Gina...stag hunting in a nutshell:
The Harbourer (a local man who knows the deer/country like the back of his hand, goes out the night before a hunt and "harbours"the hind/stag.
ie it could be a troublesome male, a poor specimin, a consistently lame one, a sick one. He tracks it & notes where its lying up.

In the morning, two tufters (ie. very reliable hounds) are taken to where the harboured deer was last seen & "put on". If they start hunting the right deer, then the rest of the pack are put on. If they go onto the wrong one, they are lifted & start again.
It is not a case of "right lets go out on Exmoor & chase/kill any old deer we come across."
The deer is carefully chosen so as to eradicate weaker/poorer specimens from the Herd.The deer tends to go into deep cover etc & the hounds will locate it & push it out, until it turns to "bay" (an instinct of stags to stop, face their enemy & attack it). Then one of the hunstaff gets up close & kills it with a humane killer.
Deerhounds are not reallly used for deer these days, but yes, you can course hares with them. The point of hare coursing is not to kill the hare, but to turn it & show immense speed/skill. Only 2 in 20 hares actually get killed coursing....its very hard for anything other than the very fastest cleverest hound to actually kill one. My young bitch saw her 1st hare last week but didn't have the skill/speed to match it for more than a few seconds.

Dear Sam .....thought I had got it wrong .. goes to show people should be careful in getting all the info together if they have to vote personally on anything. Not liking something isnt quite the same thing although we can all have our own opinions in any event. Regards Gina

I can't belive what I have just read from Sam stating that 3 foxes were killed on her day out hunting! I really took offence sorry.

The purpose if listing those who attended the blood bath day out really means nothing, if an MP or Paper Operative were on the day out is not the point to me, just the fact that killing an animal makes me feel sick.

You state the foxes were ill anyway and that makes it right?

And to reply to Sharon's message, I do eat meat I know where it comes from! If that makes me wrong than so be it, but I just don't like the thought of animals terrified, tired, being ripped apart by dogs and those nice horsey people getting the kicks out of it. It just does not seem right to me?

I don't mean to offend anyone here just my point of view (which I was worried about telling in the first place!)

I do know these things go on and everyone has the right to their opions, but to state how many animals were killed is to much information for me!

Julieann

JulieAnn

Can i just ask have you seen the state of a chicken cope if a fox manages to get in? Well that would make you feel sick.

TJD

No can't say that I have seen that happen and would not want to. what is the purphas of your posting? Saying that it's OK to kill animals then or the fact it makes me feel sick what goes on?

I know a lot of people think of foxes as vermin but it does not make it right in my view to chase them till they drop and get ripped apart by a pack of dogs - OH but of course this is a nice way to put them out of their pain as it happens very fast, so thats all right then?

Julieann

HI Julieanne, Foxes riddled with mange have been done a BIG favour believe me to be killed outright. Have you ever seen/looked after a dog with mange? A wild fox would have no chance of being treated/cured and would die a miserable painful death being eaten from the inside out and from starvation as they would eventually be too ill to hunt for food. They will infect their babies and any other fox they come into contact with, it is incredibly contagious. So many foxes now have mange that many pet dogs are being infected. Not all dogs respond to treatment, I had to have 2 put down after trying to rid them of it with weekly trips to the vet for 18 months. I had to give up and have them PTS when I was 8 3/4 months pregnant as I had risked myself and my baby enough with weekly washes of Lindane for all that time and could not consider continuing after the baby was born.

weistie Lover,

No I would not want to see any animal in pain or slowly dying. I am not that stuipd to let an animal suffer becasue I would not want to see it die. It sounds a terrible way to die.

Its just the idea of it that really gets me down in hunting in general. I do understand that if there was no hunting the dogs would be put to sleep, I also note that some anti people can do more damage than good which makes a joke of trying to protest about animal crultiy.

It is such a difficult subect really and everyone is entiled to their own ideas about hunting. I did take offence about the way it was put with the three foxes being killed. I don't mean to be a "head in the sand job" if you know what I mean, but some times it does help me to ingore what goes on as it upsets me so much.

