hi all :)

im writing this in hope if some guidance of what is the right and wrong thing to do as im sick of hearing that my dog is really bad behaved etc the worst anyone has ever seen on the lead, he needs to go to school etc etc
i have a 7 mth old border collie. From day one he has always been very hyper bundle of energy which is fine by me, probably doesnt help that i have an active toddler but they love each other to pieces so thats not a problem in my eyes. The problem is being on the lead. he has always pulled from day one. Admittingly as never being a dog owner myself i thought this was natural and they grew out of it untill a mth later i came to this site and realised it was my fault he was pulling. Ive tried everything i can to stop it but nothing seems to be working. I walk him everyday twice most days and everything ive tried isnt working. I dont have a garden (have a shared yard with other neighbours) so cant do training with him there and the way my house is lay out (and moving house in 2 weeks so boxes everywhere) i have no rm to do it here either. Because he was pulling it seemed he was only pulling to get to lamposts/walls where other dogs have obviousley toileted. So i thought ill get him a longer lead so without pulling he can reach these areas (theyre only on the same path im walking not far away etc) so we got him the flexi lead. Now someone has said to me you shouldnt have your dog walking freely ahead/away from you like that as he will never take it that you are boss. Is this right? ive seen loads of dogs on these leads that are quite happy in open areas (as my guinness is) to wander around but be shortened when people are around etc
second problem which ties in with this is why is he pulling so badly towards the posts etc? is it a hormone thing etc? if we are at the local river/field he walks perfectly fine but when we are in an enclosed area he is adamanat on pulling to sniff these areas. Due to the size of him (big for his age and getting bigger) he has started to really hurt my arm now when he pulls me and my hand is started to blister lol from trying to hold the lead when he pulls so hard. I really dont want to continue like this but have run out of ideas. Ive tried treating him, he has no interest in squeaky toys, he loves his frisbee but carrying it that has no effect when he wants to go and sniff, ive tried talking to him getting his attention and he completely ignores me :(  im really gutted as ive walked him everyday siince getting him and spend a lot of time with him as i dont work and have really tried my best to train him correctly and the best i can and i feel it has gotten me nowhere as people like to tell me all to often. He is very good with everything else at home, he sits/stays/knows his left and right paw but as soon as we hit outside he goes deaf esp when he sees people and dogs etc his recall is ok if were in an empty field.

can anyone please offer me advice as i feel really low and could do with some guidance on what to do as people keep telling me all the bad things i seem to have done! I was unable to attend puppy classess and still am due to their time and my home situation but would willingly take on board any advice given.

many thanks for reading i know its a long one lol

nails :0)

Hi! dont worry!
i do obedience comps, & have 3 B.Cs!
all my dogs do close heelwork on & off the lead at shows,but i do not insist on this in evry day life!
tara is the oldest & has always pulled a little,so she wears a halti.
Nellie has never pulled!
Flynn is a year old and pulls like a train!! i dont really worry about this as when competing i want really stylish heelwork which i wont get if im nagging him all the time! if we are doing road work he wears a gentle leader which he dosent really pull against but still walks a little in front! i dont have a problem with this.

Alot of collies like to pull cos they want to get on with it! you need to decide what you can put up with! some sort of headcollar will help without nagging all the time!

with a collie i dont think wanting to be in front is a dominince issue!
your dog sounds like a typical collie! yes they are quirky & not every dog trainer understands them!!![i speak from personal experince here!]

It might be a very good idea if you can attend GOOD training classes so that you can pick up some ideas to help you.

Lead training takes a very long time, in the interim have you thought of using a halti/gentle leader headcollar in order to make it easier to manage.  It will not train your dog but it will help you manage him better and prevent him dragging you about and hurting you.

When you are walking your dog you should not allow him to drag you about and sniff and lift his leg where he wants; the dog is going out to exercise his body, not his bowels until and unless you specifically allow him to.  Apart from the fact that is very unhygienic to allow your dog to lift its leg anywhere and everywhere; it is just marking territory not for elimination.

Flexi leads are fine for exercising dogs in open areas if you cannot control them off the lead however they are very dangerous used on pavements; many dogs have been killed or injured by cars as they have been so far ahead the owner cannot stop them from jumping into the road!

Using a headcollar will mean you have more control over your dog and if you keep on walking with this he will be unable to drag you about.

HTH

nails, what area are you in?

