Hi

I've wrote about this in another topic, but was suggested to make a new topic.

So here goes...........

My friend, Kamille, has a GDS bitch puppy 8 months old now. She is not very obedient outside. She pulls and she doesn't always come on recall.

Yesterdays example: I was walking with Bella (the GSD) and Luna (my own choc lab bithc 10 months) of lead. We were going to pick up my friends daughter in kindergarden. Bella and Luna saw another dog - on lead - I called, Bella ran to the other dog, I got Luna to lay still. Bella only wants to play, but she can be really scary, running towards people.

We have a lot of turkish immigrants, and most of them are scared of dogs.

Do any of you have any advise to help me and my friend teach Bella recall. And most of all, teach her to walk nice on a lead. She is not foodmotivated unfortunately! Have tried that! And its like she just closes her hearing of. You cant get in contact with her.

HELP my arms are soon the lenght of gorilla arms

Jeanette

Hi, i have a gsd bitch 13 weeks.
we go to dog training classes which really help in basic obedience training,if your dog is'nt as you say food motivated why not try taking a favourite toy to use as a reward.
with the pulling try a half choke collar and a short lead.
in the past i have used with older gsd's a very long extendable lead and kept them on it untill i felt sure that they would come on recall before i ventured to let them off.
When you are out walking, everytime the dog pulls you stop.Start walking again and stop each time the dog pulls, they get used to the fact that if they pull then they get no further and introduce the toy as a reward every time nice walking happens.
I hope you have luck, maybe you could consider training classes it is also a great way to socialize dogs with people and other dogs.

These collars are more often called 'Half Check collars'  or in USA they refer to them as 'Martingale collars'

Here are two sites where you can see them:
http://www.accoladeleathercraft.com/
http://www.hi-pet.com/Shop/system/index.htmlType in Military Cotton Webbing in the search, and the collar at the top is one in webbing.  I use that collar for my puppies, as being cotton it doesn't damage the coat until I can get a round leather one when her neck has grown.

Hi

Bella has a half check collar it doesn't work!

But thanks anyway. I think the other one is very like a half check collar, isn't it?

jeanette

I puzzled in what way doesn't the half check work ?

I would suggest lots of training at home BEFORE letting any dog off lead in public places. Training classes work in two ways, one you are shown how to train your dogs & your dog gets used to being near other dogs without being able to play, I do not allow dogs to play together in the lessons as this leads the dog to wanting to play with any dog it sees whether or not the other dog is willing. They go away from the training area to play & socialize, i had a horrible experience with one of my cavaliers who was pounced on at 12 weeks by an adult Airedale in play, my boy was winded & knocked unconcious for a few seconds. He now cannot stand Airedales.

Also heelwork & walking on lead are not the saem but good heelwoork trained well leads to correct walking on lead

Hi

When I say that the half check doesn't work, I mean Bella still pulls.

Bella doesn't go to training! I go to training with my own dog, Luna, and she is doing fine!

Bella is not my dog, but I "babysit" her a lot, and the owner does not have internet, so I'm writing and asking. Probablely Bellas pulling is bathering me more than the owner, but that is because I walk longer walks with the dog, than the owner does. And because I don't trust Bella completely she is more on a leash on my walks, than when the owner walks her.

Jeanette

Hi

Well I do go to training every sunday with my own dog, Luna. But Kamille hasn't gone with Bella. Kamille is a single mother to a girl on 4 years, who had her gymclasses at the same time, she could have gone to training unfortunately.
And we are not allowed to train with two dogs at the same time, so I can't bring Bella.

I've tried some things, that I have learned to training, but we use treats as reward, and since Bella doesn't react to food, I'm lost. I've tried with a tug rope, all that happens is, that Bella is jumping up after the rope, again no contact at all.

Kamille is herself a former dogtrainer, she stopped just before she gave birth to her daughter, so she should know better.

