Buffy went along to her first puppy class last night. There was only 2 other puppies there, a boxer and a maltease terrier.
When we got there the boxer how was 16weeks jumped her and had her pinned screamming in a corner (not hurting her just frightened her a bit i think), my 4 year old started crying and the boxers owner was trying her best to pull it off while the vet was trying to say to leave them too it, i was just stood there thinking 'oh my god, this is just to noisey'.
Anyway after about 5 mins of Buffy trying to hide and the boxer not letting her she relaxed and started chasing the boxer. They played very rough for the hour and i think that Buffy had great fun. The maltease who was also 16 weeks just spent the hour barking he did seem at times like he wanted to play but Buffy and the boxer where just to rough for him.
Cant wait for next week now, i just hope that there is a few more pups there this time.

Debbie

Was this just a socialisation class or a training class debbie ?

oh my god and the vet just let them fight?  I'm surprised he wasn't on hand with the steri strips! I don't think I would have liked that at all.  In my first socialisation class, if any dogs made eye contact and were barking or creating or attempting to fight, then we were told to turn their heads to avoid eyeing up.  Certainly, our trainor would not have just let them fight it out to see who won!  That's a bit concerning.

It was a socialistion class lel.

As for fighting, they weren't. It was all play, i just think that Buffy was prepared for how up front the boxer pup was. The vet watched them closely and would have stopped it if a fight had occured.
The pups didn't even bite each other it was mostly pushing and jumping and lots and lots of running.

Debbie

PS. Buffy also seemed a lot happier today and when we saw dogs walking up the road she was desperate to go and see them where as before she didnt even give them a second look.

Mine does something similar she sort of has a stance really close up to them and side on (weighing it up i guess) then the paw goes over the other dogs shoulder, then the old lady yorkie owner calls me an unfit dog owner, then she threatens me with the police for having a dangerous dog. So i normally walk alone now :( :(

Sarah ;)

At our training class, they warn against these vet puppy classes :( The puppies should be kept on the leads and only introduced gently, not allowed to run amok :( Can do untold harm to nervous pups

Daisy

Never been to a puppy socialisation class, but I feel sorry for the poor little Maltese!
bye
Gwen

Puppy class seems such a long time ago now but our pups in the class were handled on the lead and told to "go say hello nicely"  to other dogs.  We did this for about 10 minutes at the beginning of the lesson then the pups attention was turned to us.  We have to make ourselves more appealing than any other dog in the room after this.  It really worked because my  1 year old dog is fully socialised with other dogs but when I want him to come to me after a play, he will.  Sure he knows his place too when a 4 year old GSD shouts at him in his class and most of the time will come running back to me and sit at the side of me as if to say " yikes! help me mum!" still it's good to know that he won't have a go back.  He is just a big 5 stone wimp really!

Hi Debbie
Just want to add a cautionary note.  The same thing happened to my lab when he was about 10 weeks old.  An older collie x jack russell played very roughly, frightening my pup.  Like you, I was told to let them get on with it and after a while my pup started to respond in kind!  The change in him was obvious the next day when I met another dog out on a walk.  He has just turned nine months and I have had to work incredibly hard with him to stop him turning into a bully with other dogs or developing a fear aggression.  It is still be a problem now, particularly as he has hit his 'kevin' stage.  I would also add that in every other way my lab it the most gentle laid back dog, and am certain that this is a learned behaviour and not his personality.  What I found with my boy was that after it happened he felt he had to 'get in first' and lacked confidence when meeting other dogs. I am no expert (he is my first dog) and there are many on here with a wealth of experience who I am sure will advise you better, but please, please think about allowing a repeat experience.  I would only allow good experiences with other dogs from now on (easier said than done, I know).  I don't want to sound dramatic but not a day has gone by that I haven't regretted stopping it and taking my puppy away from that situation.
best wishes, Jenny

2 puppies together i would think are different, my girl at her 1st rincraft did her stance, pawed the other pup abit,the other pup returned the compliment then mine ran off expecting to be chased and that was it, friends! :)
Older dogs i find are different they are more confident and can be slightly overbearing on pups i would imagine a pup would think "hmm hang on this must be what older dogs do".
:)

Take head of what JenP says - it's often the puppies who are the victims of this sort of behaviour who go on to 'learn' to give as good as they get - it sounds like an AWFUL puppy socialisation experience, I'd get my puppy out of there as she would learn more bad than good :(

