We have had so many labs in rescue this year that are not kc reg but this dog lovers reg I want to know why people keep buying the ones registered in this useless scheme.
If you were buying a car you wouldnt buy any other than properly mot 'd car would you? if it said car for sale Car lovers reg certificate you would say no fear yet they buy these puppies in the DL scheme.
Each Dog lovers certificate carries a note at the bottom which reads.:
The issue of this certificate does not guarantee its accuracy as it is based on details supplied to The dog lovers registration Club Uk by the applicant/breeder.....
So? not worth the paper its written on then :(
Heres an example of a lab in our care:
Breed Labrador
Colour Chcolate
Sire Mister Munch
Dam:
Crispy Crumpet
Now I ask you what do you think?
AND!!! company number 2843140 certificate number DL40048 that must mean thats how many puppies are registered in this scheme nice work if you can get it.
I have edited a correction....cerificate should have said company. as Ive been emailed by DA Winters from Dog Lovers Registration Club

at least with a KC reg you can research back in pedigrees and hopefully your dog will have a good record of lineage though of course this is open to fraud..

Think of all the dogs which would not have been bred from now are because they can supply these dratted certificate and people think they mean something.Im convinced the average person never reads a document else why else would they fall for it and pay a lot of money for the privaledge the dog lovers puppy farmed pups are just as expensive as KC reg pups. Think about it.

judging from the many that ask on here AFTER buying a puppy and getting the dog lovers certificate---a lot of people musnt realise--to be fair i expect that when they check that the dogs are registered, and assured they are, they probably think theyre ok------- it should be made illegal, as its just a form of trickery, :(

well said dizzy and you and I and other breeders who research and try to strive to produce dogs of excellent breed type,temerament etc get a how much? I can get a cheaper pup elsewhere are but to what cost ? its makes me sad there are hundreds of these dog lovers reg dogs in rescue they are so babdly bred they dont even look like what they should and temeperaments are iffy.But people are paying a high price for them.
By the way the dog lovers scheme was introduced by the owner of the big dog supermarket in manchester :( :(

Mattie, you put on another post that you have recued an ex nutshaw pup? I'm currently getting some evidence to hand over to interested parties on these kennels. Any info thatyou have would be grreatly appreciated. The more tales the better!!!!

can you send me your email address then I can talk to you about this we have had three dogs in this weekend all twelve months old and all DL REG

its Ex Nutshaw pups rather than DLR i'm interested in. MY addy is wendykearney@hotmail.com

I beleive that if the Kc were to have something like a dog registration for all dogs including mongral's then alot of this schemes wouldnt be able to go ahead and that it would also cut the numbers for breeding.
Jenny.

Jenny I love mongrels but lets be sensible here how would you trace the lineage !
A pedigree is not snob value it is a genuine paper to trace the lines of your dog because to strive to produce good stock be it pigs cows sheep is in the ancestors its to assure or try to assure quality in the breeding ie: temerament,desease free etc...
In labs we have many hereditary deseases (wish I could spell) there are three eye deaseases (help me out her John) and Hip dysplacia,OCD etcc
So what would a bit of paper say about a mongrel nothing only it would be guaranteed to live a heck of a lot longer than a pedigree you dont need a bit of paper in that case but this scheme is promoting bad breeding and its making millions for the owner. and dogs are suffering for it

I own a lab.
I think you may have taken my post out of its context, what i mean is that if there was some way that all mongrals, and peds, that are'nt registered, were to have some kind of registration process id, that was required and that each certificate was distriputed with legal conditions (ie) that these dogs can only be kept as pure pet or working dogs, that cant be bred from,
and this was made public knowledge it would put alot of people out of business (ie) puppy farms unregistered breeders, ect.
unfortunetly i can never see this happening its just me slipping off into my perfect world dreams again. lol.
Jenny.

There is no way you can record details of dogs where you know nothing about who the sire is. Also, the KC's aim has always been to further the cause of pedigree dogs. Because in the old days it was never even considered that a mongrel would ever be deliberately be mated the whole cause was never a problem. Designer dogs were not around then. By the same token, no hereditary health schemes apply because no one ever thought these dogs would ever be mated.

If you really want to register a mongrel then you can, on the working register. You would then be free to take part in the health schemes.

Regards, John

I think the answer is that so many people don't know. It seems a bit strange though that with the poor communications of the 1950's we knew all about KC registration but in these enlightened times so many now seem not to!!!