I've tried using a choke collar (without spikes!) and that works some what, but that is not a thing, that I want to continue with. She pulls no matter how long we walk. I walked out to my mother about a month ago. It takes about 30 minutes each way, and we also spend about 15 minutes playing on a field before we started the walk. She pulled al the way out to my mother and all the way home again. She does not stop, and whats worse, its starting to rub of on my own dog! I thought GSD were supposed to be pretty clever dogs, but Bella can make me think different.

I've thought about a harness, but Kamille will not have that.

Well I'll give it a try with a favourite toy, I think she has a rope with a ball, she fancies.

I know it sounds like its always me, who's walking Bella, it isn't but we are together everyday, and well perhaps I am the one walking her the most hmm!!!
Thanks

Jeanette

Hello

I symaphise entireley I have a male GSd who is now nearly 10 months and he does exactly the same thing.  I have tried the stopping the turning round the walking in circles and walking to rightangles none worked he thought this was great fun and started to pull even more.  My solution that is slowly starting to pay off was to get him a halti and a heavy chain lead.  He then knows he has to  walk by my side, after about a week of using both on him I noticed an improvement so for the last few days I have been alternating between halti + heavy chain or just heavy chain.  I have now found he is nearly as good walking with just heavy chain as he is with halti + heavy chain I have decide to persevere with this method until he learns to walk properly with just a light lead.

With the recall I have bought him a long lunge line attached to a body harness so basically he has it trailing behind him so he thinks I have control of him I do not hold on to it though; and gradually his recall has improved this way, going for a  lighter lunge every so often, hopefully by the time he is out of his kevin stage he will be a near perfect dog. (:D)
Best of luck
Jane

HI

Its nice to know, that we are not alone!

I'll suggest the halti, but I don't think Kamille will go for it, but then I could use it, when I walk Bella.

Then it would help my arm!

Thanks for the advice.

Jeanette

Hi Jane, I currently have the same system with my girlie!  She is very good in every other way and we can go on lovely long walks and her recalls are fine, however, we are going on puppy walks every Saturday which are quite manic as you can imagine :rolleyes: - Well Lana really loves to chase (she's an afghan), and at 6 months old has decided that her mum is nowhere near as much fun as chasing her mate (Jake the border terrier) - So she has a long line on these walks and if she ignores me I reel her in - If only she would come first time she would realise I'd let her straight off again as reward :rolleyes: - The puppy walks can be very large so I go to the edge of the group and practice recalls by going to the end of the line and asking her to come, despite the obvious distractions!  We are making very small steps - but making them nonetheless! 
Sarah

I would suggest a long trailing line so that you can just stand on it to prevent another of these episodes.  Teaching a reliable recall takes anything from 1 week to 2 years.  Every time an untrained dog is called when it is running off in another direction add another week!!  ;)
I have always found it better to start teaching the recall when there are no (or as few as possible) distractions in a BIG open space, with the dog on a long trailing line, keep changing direction and keep the dog behind you.  Then when they are reliably turning to follow, you can introduce your command and reward the dog for getting it right.  The next stage would be to call the dog when they were thinking of coming anyway and so on and so on. So for the time being it would be a waste of time and indeed detrimental to the training process to call a dog when they are leggin' it into the horizon.  The other thing to bear in mind is that the dog must want to be with you.  I ensure that this is the case with my dogs by being the supplier of everything wonderful.  So, balls are only ever played with on walks and any of my dogs that doesn't have a reliable recall will earn ALL of their food outside for coming to me until they do. 

Sally

Hi

I'll bring this on to the owner, because, how much I want to do this, it's not my dog, and I have got enough work to do with my own Luna, who has reached the kevin stage I think.

Thank you very much for the tips. I hope she'll use them (for the sake of my arm:-))

Jeanette

Hi Jeanette
I have an 8 month old BC who used to pull like crazy until we got her a 'stop pull harness', I really couldn't believe the difference in her when I tried it and I've never looked back!!!