I must admit, my trainer doesn't agree with these sort of classes. I have taken both my dogs to these vetrs puppy parties, whereby lots of puppies dash around going mad. The trouble is the more they play the more worked up they become and this can become aggression. At all the parties, several fights broke out, but the worst happened at my second dogs first party. A lakeland/JR terrier got over excited and 'went' for a border collie pup and wouldn't let go. The BC was screaming and pooing itself it was so scared. The terrier kept hold, occaisionally shaking its head,hurting the BC more. In the end the owner was holding the BC and the vet was holding the terrier (still attached!) and had to prise open its jaws. The BC was ok, but very nervous afterwards. Needless to say the vet advised the terrier's owner not to come again, but i think the fact that the pups were just left to it didn't help. My trainer prefers pups to meet on leads and then when they are all ok, prehaps they can run around and play, but only for a short while. I haven't met the BC again, but i do wonder how much psychological damage that initial meeting has done, especially to such a nervy, sensitive breed.

Have been thinking about this thread since I first read it earlier today, and the more I thought the more concerned I have become.  I am certainly not a trainer (in fact most of my dogs are a bit spoilt and rather naughty) but I have reared and socialilsed numerous litters of pups, and trained on a whole lot of them for the show ring.  If any of my pups play becomes as rough as this (and I am talking about pups with own litter mates) I step in and calm it down.  It seems to be giving completely the wrong signals about meeting strange dogs, and what is acceptable in different situations.  My pups are well balanced and well socialised when they go to their new homes, but I would not like to say any would come through this sort of process  mentally unscathed.  It sounds like a recipe to teach panic agression.  And I still feel heartilfy sorry for the poor, terrorised little toy present during the uproar!  Have you asked the vet why he considers this sort of 'meeting' useful, and what the pups are learning?  Would be interested to know.
bye
Gwen

Hi Gwen
The reason the vet holds these classes is because he says that puppies are often very good with dogs but not so good with other pups, also when they become adults if they have never encounted a pup before they will not know how to react.
I didnt feel that what happened was a problem, If Buffy had continued to be upset then i would have stepped in but i decided to leave it a few minutes to see what happened and as it was she calmed and joined in the play with in 5 mins.
When the maltease arrived the vet asked the boxers owners to pick her up as he didnt want the boxer to frighten the maltease. With the boxer now on its owners lap the vet said that with little dogs they will bark at the other dog as a warning. telling the other dog to back off. Buffy went to the maltease and everything was fine they had a sniff and then weren't really bothered with each other. The boxer was then put back down and ran straight to the maltease but before she got anywhere near him the maltease barked the boxer stopped dead in it's tracts and started pawing the air. The vet said that this is how pups ask to play. The maltease didnt want anything to do with the boxer and the boxer left it alone.
My only concern, now thinking of it, was after about 45 mins Buffy got tired and tryed to sleep and the boxer wouldnt let her she then joined the game again but after a few mins she pinned the boxer down by its neck, not hard and she let go when i called her, the boxer then run up to her again and they started mouthing each other, like they were trying to bite mouths but not!!!
I ask the vet if that was normal play and he said that it was. He did watch them the whole time, in fact i don't remember him taking his eyes off them once while they were on the floor.

Sorry its a bit long, but starting to feel concerned now that maybe the class wasn't the best thing.
Buffy does need friends tho and i thought that this was a good idea to meet other pups that we could walk with.

Debbie

Hi Debbie,  I am sure it would be lovely for Buffy to have puppy friends to play with, but if she were mine I would be concerned at just what this sort of play was teaching.  If in a little while she meets another dog in the park and acts this way, what will its reaction be (and its owners)?  I like my bunch to be pleased to meet other pups, but not hysterical, and certainly not bossy.  You always have to consider that some other, bigger/heavier/more determined dog will decide to express disapproval of this sort of game in a very severe fashion.
bye
Gwen

That sort of interaction might be okay with pups of say 8-10 weeks but not 16 weeks.  They are not learning to be sociable, in fact that behaviour is quite anti social.  When I first started running puppy classes about 20 years ago we used to allow and encourage lots of off lead play.  It soon became apparent that we had created a generation of teenage bullies and their victims.  Now our puppy classes are all about teaching pups to want to be with their owner.  To encourage owners to socialise their pups with other dogs we have separate sessions in a large outside environment and we always have adult dogs present to supervise and teach them to be sociable and polite.

