ahead of you with a loose lead.  if the dog take even a step to far, Encourage him back with treats/toy/voice control.  SOME people find that at a later stage, when the dog does a perfect heel ordinarily but is ignoring the comand, then a check method MIGHT.

"They do not use check collars on Whales and Dolphins to get them to jump, flip and somersault!"..... its obvious youve got that straight out of a clicker training book, probably from the introductions first page.  Im not knocking clicker training, and the author is trying to sell him/her self as an expert, which is fine.  But we as owner must understand that there are different method, some which work better than others, and some which work a certain dog, but not another, but certainly clicker is one of the better methods. Having said that in a few year, unoubtably there will be something better, and clicker will be laughed at.  So lets not make out clicker is the ultimate tool.

Ive just read yet another alternative training method on the "not listening" post!!!! proves me point.there are SOOOOOOOOO MANY!!!!

so please lets end this "debate".what do u say???? :D