As for the registration numbers, do we actually know if they started from zero? My guess is that they would start from a random high number to make it look like a long established registration scheme. In other words, yet another fiddle!

John

I saw an 2 yr old elkhound advertised for sale in our local freeads/loot last year and phoned up to advise the lady of the breed rescue.I asked her of the bitches breeding(since most elkie breeders want their puppies returned if they can no longer be kept) and she said she was KC reg and would get the papers.She then told me the sire and dam who seem to be the parents of most of the pups coming from the manchester puppy supermarket.I then said ' shes not KC registered then ' and the owner was totally shocked and didn't understand the difference between KC and DLR !!!
I'm not saying they're telling people that the pups are KC registered but from what I've seen they don't put themselves out to explain the registration they use..to put it mildly.
Archer

*Hence* why if there was some sort of kc official dog register (not for peds and not to do with bloodlines) those kind of occurances would be far less, than at present, but like i said if only life was perfect.
Jenny.

The problem there is that these people are buying puppies they believe to be pedigrees with relevant documentation.They want a pup with 'pedigree' papers not just a registration of ..how to put it....existance.
The other problem with it is that the 'breeders' want to register the pups as pedigree and hence charge more money.A registation from the KC for a non pedigree dog would not allow them to charge pedigee prices.We need to remember aswell that the KC would not register the amount of litters these poor bitches are forced to produce in their sad lives
Archer

This is true. The DRL is frequently used to circumvent the KC's breeding restrictions. There very restrictions which were put in place to stop puppy farmers over breeding their bitches.

Regards, John

But if im not correct the numbers of non pedigree dogs keeps on riseing.
If all dogs were on a register and had an id number, life would be harder for those out to scam and make a quick buck, however to make this truely work, i think everyone that owns a dog should have to have a dog license. this should be a legal requirement punishble by the law.
and the licenses sould only be issued when an id certification is produced (a bit like road tax for instance)
A huge task but one that would have a great impact thats for sure,
and if the goverments can spend millions on things such as congestion charges surely this would be another way for them to make money off people but for a much better reason, im sure you will all agree, lol.
Jenny.

Trouble is Jenny those of us who care would be in there with the health tests, the pedigrees, the micro chips ready if not willing to pay up and look brave. Where as those who wish to breed say an Irish Staff with a Gt Dane would carry on doing so and breed as many as possible hoping they will get away with it and lets face it most would. There are thousands of people who do not tax and insure their cars do you really think they would bother with their dogs, no they would make as much as possible from the dogs and if caught get rid - till the next time.

There were thousands who never brought a dog licence the last time we had one and that was only 37.5p if my memory serves me correct!

Regards, John

I had a talk to some one that i saw out in the town with a choc lab pup to tell them there was a training club so why not come along asked where he got pup from( pet shop) why' just saw it in window with litter mates walked in paid for it took it home his friend got one as well, this pet shop is full of pups, in the Bedford area.

Thinking it through, Jenny, what would you do with the people (and their dogs) who don't bother with the ID/registration? With untaxed cars (where they reckon 10% of people driving on the motorway have no insurance) the cars can be seized and destroyed - surely you're not suggesting that should be done with the dogs? But if not - what would make people bother to get it done?

New Zealand (I think it was!) has just introduced a compulsory microchipping scheme and it is the responsibility of the breeder to ensure that their pups are microchipped before being sold after a certain date (2006). It will soon become obvious which breeders aren't complying and I suppose the relevant action will be taken.

Jesse

But what is the 'relevant action', Jesse? Don't misunderstand me, I think it's a great idea, but how on earth will it be policed/enforced? And if a law can't (or won't be) be enforced, there's no point in having it. Basic rule of politics.

Well if they did re require a dog license that could only be issued, by an id number i beleive, this would be a better system. the only way for it to happen correctly,would be for new laws to be passed.
As you have already pointed out, there are always going to be good and bad in every situation and, when you say that there are thousands of untaxed cars,(good point) but there are far more, that have the correct documention than those without?
If a person/s , was found to have a dog without a license, then they could bring in such laws as , fineing if not had it registered, for those found to not have a license, that are breeding purposely, a hefty fine baned from keeping any dogs for set amount of years and possibly even prison time.
then the dogs should be taken checked and if healthy and all is well registered given an id number and put up for rehoming to someone that can prove they have a dog license.
in short if the law was harder on these people and they spent more time effort and money on these situations they would be far less of a problem than they have, currently.
Im gonna stop dreaming now though lol.
Jenny.