HTH

Jo

Hi Jeanette,

I would try the long line myself- always worked with my labs. Has your friend thought of clicker training or using training discs, or something like that.?

Good luck- hope the arms get better!
Ali :)

p.s Am i correct in thinking that at 7 mnths the GSD pup was out walking for 1 hour and 15ish minutes-seems a bit of a long time to me for a pup this age, although I might be wrong as GSDs aren't my breed.

Hi Ali

Well yes there was a day, where she walked for about an hour, but normally she only gets walks on 30 minutes, with stops on the way.

They play a lot on a big field just behind our appartments.

I think she is getting to little walks. She plays a lot,  but is seldom taken on proper walks.

Kamille (the owmner)'s boyfriend is having a long slipline on Bella, when he is out with her, because Bella doesn't obey him at all.

Well I'm considering the halt, but it shouldn't be my decision, really.

I think I'll try keeping her on a very long leash, I think I have som rope, 15 metres, maybe give that a try!

Its hard to be standing there and only suggest things. Had it been my dog, I would have taken her to training (which I am doing with my own girl :-))

Jeanette

Jeanette, youre a saint! :D I wouldnt have enough hands/eyes/patience to walk 2 teenage dogs, especially if 1 pulled. Hope Kamille appreciates you. :)

Hi

Thanks :-)

I hope she does too! But I doo feel a little misused sometimes. I'll have to learn to say no! I need to train a bit with Luna, my own dog, because Bellas pulling rubs off, unfortunately!

Jeanette

Hi Jo

I would suggest the harness, but I know Kamille, the owner, has told me, she doesn-t want to use a harness.

But perhaps she'll change her mind.

Jeanette

A word of encouragement to those suffering from pulling - it does get better but it can be slow. The method that worked for us was when he walks in front - stop dead and wait, say nothing, keep enough tension on the lead to stop any forward motion and stand still until dog backs up into the right position. Praise and move straight off. If youre going anywhere allow 4 times as much time for your journey. Be relentless for at least 2 weeks until the penny drops. Once the dog immediately backs into place when stopped, go to turning into the dog to block his/her path whenever s/he tries to pull or walk in front. Danger points are turning corners, crossing roads or narrowing paths, so get there first. Ive been working on this for 10 months, and still need to lay down the rules in  the first 5 minutes of every walk or when its windy ( today!). It takes time and patience in spades and if somebody else walks my dog and lets him pull, hes at it with me next time ( very annoying).

Hi

I have tried the stopping and waiting, but probablely not long enough, because its difficult, when you have two dogs. But maybe I should give it a go again, and keep it up for 2-3 weeks.

Thanks.

Jeanette

Well, can you walk them one at a time for a couple of weeks to give you a break/start? Perseverance is key and if Kamille lets Bella pull, it undoes your hard work. You could tell her she has to fix the pulling or you cant walk Bella ( if only I was that assertive myself!)

Hi

Well maybe I could, but as I live on the third floor, it would mean a whole lot more running up and down the stairs. And I wouldn't trust Bella to be alone in my home! But maybe I could have Luna of leash and train with Bella on leash.

Yes I know I should give Kamille an ultimatum, but I just can't get myself to do it!

Jeanette

Hi Jeanette,
Bella sound EXACTLY like my Sophie, who's now nearly two and a half years old.  I've read the other posts at a quick glance so I appologise if I say write something thats someone else has already suggested. Its just that I read your title and thought that I may find different solutions to the same types of problems I faced with Sophie.

