Hi Everybody  Thanks for the advice you have given me over the last couple of days.  I am putting that into action.  I have just been reading posts for the last hour or so and have now worried myself yet again!!  Rose who is 5 months old, loves to go down the beach for an hour or so each day, during which time she chases and returns her ball to me.  Should she be running flat out like this.  She also has a walk in the morning and then in the afternoon it takes us about 20 minutes each way to the beach.  Is this too much exercise for her in a day.  She has loads of energy and is always wanting to play ball in the house, which I have now started to discourage, preferring to give her a chewy, thereby giving her(and me) some rest.  I don't want to cause any damage to her joints.  Could I have caused problems already, as she has been running around like this for about 4 weeks.  I've not worried like this since I had my first baby!!!

I am afraid this is far too much excercise for a 5 month old BC.  The flat out running after the ball is the worse.  They should not have unlimited excercise until they are about 18 months.  After 12 months a little bit of ball chasing is ok.

Having said that, what is done is done, but from now on limit it to max one walk to the beach a day, with a little offlead as long as she doesn't run around flat out. 

The quickest way to wear out a BC is to train it.  When you are at the beach do lots of training excercises, recalls, stays, heelwork, sendaways, anything you like.  The concentration will tire her much more effectively than running after a ball.  For her afternoon session, just do some training at home or a local park, it is amazing what you can teach her and it will help build up a bond between the two of you.

Is there any chance you could join a dog training club, they will guide you in the right direction and you can spend your time training for the next lesson.

Good luck
Sandra

Thanks for your reply Sandrah.  Rose will have to be content with walking on the lead, because on the beach, she runs ahead and then lies on the ground waiting for the ball to be thrown.  When I carry on walking, she runs on ahead and then lies down again.  She doesn't seem to want to just wander around nearby.  She lies there for ages just waiting for the ball to be thrown.  I will try though tomorrow and see if she will enjoy just being on the beach and wandering around.  I do practice recall with her, but she seems to want to do everything at top speed. 
Rose does go to training classes and has done since she was 12 weeks old.  I do little training sessions of 5 minutes or so often with her during the day and she is doing ok.  The biggest problem we have is her jumping up at people when they come in the house.  I have tried all suggestions made to me, but she is just so hyper, especially with other people. She isn't quite so bad with me.  I know from the board that this is a common problem with other dogs.  Actually she is pretty good for her age.
Thanks again

hi all :)

i have a 7 mth old Bc and i too thought i was overexcersising him so i asked my vet and he said that as hes quite a hypo dog hes fine with what we are doing now, as he was never tired at all with his half hr walk he was having. he has 40 mins in the morning frisbee or a river walk (with training included sit/stay etc) and also a fifteen minute to half an hour walk at tea time. he seems happy with this and doesnt get worn out at all with it.

nails :)

Over exercise will put too much stress on growing bones and will stretch the ligaments too quickly.  If the ligaments are pulled too far before the bones have grown you will end up with a dog with a weakness, particularly in the pasterns.  The bones will become spindly and therefore not as strong as they should be.  This can cause problems in later life.

Carole, I think you will find once the habit of looking for the ball has gone, she will be more content and steady on her walks.  Having a ball on every walk can make them more hyper and it becomes a habit and fixation.  Mine is old enough for a frisbee now, but I don't take it each time, she looks for it at first but once she know I haven't got it we have a pleasant walk with her sniffing around doing doggie things in a relaxed manner.

I still say 10 minutes of exercising the mind in worth an hour of exercising the body.

Sandra

A good rule of thumb for puppy exercise is 5 minutes per month of age. This will give you a steady increase of exercise as the puppy gets older. This can be gven possible twice a day, morning and evening with plenty of time for rest in between. Some should be lead work, building the foundation of control for the future and some free running so the puppy grows up confident off the lead.