Then along came vet's puppy parties :rolleyes:

>>>PS. Buffy also seemed a lot happier today and when we saw dogs walking up the road she was desperate to go and see them where as before she didnt even give them a second look.

I suspect you'll wish this was turned around again in a few months time. ;)
Sally

Hi Debbie

The thing about vets and vet nurses - and please no offence to anyone who is on this forum who is one :D - is that they are very knowledgeable at what they do, but not so good at understanding subtle behaviour, because they are neither trainers nor behaviourists. Unless of course they have made it their business to really learn about puppy socialising :)

I took my dog to 4 vet pup parties. It was the first time i had done so for one of my puppies, and for an hour they all ran around. I was a tad concerned about this as i already knew this wasnt ideal:  my pup more or less totally ignored me, and was learning that other pups were much more fun than i was. I was very 50/50 about returning but deciced on balance that it was best for her - after all, she was meeting other pups! The last session we had a behaviourist in and this was much better, as the pups were allowed some free play but they were matched up carefully (for example very pushy pups who didn't take no for an answer were not allowed free play with shy pups, but were allowed to sniff  and "talk" on relaxed leads).

In the first session, 2 Bcs, littermates, were very scared and kept trying to hide - by the 3rd session, they had learnt to use their herding ability to herd between them any other puppy, but were doing it as a coping strategy, not because they were particularly happy.

As for my dog - she had learnt to basically bomb in and say Hi to any other dog she met, large or small, and once made the mistake of asking an adult  dog to play very pushily and it had a go at her. She very quickly became defensive because she had no idea how to be "nice." She started to give as good as she got, but hated it :(and  it took quite a while of very judicious and careful handling to ensure she learnt better body language and understood how to calm etc. For a short and worrying period i was scared i had ruined my girl and that she was learning to become aggressive :( Her behaviour was a result of the vet puppu party.

She's now excellent and understands not to just assume every other dog is OK. She will offer inviting but much more restrained behaviour and will leave alone if the other dog signals it isnt' keen on play :) But this took some work and I was worried i had really made a wrong decision about taking her to those vet parties.

What i will say is that she is very excited to go into the vets and loves all the nurses, and pulls me in there - one of the few places she is allowed to pull ;) and that even after a few eye examinations, temperature tests and original booster, plus blood taken, she does still love it.

So for me there has been pros and cons. I hope things work out well for you and your puppy :)

Lindsay

Hi all
After carefully reading all your posts i have decided to take Buffy to one more puppy party. This time tho i will not allow as much free play and when i see her getting tired i will make sure she is able to rest.
I have also spoken to a man who owns a bassett hound, he told me that he walks his dog every day with a cocker spanial and 2 labs, he said that there are often lots of other dogs there aswell. I have seen him around before and i think that i will join him and his friends for there walks, this way Buffy gets one more experience of pups but also experience of older dogs aswell. I am going to buy her one of those extendable leads for the time being so that once she gets used to the dogs and them to her she can wonder a bit futher from me but will not be at risk og roads ect.

What do you all think? Whats the best way of introducing her to adult dogs? (i will also ask their owners how their dogs are around pups)

Thanks again Debbie

A few years ago now I attended my vets puppy class. Only to find an aggressive Jack Russell who had left his litter mates at 4wks old, so had no idea how to interact with others :(  I walked out before my Lab pup had time to learn anything bad. I now recommend that people go along to a puppy class without puppy the first time and see how the class is conducted.
Debbie

I would keep her on her lead and just introduce them quietly and just ask her to say hello nicely.  Then you have control over the situation if the older dog gets a bit "over-friendly".

Hi everyone

My Golden retriever Misty is now 10 months old and  I first took her to puppy classes when she was 14 weeks.This was a properly run club class, the emphasis was on settling the puppies down and making them focus on the owner. this took quite a bit of cunning on my part for my hyperactive pup and quite often I didn't see the instructors face as I was on the floor trying to keep Misty's attention. The classes were structured and we were given sheets of what we had done in the class.

However this did pay off and after the first block of 8 weeks lessons with lot's of practice at home she quite quickly learned all the basics. I am glad I didn't take her to a vets class as I think she would have just become a complete bully.
She is still going to classes but we have moved house and the new class is not quite so good, very noisy and not so dog/owner focused.

Good Luck!!