PULLING - we being owners of dominating breeds, apart from the technical aspects of training a dog to heel, must also take into account that the dog may be trying to dominate/protect us when in new surroundings, or when the dog feels a little defensive/wary of its surroundings, even if the surroundings are well known to them.  Bella is still young so I'm guessing she's still too young for the protective instinct, but shes definately at the stage when she'll be very wary of everything around her and trying her luck with the "leader of the pack" theory. Getting out front, meeting and greeting new smells, people and dogs/other animals is just what a good leader would do. If you ever see an owner with two dogs, you can figure out which dog is the "boss".  Maybe that could be a thing if you both walk your dogs together? NEVER allow the dog to pull as then it becomes not only a habit, but the dog thinks its the right thing to do. Also half check/ckeck collars aren't used in this way. The dog should walk as if there is no lead, and when s/he gets past the imaginery line you dont want him/her to cross when in heel, give "check".  Its hard to explain but its worth doing a little reading on how to actually use these tools.  ALSO  I've been told GSD's have larger/quicker strides than labs and smaller dogs so its very hard for them to walk as slow as humans, especially a young excitable GSD.  Everyone knows how good labs are as blind dogs, GSD's are just as good, but apparently are let down because they walk too fast for short/medium height people. I used to go running with Sophie.  I say used to cos I'd be running in a sweat, and she'd be happily walking away!!!! And I'm supposed to be in good shape!!! It was so embarrasing hahaha lol :)

RECALL - the long line theory works great, but dont rely solely on "checking" the dog to get her back to you.  I've learnt this the hard way because Sophie has figured out that if she goes more than the length of the line, then I cant grab the line to "check" her and get her back, and until recently would run off and stay at a distance so she could be "free" to do as she pleased.  Always use a sweet voice as your tool to encourage the dog to come back, and use the line and half check/check collar as back up.
When teach any command there are three distinctive phases, and not all dog books seem to tell you much about them.
(1) Learning Phase - where you teach/motivate your dog the command by use of treats FOR ONLY THE FIRST FEW TIMES, and then the sound of your voice. Done in your home. Your happy sound of your voice should be incentive.
(2) Correction Phase - when the dog HAS to obey its loving owner. Use a sweet voice to command ONCE ONLY. The dog is given a VERY SMALL check the first time if s/he doesn't do it.  The checks are given on a level from 1 - 10 were 1 is a light check.  If you check at level one, then two, the next time go straight to level two and only three if you have to.  ALWAYS use a sweet voice, even when checking, because you need to teach the dog not only what s/he is doing wrong, but what s/he has to do right. This is done in the house/garden
(3) Distraction Phase, when the dog is obeying you 100% of the time when in the peacefulness of your own home/garden, start introducing distractions, where the dog MUST obey, at ALL times in ANY conditions.  In Bellas case, this phase would be to do the a recall, once 100% reliable, infront of other dogs.

I must stress at this point that I'm NOT a dog trainer, and a lot of the people here probably have more experience with dogs than I do, but I can simpathise with you and your friend and after trying so many different methods with Sophie, if I were to have her again I would use these methods, having said that all dogs are different.
My regards to you and a hug for your dogs
Josh
X

Sorry to burst your bubble Josh but a dog is not trying to dominate/protect when it's pulling on the lead. It just wants to get where it is going!!

And the 'MUST obey' theory is flawed as you have discovered when your dog stayed at a distance from you.  Far better to teach a dog to WANT to be with you.  Works for me anyway.  I haven't 'checked' a dog for about 20 years now and I deeply regret that I did this to my past dogs.

Sally

Hi Sally

No bubble to burst.  I wasnt at all suggesting that a dog pulls to dominate, but rather the other way round, where a dominant dog trying to take control of a walk (MAYBE in this instance), and trying to lead the "pack" results in pulling. This is something that was an issue with Sophie, which once recognised by a proffesional trainer got sorted straight away. It may be an issue here, it may not, but I thought since no-one else has given this important information, which gave us so much of a headache, I'd bring it up.