Hi everyone, Compulsory dog registration keeps being brought up by the various animal organisations from time to time. Should bear in mind that it has never been put forward as a means of verifying a dogs history/pedigree, simply as a means of identfying ownership. We should also remember that the KC is just a private organisation. compulsory reg. wold be a government thing (used to buy the licence at the Post Office), possibly the KC might be involved via Pet log. However, the DLRC does just waht it says, provides a registration certificate with the details as given by the breeder. Some unamed authority cant stop it, as it is fulfilling its advertised purpose - restrictive trade practices etc., etc.. And remember, the KC form also says it is solely reliant on the details given by the breeder for accuracy! While the KC reg. can trace back pedigree, it is dependent on the parents details being accurate in the first place! Surely the best way to undermine the bad breeding practices/breeders who are likely to use DLRC would be for the KC and other interested organisations to do a big publicity campaign in places like the Free ads papers, exchange and mart, dog magazines etc? If they could show public that a KC registration was actually some sort of sign of quality, where DLRC was simply a sign of having filled in a form? Unfortunatley, many unethical people also use the KCs registry, and the KC seem unwilling to reduce revenue by clamping down.
bye
Gwen

Round here we have numerous latch key dogs who wonder the streets with no collar or ID tag,most people do not clean up after their dogs and people walk round openly saying their dogs are pittbulls or pitt crosses...if the laws concerning these issues are not enforced what is the point of introducing more.
Archer

Thats my point (time money and effort).
I can never see such a thing happening but if it did what an effect it would have on things such as puppyfarming and re-homeing centres, all anybody wants here is what is best for the dogs.
Jenny.

The KC do have a Companion Dog club/Register.

When I was looking for my lab puppy about six months ago, a family living nearby bought a yellow lab from the local pet shop. Out of curiosity I visited the pet shop and enquired whether the sold black labs, if so, were they kc registered and how much they cost. His first answer was no they only sell golden (?) labs (I guess blacks don’t have the andrex puppy appeal). He then went on to explain that he would never have kc registered pups, dog lover registration was much better. If I wanted to breed with a kc registered dog I would only be able to register if both parents were kc registered, whereas dog lover registration accepted both kc and dog lover parents (didn’t say anything about them accepting any parents!). He did sound convincing and I am sure there are many people out there who would accept it. The next shock was the price. Taking into account the cost of vaccinations it still cost £50 more than I paid for my pup and I paid top price (well above my budget but just fell in love with mum, grandmum and all the pups!) for a pup with drakeshead, swinbrook, palgrave and holgate lines (not entirely sure what that means as I’m only a beginner but are a lot of FTCH amongst them). I have to say I left the shop feel sick and it wasn’t just the smell!
Sadly, all the while there is ignorance and a market for these pups they will keep coming. If it wasn’t dog lovers something else would pop up in its place.
Well done for all your work with rescue. I nearly had a rescue lab but decided to start out with a pup –still hope to offer a home to one when my pup is older.
regards Jenny

<<for a pup with drakeshead, swinbrook, palgrave and holgate lines (not entirely sure what that means as I’m only a beginner but are a lot of FTCH amongst them). >>

I'll tell you what that means Jenny. It means that your puppy has some of the very best working lines in the country behind it and in saying that, it also means some of the very best working lines in the world!! A puppy with brain!

Regards, John

I have been emailed by DLRC UK to say I had been incorrect in my post above so I have corrected the mistake which should have said company number.

Well they should be so particular!!!!!!!!! :(

Well you can tell D A Winters I hope they feel very proud of themselves for having a scheme that so many poorly bred, unhealth checked and over bred bitches and puppies can be registered with them for a fee!

Jesse

Well said, Jesse!

Also for over charged pup's of a breed that people can get for the same price or cheaper from a reputable breeder.

Unfortunately if you are not in dogs, pet people do not have a clue that this is a totally different company than the KC until there comes a time when they question it, usually by then they've had their dogs for a while and fall in love with them so there's nothing that they can do. I wdn't like to say what I think of breeders who do this kind of thing to people!!