Its like I don't like zoo's keeping animals in cages etc, but on the other hand they do save animals from disapearing all together?

I don't like people that abuse their pets either, saw a horrilbe site on holiday in cornwall last year women and man kicking their shepdog in the stomach because he would not sit down. I had to say something, and for my effort was to to f... Off. That poor dog what he must be going through.

Julieann

Juliann, well done for saying something to those "people" who were kicking their dog - I wish them all they deserve!! :D

Lindsay

Thanks Sam. We cross-posted, but as you can see I thought you'd know :-)

Hi Gina, yes hare coursing. If you (or anyone else) is interested I'll write an account of what happens at a deerhound/saluki coursing meeting and post it.

In the past deerhounds were used in pairs to bring red deer stags to bay, after which the huntsman dispached it, so yes the deer was chased by the hounds until it was brought down, exhaused or trapped in a place it couldn't get out of. In the Highlands it was just about the only way to hunt deer until the advent of accurate rifles. Improved guns largely brought coursing deer with deerhound to an end, and so almost finished the deerhound off as a breed. Deer are still hunted by packs of staghounds (not deerhounds) in parts of England, but I don't know much about that. (Maybe someone does - Sam?). Hunting deer with dogs has been illegal in Scotland for quite some time, though I won't say it never happens. But I doubt that many modern deerhound owners would risk their dogs by deliberately asking them to course a stag - I know I wouldn't - even if it was legal.

Foxes do look pretty, but as you are basing your feelings about hunting them on love of animals, can I ask you to give some thought to the rat? Rats don't look attractive, but they are actually clever inquisitive little things, and they make very good pets. Many people who are horrified by the idea of hunting foxes with dogs would happily put down poision if they discovered rats on their property. Yet rat poision is an anti-coagulant (originally warfarin), which causes the rat to bleed to death. The idea is that as the unfortunate creature bleeds into it's gut, it crawls off to die, so removing it's own corpse from our view.

Call me stupid but I like pet rats wouldnt have one cos they smell but wouldnt be frightened of one. Would be frightened on a big black wild one though!! BUT wouldnt kill it so it bled to death. We did have mice once and I bought humane traps and let them go ... I know.. but they didnt come back to me.. they were so cute and tiddly about an inch big like a shrew. Thanks for the rest of your information. You say in the past what happened re deer hunting so it doesnt seem to be as bad nowadays if you read Sam's posting. My opinion (sorry getting paranoid about saying wrong thing nowadays although I am sure I will again one day) LOL Regards Gina.

Gina, there is an other side to the rat coin :-) There isn't much risk of bubonic plague in the UK these days, but having wild rats around the place is a good way to get Weil's disease (leptospirosis). It can be fatal (when I was a small child our minister died from it) and it isn't a nice way to go. So getting rid of rats is a good idea, but without poison how do you do it?

Hi Sharon. This is another thing I have no idea about so have no answer but there must be a better way than making them bleed to death - wouldnt think that would help if anyone touched them if all their insides were out??? I must admit that I have never ever seen a wild rat only on the TV. I have one thing I must admit to even if I do love most animals I HATE SPIDERS. A squashed one is better than a live one, I have asked neighbours to kill one/get rid of it for me because I cannot stay in the house with it once I have seen it. I've even stayed out in the rain waiting for husband to come home. Ugghhh. Regards Gina Sorry this is really deviating off the serious subject must be the football LOL

Sam, just a couple of things:you listed who went out hunting with you. Serious question - how many riders need to go out with the pack of hounds to kill the foxes? Is the "social" side not what makes this appear a "sport" instead of genuine vermin control?
LynnT

Lynn
Damn good point ,wish I'd thought of that. I think thats what a lot of peoples problem is with hunting of most forms, too many against one animal and the fact that we civilised humans get too much pleasure out of it. If hunting foxes with hounds is the best way of culling them I could probably deal with it better if it was regulated so that it became a controled/licsenced practice instead of a sport.
I went to an agricultural college and we had plenty of debates on the subject of hunting and the one thing which sticks in my mind is that the people who supported it just wouldn't or couldn't accept that what they were doing was possibly wrong, and I think that is another problem people have with those who hunt, they don't want to listen, they refuse to consider any one elses opinion.
Most people I knew who hunted did it for the pleasure of the ride, most of them weren't interested in the vermin control side of it.
Perhaps if the hunt supporters were more willing to consider others opinions and open to change on a small scale then we wouldn't feel the need to ban hunting totally, as usual it is probably a small arrogant minority which have given it such a bad image.
We'll never live in a perfect world but if we could learn to consider others we might be able to make it better.