The Must obey theory isnt flawed but there are many right and wrong ways to do this.  Are you saying that a dog should only obey when s/he wants to??? This seems strange to me.  I totally agree with you and the other poster, that the dog should WANT to be with you, and by their very nature they want to please you.  But for guarding breeds its surely in their nature too to guard.  So what happens when a GSD/Rottie or other feels the need to protect?? Do they go with their own instinct or do they take instruction from the owner??? If you read my post again, I have suggested to always use a sweet voice as the main way to communicate otherwise, as you rightly said, you have problems which I came across.

I would like to say again  that I'm not a dog trainer but these are just a few things which helped me on my way.  It may work in this case, it may not.  Thats up to the discretion of the poster.

Regards
Josh

Dogs should ALWAYS take instruction from their owner otherwise they are a liability!

thank you, and just cos you hold a bit of sausage out, and call him/her in a nice voice not always stops the dogs natural instinct.

But that is the whole point of dog training, to shape and, if necessary curb, natural instincts for our own benefit.  A great deal of extremely badly behaved dogs are "excused" by their owners because "it is their instinct"!

"But that is the whole point of dog training, to shape and, if necessary curb, natural instincts for our own benefit" nicely said....and we're just dicussing different method.

I think it to boils down to two approaches

1 - Positive - treats, encouragement, sound of the clicker (anything the encourages the desirable)
2 - Negative - shout of "NO", or "OUCH" when a pup starts chewin' on ya' leg!, "check", squirt from water pistol (anything that discourages)

And there are two ways to impliment these

1 - encourage the desired and FORGET and undesirable ........ positive only
2 - encourage the desired and TEACHING what isn't desirable....... 95% positive 5% negative only if necessary.(this aint a scentific calculation, just a guess)

The thing with training I think is that the worse thing you can do in positive is forget to give a treat,or click the clicker at the wrong time etc, but negative training which goes bad, can become very dangerous and sad. You need to know 100% what your doing, why your doing it, and what you want to happen the next time, and so people tend to either do it wrong (LIKE ME), or just stay away from it.

 

Hi Josh

I'll give the suggestions on to the owner. And I do also agree in the issue about the dog should want to be with me. And I would say, that since I started writing this, Bella has gotten better on recall. Also because I praise her a lot, when she comes to me, so that she will come again, when I call!.

But the pulling is driving me nuts. If the "check" you talk about, is what I think it is, then thats what I do, and I do have a little succes, but not enough. But I'll keep on going.

Jeanette

"And I do also agree in the issue about the dog should want to be with me."...... and the owners too!!!! :)

" Also because I praise her a lot, when she comes to me, so that she will come again, when I call"...... praise/motivation is the ONLY way to teach a dog, where thats by the sound of your voice or the sound of a clicker, whatever. Sally is dead right, the dog should WANT to do it.

The best thing I've ever read is .....you must be the bestest, most fun thing in the world to the dog.  This way the dog will always want to be around you,.... cos your the hip happening one!!! lol and its more fun to play with you then to smell other dogs s**t!!!

Ive tried so many things with Sophie with her heel and NOTHING worked.from treats to clickers. Her pulling decreasssed with time, but she was so annoying because she'd always walk with her hind legs next to mine (if you can picture that !!! lol) but i wanted her head along side my left hip. Youve got loads of advice and Sally's web-site but if you cant sort it, let me know and i'll tell you how i did it.

Regards
Josh

Sally
sorry, forgot to add that the method that you suggest in on your web, is like the ones you find the general training books, and was great when Sophie was small, and was "open to suggetions" on what to do.  The problems came when she was determined to do what she wanted ie go after a smell, or up to a child to make friends, and wouldn't take any notice of anything else, including treats.  I couldnt possible just stand on the line waiting for her to finish, so I had to introduce a "check" method so as to Communicate with her what I did AND didn't want.

I went wrong because I didn't praise enough when she was coming towards me after the "COME" call, and her ignoring me, then the "check".  I just assumed that since she was coming back to me, that she understood what she was supposed to do and I didnt need any more encouragment.

Hi Josh,

>>so I had to introduce a "check" method so as to Communicate with her what I did AND didn't want.