Thanks John, I'd heard of Drakeshead but not the others. They come up repeatedly so I thought it must mean something, and you're right, he is bright! I have to say I'm rather intrigued now - I'll have a search on the internet but apart from that are there any records / books where labrador's details are kept.
regards Jenny

The trouble with working gundogs Jenny, is that is such a closed world to everyone outside! The internet is a good source of info but it takes a lot to wade through. A good search engine, Google is always good for dogs, will throw up pedigrees of quite of these dogs. Labrador books usually have pedigrees of dog’s key to the breed (but these tend to be more show than working.) But lists of names are only that, lists of names, and give you no feel for the dogs carrying those names. There are quite a few Field Trials results on the net and poring over these starts to put a little flesh on the bones. The Labrador Retriever Club has a site with FT results of their tests on as do the United Retriever Club. The magazines to read are Shooting Times (Which also has a web site dealing with working gundog results) Sporting Gun, Shooting Gazette (Which has quite a large gundog section)

Of course, there is no substitute for going to watch a field trial of working test. There you would be able to see the dogs actually working and really get a feel for the tremendous abilities of the top working dogs.

Reports on field trials held in the late 1800's/early 1900's are few and far between but ARE available still thanks to scrap books kept by one or two of the very earliest exponents and collated into book form by more recent enthusiasts.

If you want my advice, DONT START! It takes over your life if you are not careful!! ;)

Best wishes, John

Thanks for all the info, John. I can see that it will keep me out of mischief for a while. Started looking on the internet late last night and before I knew it it was stupid o'clock in the morning! oops, I can feel myself on the edge of a slippery slope here!
best wishes, Jenny

My sister was one who was unfortunate to be pulled in by the DLR.  She wanted a staff puppy and they saw an advert for a male staff pup local to them as being registered.  Well they automatically thought that it was KC registered.  When I asked where she got the pedigree papers from she said that the owner of the bitch had it done by someone up the road who does registrations.  My sister paid £190 for this dog.  It was for sale at £250 but because it was 9 weeks old the owner said they could have it for £190.

They had managed to get 16 champions in 6 generations.  They only saw the mum who was of the breed standard but never saw the dad and are hoping that he is of the taller variety as he is now 28 months old and stands at about 20" and looks like a greyhound.  I really felt sorry for her as they never checked with the KC which is what the owner said they should do so the KC could register that pup to my sister.

My sister is very disappointed but loves him all the same. 

JEN
            I got hooked after talking to john about tracing pedigrees back as you say time just goes as you search for little bits you are missing

  Yorker

Jenny,

Many congratulations for picking some of the best working lines ever!. Enjoy your pup :)

Ali :)

Thanks Ali,
I confess it was rather more luck than judgement - but he is fabulous.  Having done a little bit of digging have found that his sire is well known in working circles around here and was hoping to see him in action but sadly he was killed a couple of months ago, shortly after qualifying for  the retriever championships for the second time.  I can quite understand why breeders on here are against people breeding without ensuring enough buyers are interested.  Due to a mix up on the kc listings most of the litter were sold through a newspaper ad to people who (like me) were probably totally unaware of the quality of dog they were getting.  Still, at least I got my pup.
Best wishes, Jenny

well done what do you mean? it wont do any good the certificate isnt worth the paper its written on she cant breed she cant be even sure this is the genuine  breeding  of the dog!!!!!!!!!!
at least with kennel club you are in with a chance that if the breeder is honest the papers are genuine what hope with  this?
last time i posted on this i received emails from dog lovers reg hope they post here because if they are sure what they are  d oing is good then lets have proof i have a very open mind but doubt they will  lots of money to be made and no one knows they buy a dog from the puppy supermarkets and think its a genuine form

sorry my point here is 16 champions how do you know? thsi is a certificate used by mass puppy farmers no proof at all read your certificate it clearly states  the issue of this certificate does not guarantee its accuracy as it is based on details supplied to dog lovers registration club ltd by the applicant/breeder  so what proof
and guess what i had a dog in rescue this week  cost 495 pounds 50 pounds more than my show quality lab pup with all healths schemes used .and he didnt even look like a lab

Mattie, to whose post are you referring to?

It was my sister who bought a reg staff with the registration with 16 champions on it.

I'm a little confused.  I think mentalcat was referring to my pup who is KC registered
regards Jenny

This is why, I actually thought MC was reffering to your sisters dog

By Naomi:
My sister was one who was unfortunate to be pulled in by the DLR.  She wanted a staff puppy and they saw an advert for a male staff pup local to them as being registered.  Well they automatically thought that it was KC registered.  When I asked where she got the pedigree papers from she said that the owner of the bitch had it done by someone up the road who does registrations.  My sister paid £190 for this dog.  It was for sale at £250 but because it was 9 weeks old the owner said they could have it for £190.