Lynn, I can see your point & where you are coming from.........it only needs one person to hunt the hounds, and 3 whips, but because the farmer had lost a lot of early lambs this month he was adamant that the foxes were dealt with, so it took pretty much all of us to hold up the coverts to stop the fox "running" so that the pest species was killed quickly, efficiently & humanely.Also, due to DEFRA regulations regarding FMD, any coverts that are likely to hold deer, must be held up & the fox not allowed to "run" so we have to comply with theses legal requirements by having a good sized mounted field.
On other occassions its not neccessary to have so many mounted followers or foot followers, but then, since when has it been a crime to ride out on private land, with the landowners permission and enjoy yourself?
As my other half says (he's a MFH) and dartmoor hill farmer, "hunting would be a whole lot easier if we didn't have a field following"....but then, they pay the wages, horse/hound bills!

Hi Gina, it isn't easy is it :-) Ratting with terriers and ferrets is the most humane way of dealing with rats imo, but it is not very efficient unless they are working an enclosed space - a barn or whatever. You aren't he only spider phobic around! On Burns night past my husband had to break into a ladies' loo in order to rescue a colleague who had been trapped there by a spider. Caroline vanished, and when we went to investigate all we could hear were wheezing sounds from the locked cubicle. We thought she was having a heart attack, so cue poor Ian to break down the door. And the funny thing is that Ian (who shoots and goes coursing) keeps an old Band-Aid tin in our own bathroom to rescue spiders found in the bath, and gets annoyed with me if I dispatch them down the plug hole :D. Mind you, I do understand - although I go out to lamp rabbits with the dogs, I hate hitting one when I'm driving. Sometimes I think there is no logic to animal issues :-)

We've had rats as pets for ages and if properly cleaned out they don't smell !!!
Rodents and rabbits are excluded from the proposed English Bill so they wouldn't have to be poisoned. Ingrid

Just a follow up to the above: when I say most deerhound owners wouldn't risk their dogs by working red deer, I mean by coursing the stag in the traditional way - a very dangerous activity for the dog - not the sort of deer hunting Sam described. It isn't that deerhounds and deerhound owners in Scotland are more timorous than the sassenach variety :D

Hi all, I wish I could come on the march, but I will be there in spirit. One thing that I haven't heard mentioned either in this thread or in any debates I have seen in the media is - what will happen to the hounds? Anyone who has any knowledge of pack hounds will know that they cannot be re-homed into a pet environment, except perhaps any puppies. I doubt hounds trained to follow fox scent - and ONLY fox scent - could be trained to drag hunt - but I may be wrong. What will happen to these hundreds, possibly thousands of hounds? It would take many many hunting seasons to kill as many foxes. I suspect they would be shot by the Huntsmen if hunting with hounds is banned. Do any regular hunt followers know what the hunts plan to do with their hounds?

Good point 'Westie Lover'! Replies will be interesting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Westie, a friend of ours suggested that the antis should be given guns and told to get to work destroying the hounds. Then they could start on the horses. I see his point - why should the now unemployed huntsman do it?

Sharon,

Pardon me? The huntsmen need the dogs and are reasponsible for them.

In general its us humans that have done this and I agree that the if the hunts are banned then the dogs will have to be put to sleep which is cruel too.

Does not matter how I look at it its cruel from both sides?

Julieann

If the bill comes in the hounds will be put to sleep? And it will be us humans to blame! Sorry but its true, all they will know is to chase and kill so it would be very hard to rehome them. Boarder Collies are very diffrent.

Its wicked which ever way you think of it, fox hunting or hounds being put to sleep as they are no longer needed or wanted?

Julieann