Sorry but having to use a check shows a lack of communication.  Like I said before I don't check my dogs and I don't 'make them' I 'make them want to'.  Neither do I compete for leadership with them.  My relationship with my dogs is based on cooperation not competition.   Anyway most of my dogs have suffered from negative training with their previous owners and it didn't work.  I have no doubt that what you do works for you and I respect that and have no desire to argue with you.

Sally

Sally
I think the type of training  relies solely on the dogs temperament.  I agree that 90% of the time, pure positive would work with a pup or well mannered dog, but refuse to believe that ALL dogs, can be trained ONLY by positive training, especially if you have an adolesant GSD.

I agree with everything else that your saying, and have never said anything different.
Josh

Well lets agree to disagree then because I have 12 dogs all trained with only positive and I teach from pups to dogs with aggression problems and everything inbetween with only positive. 

Sally

"Well lets agree to disagree"

:) sweet

ONe of the immutable laws of working with animals, the more you "check" the harder they "pull".  Not sure what is a "dominating breed"?  Getting out front, meeting and greeting new smells, dogs, people etc is just what ANY healthy, happy, well adjusted curious dog will do; it has diddly squat to do with leadership.  I am sure you would never have been able to guess which of the two pairs of dogs I had was "the boss" from observing them being walked together.  :D

The best tool for dog management is not equipment but training with positive reinforcement rather than relying on "checks" :D

" Getting out front, meeting and greeting new smells, dogs, people etc is just what ANY healthy, happy, well adjusted curious dog will do" ........100% agree

"The best tool for dog management is not equipment but training with positive reinforcement rather than relying on "checks"", ........ I never said RELY on the"check" , and even clicker training needs equipment...such as a clicker!

"it has diddly squat to do with leadership" .........not in Sophie's case.

"I am sure you would never have been able to guess which of the two pairs of dogs I had was "the boss" from observing them being walked together" ........no, cos I'm sure your dogs view you as the boss.

I would never ever use these levels of correction you refer to, Josh, on any dog, ever. It can seriously damage the dog's oesophagus, neck, spine, and even nerves located in the foreleg and eyes.

Some US sites refer to this, and some dog training videos, people in this countru have got into trouble for using the sort of "training" this person in the books and videos advises. The phases of training discussed are an opinion only, based on a dog learning through fear and punishment.

Refer to www.dog-dominance.co.uk for a different view. It's a good site.

Lindsay

Thanks Lindsay. It is a good site.

"I would never ever use these levels of correction you refer to, Josh, on any dog, ever. It can seriously damage the dog's oesophagus, neck, spine, and even nerves located in the foreleg and eyes". ............... why are you assuming that even if i was to give a "level 10 correction" that i would be damaging the neck.  My "level 5" may be your "level 2" or someone elses "level 10"!!!!  All I'd say to clear my point up, is that each dog is an individual and its the owners responsibility to know his/her own dog(s).  IF you were to use the "check" method then you should know your own dogs correction level and always make it fun with lots of positive praise etc.  Some owners only need to change the tone of their voice, or give a stare, others use check collars.

If you need to nearly kill your dog to make it do as its told, theres something vitally wrong, and the problem lies deeper then a simple heel excercise gone wrong!!! I think we're missing a vital point, there's a difference between positive and negative training, and a difference between negative and neglect. 

I was having a chat with my cousin who's got two kids and we were discussing how similar its has become to raise dogs as compared to kids.  Both have to be confident, well behaved, be socialised properly etc etc and he tells me he sends them to a school where they never tell the kids NO, or what to do for that matter.  The kids do what they want because apparently if you force a kid to do work for example when s/he wants to play then its bad for their confidence or something like that. There are other trains of thought too

"You never tell a kids he's naughty, because how would you like it you everyone kept calling you naughty?? thats from a woman I work with.

But in America they're making schools tougher "because kids need to learn rules because they're going to have to live by the law for the rest of their lives."