They had managed to get 16 champions in 6 generations.  They only saw the mum who was of the breed standard but never saw the dad and are hoping that he is of the taller variety as he is now 28 months old and stands at about 20" and looks like a greyhound.  I really felt sorry for her as they never checked with the KC which is what the owner said they should do so the KC could register that pup to my sister.

My sister is very disappointed but loves him all the same

then directly underneath is :

Mentalcat:
Jenny,

Many congratulations for picking some of the best working lines ever!. Enjoy your pup

Ali

So thought  wrongly it reffered to your post  mis read it.
Sorry didnt mean to upset anyone tried to email you but your address is hidden.

Its just we get so many of the DL Reg dogs here and most of the people who have brought them in think they are KC reg,
They say oh theres the KC documents and I say no these arent ( not that it matters we only file papers anyway)
One family had bought theirs hoping to show then realised  they couldnt.
Its misleading to people the difference should be made clear at point of sale I notice on the back of the certificates its states Please Note: The Dog lover Registration Club UK LTD is not connected or affiliated with any other canine Organisation whatever.

When people buy a dog they then register again in the new owners name at a cost of £8 so its quite an expensive piece of paper
considering it also states  The issue of this certificate does not guarantee its accuracy as iit is based on details supplied to the DLRCL by the applicant/breeder.
I thought a certificate was issued for anything when it was proved to be fact like a certificate to say you have passed your driving test.
What would happen say if we got a certificate saying you had passed your test but it may not guarantee that you have its just details provided by the driver and examiner !
So Ill ask the question what is a certificate then? and if its proof of a fact then these certificates are not worth anything at all.

And could DOG Lovers Reg Ltd perhaps tighten up their registration scheme to only issue a certificate based on actual breeding facts of the dogs to then stop the puppy farmers making thousands from producing pups with papers.
Our Rescue rehomed 190 dogs last year all labradors not all DL a Lot Of KC as well but there should maybe be a portion of registration fees made available to breed rescue.
here is an idea what if people like me send to DL and KC the Documents of dogs we take in would they refund in a donation the money for the registration that would help breed rescue wouldnt it.
Also we must bear in mind The KC at least will not let people register another  litter from a bitch if she has whelped a litter in the twelve months period I know its unbeliveable that someone would want to but DL dont seem to have this in their constitution.
But if they did the breeder could just use  another certificate for the same dog hence two litters in twelve months and then back to back till of no further use which is what happens.
Puppy farmers are a terrible thing I know of more than one who shoots his old bitches once they finish breeding :(

Just done a reccy and out of 15 labs in rescue so far this year 7 are DL 5 no papers so cant check and 3 KC I may ask other rescues to keep a tally and we can compare where the bulk are coming from

I thought maybe that is what happened.  It doesn't take much to confuse me anyway so don't worry.

I hate seeing dogs in rescue homes and the mistreatment of some of them is unbelievable.  I am not a breeder, my dogs are pets and I know that I am going to get a few scolding remarks, but my bitch is expecting a litter (she's 62 days) and neither of my dogs are registered, although my Jas is registered with the Kennel Club Companion Dog Club and we like to keep abreast of what is going on in the world of the KC.   

If I was to get a new dog and wanted it for showing I would go to a known reputable breeder not go searching through the local paper.  If you want a good registered pup then, forgive me if I am wrong, but wouldn't you expect to look at the paperwork first and check with the KC or the supposedly sire/dam owner.  I can't see how people can get confused between KC registering and DL registering but there are and I can't see a way of stopping it.

Hi there
My earlier post referred to a shop I visited in Surrey just down the road (which I will never buy anything in as a matter of principal) as I had met someone who had bought a pup from there and been conned into believing DLRC was as genuine as kc registration.  Curiosity got the better of me so I thought I would see what the pet shop had to say about it, which I mentioned in my post above.  I was only agreeing that I think DLRC is a con and pointing out that unscrupulous dealers/breeders/people that sell dogs are using it to convince an unsuspecting public that they are buying quality.  My own pup did not come from there.  I grew up with dogs all KC registered so when I started looking for my pup I would only consider KC registration.  I would add that that I consider KC registration just the starting point.  I am not naive enough to think it is not infallible, but have no reason to disbelieve my own pups pedigree. 
best wishes, Jenny

Hi JenP, I guess that would be the shop then, the people that contacted me bought a yellow Lab from a shop in Sutton. He died at 5 months, about a week ago, the autopsy proved inconclusive. The young family were understandably distraught, he was their first pup and they didn't know better :(