Best wishes, John

Thanks for your replies.  It is 11 pm and we have had a terrible evening with Rose.  She has not had her usual amount of exercise as suggested.  She has been roaming around the sitting room bored and consequently getting in to trouble by scratching the carpets, the door, the skirting boards.  Then she started racing around the room, up over the sofa, over the chair, jumping up at my husband and snapping at him.  I did about three short training sessions with her, sit/stay, down/stay, stand, heel work etc.  Gave her one of those treat balls to keep her interest and she went absolutely mad, pushing it all around the room, growling as she did it.  It's as though she had all this energy and couldn't get rid of it.  I was fed up of keep getting out of the chair to stop her doing something she shouldn't be doing.  Normally, of an evening she is asleep or happily sits and chews on one of her chewies.  I have now come upstairs for a bit of peace!!  I will definitely take her down the beach tomorrow without the ball because I think you are right Sandra about her becoming fixated with the ball.  She is the same in the house.  She is constantly going to her toy box and bringing out a ball for one of us to throw for her.  When I put the lid on the box, she goes mad clawing at it trying to get in to it.  I will have to find other things to teach her as she is good at the things I have been shown to do at the obedience class.  I started teaching her to leave food which I read on a post be Digger today, so that is something else for her to learn.  I have read that this breed do got bored of doing the same training.  My husband has just come up and told me she is asleep in her crate.  Thank God!!  Tomorrow is another day!!  Goodnight everybody!!

Just a quick reply. I shouldn't be here.  I've 9 collies waiting to go out so I know exactly what you mean.  The things you mentioned that you are teaching her - sit stay down stay stand heelwork and leave are a little boring.  She needs to do more fun stuff and she needs to stretch her brain a little.  Do a google search for clicker training.
Sally

Hi,

I could be completely wrong here so feel free to shoot me down if I am (gently):-)

I actually thought that BC were one of the few breeds that matured quite quickly and also take far more exercise at a younger age than most other breeds and tend to be less prone to hip and joint problems unlike my Goldies where my exercise regime is carefully controlled until after least year old.I have also owned a BC.

briony:-)

I have only had border collies for 30 years so don't have much experience(tongue in cheek :D)

Border collies need as much free running as they cAn get, what no puppy needs is lots & lots of road work/walking on lead

If she likes retrieve & gets fixtated on one object then teach a fun retreive with other things like tug ropes, kongs<geat fun as they don't bounce like a ball, they change direction & are more difficult for the dog to predict> & frisbees. Only one run the objct doesn't get thrown until it is brought back, that way you have the basic of a formal retreive if you ever fancy going into one of the formal disiplines

Boomer balls too big to pick up are also fun as it will teach your dog to play football

A little formal training of 5 mins at a time followed by play time iis better than half an hour at a time, a little & often is always more successful with any dog especially young ones

"Border collies need as much free running as they cAn get, what no puppy needs is lots & lots of road work/walking on lead"

I'm glad to see this. :) I'd always understood that care needs to be taken with overall exercise for giant and very large breed pups and that loads of road work is a bad idea for all pups. But limiting free exercise for most medium/small breeds after 'baby' puppyhood is new to me, especially if the limitation should continue until two years old. My main breed is a giant one, but even so I'm happy for a youngster (excepting the occasional very large male) to have full exercise at around ~15 months.

"If she likes retrieve & gets fixtated on one object then teach a fun retreive with other things ..."

Glad to see this too :) What do you do if you have a dog that is retrieve fixated full stop? I have a young sheltie. Shelties sometimes have problems with retrieving so the retrieve was almost the first thing I taught her. Turns out that it wasn't such a good idea because although she does a beautiful retrieve she's obsessed by it. She will retrieve anything - if the toys are all cleared off the floor she will bring a biscuit or even bit of fluff off the floor and ask for it to be thrown. If you ignore her when she brings a ball or whatever, she presents it , then drops it at your feet or on your lap, noses it, lifts it and presents it again ... and again ... and again. She can be distracted by some other game or by teaching her something new (she loves to learn) but goes straight back to retrieving when the game or lesson is over. I don't want to put her off retrieving but I'd like to limit it.

I'm afraid you have to live with it if your dog is retrieve mad I have for the past 12 years :D

I do use the reward toys tho like buster cubes etc My boy who is mad on retrieving is also a natural herder & I often find all the toys together & him herding them

He does love the boomer(10" I think) tho & spends hours herding it & zooming up & down the dog area with it

When a dog/puppy is given free exercise when they get tired they can rest, it their exercise is all road work they do not get the chance

My BC's have always been working bred & I have always been guided by what the shepherds advised me free running & structured training(the little & often)

Matured quite quickly?? Nope! :D Some do, but many don't.