I hope you don't take this the wrong way but you need to sort it NOW, before he becomes an adult. If he is hurting you why not try a halter-type collar. This goes on the head so you have more control.

When he pulls make him sit. Every time. You'll feel daft when you stop every step or two but believe me, they learn very quickly that they won't be going anywhere until they walk nicely.

Border Collies are very active and intelligent so he should learn very quickly. Someone with Borders will no doubt be along later with other help. Good luck ;)

Maybe try a gentle leader or if not when he pulls, I would walk back a few paces and start the walk again or maybe even try a clicker to teach the dog that a loose lead is the best way to go.

Hi,
  I agree with what Michelle has said - my collie is great at obedience, but she still pulls on the lead - so she wears a halti.  I tried all the usual things, like changing direction, etc, but nothing ever worked, and we don't have a problem with the halti.  On the other hand, my other dog, who can pull on the lead as well, would never take to wearing a halti, so he wears a harness instead.  One thing that I do teach my dog, being male, is that when he is on lead/harness, he doesn't stop every 5 seconds to have a sniff or cock his leg, so when he starts veering off to someone's gate post, I do pull him back.  Of course I do allow him to have a couple of wees when we first leave the house, but then that's it until we get to the beach/field where he goes off lead and can do what he likes!
  Hilda

As soon as he pulls to have a pee just keep walking,say his name or "this way" & give a gentle tug, then a "good  lad"
by stopping this will probaley cause him to pay abit more attention to you anyway! try a hearcollar or harness & get a soft lead for your hand! if you can get him to play with his lead abit that might help with his attention!

hi all

sorry i might not have made it clear with my trying to fit so much into my post lol he doesnt actually lift his legs at the moment, so could he be trying to get to the posts to do this? he hasnt shown any sign of wanting to pee when were out like that as he always go in the yard b4 we go out and when we return (something i learnt off CD) he just wants to sniff sniff sniff. I did have a halti for 2 mths and he absolutely hated it and was advised by the pet shop that i shouldnt use the halti with the flexi lead so stopped using it. he still pulled ahead with it and didnt actually care less for his head being further behind. On any pedestrian areas the flexi lead is always short so i can fully control him nr road/people but where i live in the lakes its pretty much all fields and river we got to walking. I much prefer the flexi lead as where the river is where i live he can adventure further down the embankments without me having to go knee deep in swamp and all other thing not to nice lol but i still have him in control.

Would you advise a body harnass to be better than the halti/which type of lead would you recommend if so. Thanks to all that have answered me on this im just getting really worried that he will never change and the rest of my dog walking life with him will be a nightmare and unpleasant, which id hate to happen as i do love taking him out walking, and he is such a lovely friendly dog at all other times (apart from jumping on top of other dogs when he sees them buts that another topic another day lol)

thanks again and i look forward to reading any further advice given,

nails :)

ps to the above poster i dont take offence to any replies as i know this is my fault and only i can remedy it! i appreciate any advice good or bad.

Hi nails! i suspect the sniffing will LEAD to leg cocking as he matures so if you sort that out now then all the better!
7months isnt very old to be not cocking his leg! some collies dont till they are two! my boy did at 4months but his brothers didnt at a year!

try a harness!! there are also different types of headcollar!that are different to the halti!& have different actions! i cant say mine like the headcollars but they dont mind too much & im happier! the gentle leader dosent pull the head around like the halti does! obvisley it would be better to borrow them cos youll be bankrupt trying all these out!

does he not go off the lead at all?if he can let off some steam he may be calmer!!!!!

Hi we used a harness on our border collie as she can pull for england it has made a big difference she still pulls slightly but thats fine but we can take a walk now without ending up in agony I found she will now walk on a lead without to much pulling and no need for the harness all the time if she starts getting bad we just use it again for a few days to remind her
maggie