These sorts of methods seem to come and go in phases, and just as popular clicker training is now, there will be another fad and trendy way to train your dog in a few years.  I think the simplest way is to respect, understand, have patients and love your dog, and you'll get all those things back 10 fold.

Josh

Lindsay.sorry forgot to mention

From the web-site.......

"A dog that pulls on the lead is attempting to take charge of the walk, just as a dominant wolf will decide where the pack will go. OK, so a dog walking to the park is pulling on the lead, as it's so excited at the prospect of having a good run. On the way home, when it's tired, it's walking on a loose lead. Should we then deduce that the dog is being dominant on the way to the park and subservient on the way home? Common sense says not".

Exactly what happened to Sophie, she'd pull there, and then be ok on the way back, but because the poster said that the dog pulls there AND back, so I'm guessing EVEN WHEN ITS TIRED, and because of the nature of GSD's I said it COULD be a possibility.

Josh

Hi Everyone

Thanks for all your advice. I'll try and put them into use! And if it doesn't work I'll be back!

Jeanette

The dog isnt being dominant Josh - did you read any of that website i suggested? :)

It just wants to get to the park! Just like a little kid pulls on mummy's arm - a 5 year old child. Guess the kid is dominant, too, eh?

Lindsay

Josh,

Like many people you seem to mix up positive and negative - there is positive and negative punishment, and positive and negative reinforcement, plus extinction - all part of operant conditioning :)

<<You know your dog's correction level..."

Um yes i do - she is not corrected at all in the way you mean, even though she is not at all an easy dog.In fact she is the most difficult dog i have ever had. I'm training her for working trials - all without physical punishment. It can be done! ;)

As for clicker training being a fad - no, it's not. I shall always use a clicker, because i have never had such good results. Lots of people now use  them. Mary Ray, who won Crufts Obedience, uses them. I'm not saying everyone should use them, but i am saying that people should have an open mind.

One of the people you are debating with has a Weimaraner trained to TDex level in working trials; another has been training aggressive dogs for years. They know what they are talking about.

I've had enough of this thread, I'm here these days to give advice, not debate my understanding of training....I'll just say this though: I used to use check chains and used to use them quite hard......but don't use them any more. Partly for ethical reasons, but partly because i get better results without them.

And that's my final word.

LIndsay

"I'm here these days to give advice, not debate my understanding of training".......
This thread is not about your experience, your dogs, Sally's 20 years, Mary Ray, or Tdex trials, .... its about someone with a problem with their dog.  Many people offered different advice, lets not start compairing who's advice is best..... and leave it to the author.

Josh

"The dog isnt being dominant Josh"...... how do u know. ..... I'm not saying, it is or isn't, I just know I was in the same situation, with the same breed, Sophie was... thats all. If the author thinks its relavant, then try it, if not then dont :)
Josh

"so I'm guessing "

Yes Josh, I am afraid you are :D

????

well, ofcourse, i dont know the ultimate soultion, its up to the author to read all the advice, and use what she what she thinks would work for the dog.  There can be many solutions to a specific problem, I am just offering what worked for me.

This is the paragraph you forgot to read Josh ;)

I think it's worth questioning some of the pack rules we have been told over the years about how to bring up a dog to prevent it from becoming dominant. Bear in mind though that the rules are based on how wolves behave and not how our domestic dogs behave.

"Bear in mind though that the rules are based on how wolves behave and not how our domestic dogs behave"......... I didnt forget to read the paragraph, and yes agree, but even domestic dogs have different characters from breed to breed as you'd well know.
If the author would have written that the dog in question was any other breed other than GSD, I wouldn't have written a thing.  I just wrote what worked for my dog, maybe its relavant, maybe its not..... I'l leave that to the author of the thread..... but if your saying that in your expert opinion that the what worked for Sophie 110% definately wouldn't work, then that is something for the author to take into account.

Josh