I've been flicking through the BC yearbooks looking at the hipscores, and although some are good, there are some that aren't. Young dogs shouldn't have that much exercise, and they don't need it, if you stimulate them in another way - ie competitive obedience, tricks etc. I own 2 BC's and train another 2. My first BC I exercised far too much, and he has had more leg problems than you can count on your hands. My 2nd BC is 1 year 9 months and we took exercise very gradually with her, and she has never had a days lameness in her life. On the other hand, a friend has a very very big BC, same age, and was doing small jumps and contact equipment with him at 10 months old... as his bones hadn't grown properly he was out for 4 months with cage rest.

So yes - BC's need controlled exercise until they have fully developed - otherwise they could end up with as many problems as your goldie! :)

Carole,  what I wanted to say but didn't have time before because the dogs needed out is that whilst you do need to be careful not to over exercise her you also don't need any associated problems that go with her not getting enough.  I would apply the minimum exercise rule to the large heavy-boned breeds but be a bit more flexible with a collie.  I might be wrong but I'm sure if you asked a shepherd he would be taking his youngsters out with him. 

All of my collies play ball with me every time that we go out.  I would rather have them focused on a ball than have them find an alternative to get their 'fix'.  They don't play with balls indoors or in the garden, only when we go out.  However it is not just mindless ball chasing.  Each dog has their own ball although they might swap occasionally by mutual consent.  They are more often than not asked to do something before getting the ball, might be as simple as a sit or it might be a whole sequence of commands or tricks.  I do the majority of their training during play, outside.  They also know things like "Heel, big kick" - that means they go behind me so I can do a drop kick and they know its a high one - and "long one" they start running before I throw. 

Anyway I've probably confused you even more now but I hope you find a happy medium.

Sally

I remembered that I had a phone number for a shepherd in the next village so I just phoned and spoke to his wife.  She told me the pups run around the farm all day and once they are 6 months old they are out in the field with the adults.

I still stand by what I have said about over exercise in a BC.  But I will move on, Carole if your pup is tearing around the house up and over the sofa etc. this is down to her having not learn't any manners yet.  Not having the guidelines in place from you for what is and is not acceptable behaviour in your house.  This is not a criticism, just an observation.  If you are happy with her behaving like this then fine, if not, then now is the time to do something about it.   I would guess this bitch is bred from strong working lines so you have your work cut out.  The more you exercise a BC the more it will want, somewhere along the line you have to find a balance.

I have always found that routine is the best form of training, they go out at a set time, inbetween they behave in an acceptable manner in my house to my rules.  She needs to be guided by you to what those rules are.  If I had an occassion as you are describing I would put her on a lead, and make her settle by my chair, give her a chew by all means but show her how you expect her to behave. Quietly praise her when she is being good, if she fights it ignore her, you have the lead, you have control.  Use a command like 'settle' then you are not asking for a down or a sit, you are just asking for her to behave.  If she really throws a strop, put her outside the room (a crate would be useful), when she quietens down bring her in and try again.  I would use the lounge as an invitation room only.  If mine come in they know they behave themselves.

This won't happen overnight, you must be consistant with it, but if you don't get on top of it while she is at this age she will only get worse.

Hope this helps
Sandra

I bow to your greater knowledge Sandra I've only ever had working bred BC's so no nothing of obedience or show bred ones. Mine have all had unlimited free exercise & even the one with severe HD(never caused by over exercise)has never been lame or had leg problems

They have always been fed the best that I can afford & the only thing I restrict is compulsory exercise The same with my GSD's, Beardies & cavaliers.

Too much training of a young dog can turn off it's desire to work as happened to a young GSD bitch who was C only at a very early age. She went on in a different ownership to get made up & be second at Crufts on at least on occassion, but the handler had to stop training & the only obedience she did was in the ring

They need to have their minds stimulated what ever breed they are otherwise they can think up their own games with may or may not be acceptable.