It may be worth reviewing his food intake.  Perhaps his food is too high in protein which can make a dog hyper-active.  Before doing anything you should get him checked out at the vets to make sure everything is physiologically ok,
Does he respond well to food rewards?  If so, if if you can get his attention with the frisbee then maybe you could try clicker training.  Or else try and make yourself more interesting than anything he could possibly find outside!  Another method is to stop evertime he pulls until he stops and is calm, then start walking again until he pulls then stop again.  When he is in the correct position reward him, when he pulls say nothing.  The main thing to remember is not to pull back on the lead as he is pulling as this will make the situation worse.  I have a WS (unregistered BC), and she also pulls on the lead, but using the stopping technique it has improved a lot.  The prinicple is that the dog will learn pulling brings no reward but just nothing; a dull experience or negative reniforcement, and walking beside you/not pulling means the walk continues and is a positive reninforcement.
Can I ask how his attitude is in the home?  Does he push past you in doorways etc.?  This may indicate a heirachal problem.  Although he obeys commands in the home, it is to his benefit - there is nothing else on offer so he may as well obey and get a game or food, whereas when he is outdoors there is so much going on that the reward of it outweighs anything you can offer him!  You will have to try and convince him othewise.  Would it be possible train him outside at all?  Simple things like making him sit before crossing the road, add some spontaneous 'down' commands etc. when there is not too many distractions will let him know that you expect to be listened to outside as well as in the home.
Good luck with it and try not to despair - don't listen to anyone who tells you it is your fault; everything comes with experience and I'm sure that whoever has said this to you wasn't born knowing everything!  My own collie/WS is still aggressive with other dogs, and you do get sick of people bitching at you about it when you are trying to correct the behaviour.  Just try to ignore them.  You know that you are doing something about it, so this is a minor blip!

MW

Hi Nails!
ive been thinking about your prob alot!
Border Collies are lovely dogs, but not easy, especailly as your 1st dog! a really good book is "understanding border collies" by carol price!

well done for starting to train at home! keep going with this as you cant go to classes, as collies need to be kept mentally active too! if you dont have any competitve asperations theres lots of stuff you can do at home to keep him entertained & to build up the bond between you!

"findies" hide his toy or food in a room, when he cant see, them bring him in & tell him to find,you may have to help him at first till he gets the idea!

teach him the names of his toys, 2 or 3 at first, ie "bally", "ropey" & "ted"

teach him positions in squence, ie, sit to down,down to stand,stand to sit, etc!

you can also get treat balls & kongs to put food in that they have to work to get to!

hi all

thank you so much for all your help and advice i feel better now that i can still do something about it before it becomes permanant. at home his behaviour is fine, he has always been made to sit before we go through doors then he follows when told to and even when opening the front door for walking he sits and waits untill i tell him to walk, he has a kong too which lasts all of one hour max lol even frozen! he goes running most days of the week, he has a 15 min walk to the fields where we go then he has frisbee play for agessss and also training on the field with sit and stay etc. the vet did say when we went a while back he is very hyperactive and will need to have a good walk/run at least once a day which is why now he goes out twice a day, an hour in the morning and half an hourish or more in late afternoon.
well i will go and look at harnassess and the gentle leader tomorrow and try out some of your methods, i like the idea of the hide and seek game so will try this one. I was just getting quite stressed really as ive tried so much and so hard to get it right.thanks again guys you are all brill i will keep you all updated :)

Nails :)

can i just ask would you use any of the above headcollars/harnassess etc with a normal lead or the flexi? thanks :)

oops forgot to write that he feeds on james beloved dry food and he does sit at roads after me saying it about fifty times lol

Anti pull Harnesses and headcollars should only be used with normal lead - but you can use a fixed (or tracking harness) with a flexi lead.

Adding to what the others have said already - be careful of asking him too many times to do something or he'll learn he doesn't have to do it until he's ready (and basically you're nagging ;))  Don't ask him to do something unless you are in a position to make him do it or you're pretty certain he WILL do it and make sure you've got his attention as well - if my dogs are snuffling in the undergrowth I call their name first and when they look then I will call them.  HTH

Okay, I have quite a few borders. I would recommend a Gentle Leader. We use Gentle Leaders for all our training. Always. Do a basic obedience class, if you have a border, you should really look into finding something to keep his mind keen, it's vital to their health.
This problem is definitly not unfixable. So don't worry, but get on it quickly, or you will soon have a dog that is too intelligent, as well as untrained. I would never suggest a border as a first dog, or even a third dog really. Most people underestimate them at some point, even I have with mine.
As a male, sniffing is going to be like that, he's going to want to go after every SINGLE pole/lampost/tree/shrub, and so on that he can see/smell.
By the way, everyone, Rydolph got his CD in obedience Sunday, as well as a World Dog Title, for qualifying in all of his first three trials.
Good luck with your problem,
RudyandMum
(You know, and Slip, Launch, Number...So on, hehe.)