To restrict free running will stop the natural development of muscle growth & toming, compulsory exercise(road work)on the other hand does damage the growth plates. A dog will not run for hours on end without stopping unlike a dog who's only exercise is road walking the dog has no choice but to move when the handler moves

I watch my BC's playing as puppies & there are short bursts of frenetic play then rest & sleep & then it is repeated. If I walked the dog for the same amount of time as they play without stopping I would have dogs like the BC's who live in the village who only ever go for "walkies" one has severe growth plate damage & the other so lacking in muscle 2 minutes playing tiring him out. My dogs never go for walks Shock horror becuse the roads are not safe & I am not able to walk at a speed they would be happy with

As for sending a dog to its crate for unacceptable behaviour isn't that breaking the first rule of crate training-that it is not a punishment zone ?

I've said before I do expect my puppies to behave like well puppies including the Kevin months not like perfect dogs

Hi Moonmaiden

I agree too much training will turn off any dog, however, if it is kept as fun and motivational they thrive on it, thats why I hope this poster has a good trainer at her club.

With the exercise, our experience can tell us when enough is enough, this poster is asking the question is she giving too much.  I think if she loses the ball for the time being, then the dog won't over exercise herself with a stroll along the beach.  The ball is causing the problem, because as we know they get fixed on it and will chase it forever, with no thought that they had had enough.

I take your point about the crate being used as punishment.  I just felt this pup needed a chill out/cool off period where it can't chew the skirting boards etc.

I agree puppies need to be able to be puppies, but in my book and it sounds like in the posters, charging around the house snapping at them is not acceptable, we all have different opinions to what we find acceptable from our dogs.

I think the main problem here is this lady has a BC of working strain hoping she can make it into a family pet.  Even with our experience of the breed this is no easy task, we can just hope we can help her control the situation while the pup is young, before it becomes totally out of hand.

Sandra :)

Hi,

Actually going to appear thick here so bare with me.When I had Bracken on her pedigree
it says working sheepdog and also a trials record and eyes tested no problems.Beautiful blackwhite with lovely markings longer outer coat.Now I read this as not a border collie then or was she.Her pedigree name was Shepherdsway Bracken she died at 16yrs very active needed far more exercise than my Goldies better off her lead than ever on.Possibly made a very pretty show dog.

Briony:-)

Hi,

Just to clear something up my original post was not very clear,my Goldies do NOT have any problems I just have a very careful exercise regime in place because they are a larger breed and exercise is gradually built up.I just thought collies could take the greater amount of  exercise sooner than Goldens.Obviously I was wrong.

Briony:-)

Briony

If your dog was KC registered as a Working Sheepdog then it would have been on the KC working register rather then the breed one.  To register a dog as a Border Collie both the sire and the dam must have been registered with the KC or the ISDS as Border Collies.

This means that you could not show her as a Border Collie in a KC show, but you could have done any of the working sports like agility, obedience or working trials.

Sandra

Hi Sandarah,

No she was never shown,she just looked nice.Her pedigree just says working sheepdog her
parents were un-reg however it mentions working trial record not sure what thats about.
She was a lovely pet dog we got her at 5yrs, very obedient ,good with children and other animals.Her eyes were clear for collie eye?from the working sheep dog society .Great dog sadly missed.

Briony:-)

Hi

Sorry just got her papers down,I have a BVA EYE CERT PASS,
Kennel Club reg cert which says Shepherdsway Bracken
                                            working sheepdog
                                             obedience&working trials record
                                       
   sire- shep un-reg                                    colour-black&white
    dam-bess un-reg                                    stamped KC/BVA/ISDS

The registration cert is 1985

Regards Briony

The First BCs to be treated as showable had either to be ISDS registered, from ISDS registered parents & already be on the then obedience/WT register as a BC(ie at some point the parents etc were ISDS registered & had been bred with other BC's registered on the O/WT register or from a mating to an ISDS dog/bitch to a KC registered bitch/dog

Now it is from the KC(ie UK or abroad)registered parents, ISDS registered or from a mating to an ISDS reg dog/bitch to a KC reg bitch/dog, BUT the KC are now talking about registering ALL WSD as BC Arggggh no problem if it is just one dog that wasn't ISDS registered in the past, but you can get any dog & register it at present as a WSD(I've seen Aussie X BC so registered which if the KC go ahead would mean it would be a BC)

My first BC was from ISDS parents but the breeder was not a member of the IDSD so she was a WSD but my subsequent dogs have been ISDS reg & i'm an ISDS member so my dogs puppies from iSDS registered bitches could be registered

As long as people who get BC's realize they need lots of things to do when young & structured play & interaction & yes even the perfect puppy goes through the kevin stage albeit for a shorter period than the naughty puppy.

Well i'm off to bed having bathed & groomed 4 cavaliers for the show later today whilst the BC's sleep & snore in their bed :D

Hi moonmaiden,

You sound like you got loads of experience so thats why I'm gonna ask you this question :D

I've always been told that until a dog is at least 12 months to give it very little free running. Not much road walking. But stimulation, and basic agility - ie teaching it lefts and rights and doing little bits of running between wings etc.

Now that you've said they should have unlimited free running, could you explain a bit more please what exercise you'd give a pup, right up to when it's fully grown?

Thanks

Char

Basically i never road walk my dogs as the road are not safe & there are too many locals who have no idea how to keep their dogs in so road walking doesn't play any part in my dogs' exercise

I have about half an acre of back garden one third is a tarmac all weather dog area that the dogs have access to all the time as the only tijme the back door is shut is if it is raining or snowing etc

I have never had a single dog & my puppies mix with the older ones from day one I have always had a GSD who loves puppies & the puppy is usually found running around/playing with the GSD My collies dislike puppies(basically puppies frightened them:D)& don't play anywhere near them until they have gone though the kevin time & have a bit of respect for older dogs

The puppies are never stopped from going out & playing & in the summer they have access to the grassed area as well(must add there is a six foot + concrete wall all the way around the garden & the gates are padlocKed shut)

All my dogs love retreive so extra exercise is simple lobbing the ball, frisbee, tuggy etc as far as I can & I never restrict the puppy from joining in(even the cavaliers)

Added to this I include fun training with the puppy like recalls, heelwork(always taught off lead with titbits/toys as reward),sit & down stays, instant downs, ringcraft heelwork & ringcraft stance

When the puppy crashes out the older dogs get their training & more exercise

My puppies always emerge from puppy hood well muscled & with basic training.

I also attend a training club where we socialize & get used to behaving around other dogs & doing more formal training-but never for more than a few minutes at a time

I basically treat my dogs as dogs they have their own pack placing with me at the top. I keep a close eye the puppies development weight & movement wise & even set up the video to check on the way the puppy moves etc as it's something I cannot see myself when the puppy is with me training-it opens your eyes to what you are doing wrong to

Even my cavaliers are raised this way, they never have any leg or growth problems & they are always muscled up

I never start any agility until the puppy has been x rayed as the obedience I do is a good grounding

Must get off here now as I have four cavaliers to get ready for tomorrow :D & yes they have been gardening today so are mud & ruby rather than blenheim :D

Just to clear the Working Sheepdog/Border Collie thing. Many years ago the obedience ring was literally full of Border Collies. At the time when the Border Collie was accepted by the KC anything which was registered with the International Sheepdog Society (the ISDS) could be registered with the KC as a Border Collie. Anything which was not registered could no longer be called a Border Collie and the name that these could be entered as changed into Working Sheepdog. From then on, as any Border Collie type dog came into the obedience ring we had to ask, "BC or WS?" so that we could correctly list them.

As to the amount of exercise. It matters not one jot whether we are talking about a yorkie, BC, Labrador or Great Dane. The bones take just as long to solidify and you stand exactly the same chance of damage by over exercising. Never walking your dog on the road and only doing minimal lead training may be ok for a few lucky people but for the bulk of people who have to walk their dogs to the park of fields then lead training is essential.

Regards, John

Thanks to everyone for their help and advice.  I took Rose to the vets today with a problem with her eye (blocked tear duct). and took the opportunity to ask about exercise.  The vet said not to be worried about having damaged Rose already with the exercise she has been having, but to be mindful of not letting her get too over tired in the future.  She said that free exercise on the beach is fine, maybe for 1/2 hour or so twice a day, and a couple of short walks on the lead would be fine.  She said it wasn't as much a worry with collies as other bigger breeds.  She stated that over-nutrition was of more concern regarding HD because the dog grows too quickly, thereby putting  strain on the joints.  Apparently at 13 kg Rose is at the right weight for her 22 weeks.  I took her down the beach this evening without the ball and she was really good.  Even did  recalls on three occasions when dogs came along, (helped by my shaking a little bell). I was very pleased with that.  She did run around at her own speed and spent some time sniffing and digging.  She did appear to take more notice of us instead of constantly looking for the ball. She is now happily sound asleep in her crate.  (and Peter and I are both much happier and saner tonight!!)
Rose is of working stock, both parents are excellent working dogs.  I am aware that it maybe more difficult training Rose to be a family pet, but having said that, she is responding extremely well - jumping up and pulling being our biggest hurdle at the moment.  Every day she seems to be getting a little better with other things though.  Today, I managed to get her to wait until I got out of the car first. (normally I have a terrible struggle controlling her because she wants to be first).  Also today I taught her to wait until I told her to eat her dinner.  (Very surprised at the speed she learned that!!).  She is also starting to sit and wait whilst I open and go through the door first.
Sandra is right in that I do expect Rose to have boundaries in the house.  She is not allowed upstairs or on the furniture, and I don't allow family members to give tit bits unless as rewards (can't stand a dog begging every time you are eating).  I have now stopped the ball playing in the house.  The incident with her running over the furniture and snapping (in a "let's play" way) I think this was caused by her having so much unspent energy.  As suggested by Sally I am now going to learn other, more fun ways of training, to help keep her mind ticking over.  I don't want to make her bored.
Rose is dear little dog, who looks like she has the makings of a great family pet, who will hopefully be with us for many years.  I know that with the help of you more experienced people, and lots of love and patience, I will be able to achieve this. 
Many thanks to you all for taking the time to give me advice.
ps  Sorry this was such a long post, but I feel so much better tonight!!

Well done Carol, I am so pleased you are feeling much better about her tonight.  You will go through a series of ups and downs over the coming months, but if you can see progress, even if it is slowly it is so rewarding. 

I hope she continues to improve, she sounds lovely and is very lucky to have you.

Sandra

Glad your feeling better Carole and it's good that your vet was able to reassure you.   Hope you have lots of fun with Rose for years to come.
Sally

Sandra, I agree with you that the more exercise you give them, the more they will want and I'm also with you on the house rules and the manners.  I have nine collies from 6 months to 16 years.  They are allowed in the lounge by invitation only and they are expected to settle.  One of them would be quite content to lie on the sofa all day and of course the old girl just pootles about now but I wouldn't expect the rest of them to be able to settle if they hadn't had at least 3 good runs during the day.  Six of them I have taken on after their previous owners were unable to cope with the needs of a collie. I do lots of motivational training and agility and they also swim regularly.  I know the ancestry of one of my girls, she is from a long line of obedience/agility dogs and I have since found out that the youngest rescue has two trial champions as his parents (his breeder sold him to an inexperienced pet home!!!) but I wouldn't like to categorise the rest of them into working or show type.
Sally

It seems to be agreed by everyone that too much exercise is bad for growing pups, but there also seems to be a distinction between lead/road work and free running. Our 4 month lab walks on a lead for about 5 mins to the orchards where he wanders around, sometimes running, sometimes walking for about half an hour and we do this normally 3 times a day. This is in addition to playing in the garden and house. Do people think this is too much or does it sound OK??

Hello Carole,

Nice to hear from another BC afficionado, but so sorry to hear about your problems. My partner Geoffrey and I have been breeding BC's for many years and we understand the problems that you are having. I think you ought to be offering something more mentally stimulating to Rose rather than running after a ball - wouldn't you find it boring after a while? BC's are an intelligent breed - more intelligent than we give them credit for.

Geoffrey and I have been in Chihuahua's and Poodles, both of which suit our personalities, but we found no challenge until we moved into BC's. We had similar problems to you but found that they soon settle down if given the right food and mental stimulation. They are very fond of poetry and classical music and just adore the ballet. When we have music and poetry evenings they are allowed to join in - they just sit there and listen with never so much as a woof! Our friends find it so amusing.

You also need to check that their diet is full of "brain" food such as fish roe (caviare will do nicely) and octopus.

Hope this helps - Claude and Geoffrey.

Oh yeah rite

Love it Claude :D Mind you I used to think my terrier was super intelligent until I saw her lips moving as she was reading, now I'm not so sure.