The whole point is Lucyandmeg, that breeders should be breeding to the standard. What could have happened some years ago is that an otherwise very good dog which had poor ear carrage had its ears "Trained" to carry correctly. The dog then started to do a lot of winning and got well used at stud. The problem of poor ear carrage was passed on and so these puppies needed "Ear Training" and so the problem is enshrined within the breed.

Best wishes, John

Hi Lucyandmeg.
Of course you're right, whether a Sheltie has pricked or tipped ears won't affect its working ability, but at a beauty show the dogs are not there to be judged on their working ability but on how closely they match up to their breed standard.  I'm no Sheltie expert & my breed has pointy ears (thank heavens!), however breed Standards were drawn up to describe the points of a dog which made that dog a typical example of its breed & not of any other. Presumably, when the Sheltie standard was drawn up, the breed experts felt that tipped ears were more typical of the breed than pointed ears (which also "pointed" (sorry!) to some other breed used in its makeup in the dim & distant past). The size, shape & set of the ears has a great effect on the expression of any dog and can turn an otherwise typical example of a breed into one that looks very foreign in type.
Shelties are a numerically strong & competitive breed, so an obvious fault such as incorrect ears is soon going to put a dog out of serious contention for top awards.
It is exactly because so many people disguise this fault by various means and continue to breed from dogs with this fault  that so many faulty ears continue to be produced. One good thing is that breeding this fault is in no way harmful to the individual dog's health.
Phew, going to bed now - lot of big words in there :D

Wow, is this causing a lot of debate or what.  to answer the couple of questions put to me - I think the fruit gums were used the same as blu tack, to weight the ears over, but you dont have to panic if they get swallowed (I am not at all sure about blu tack taken internally)  and just want to add this is not only shelites, lots and lots of breeds do ear help - go look at any bunch of pugsarriving at a show - lots will have ear tapes on, to keep the ears button not rose.  And yes, lots of other little things (like tail carriage) are often encouraged to develop as specified by the breed standard.  I dont think any of these minor assistances are going to correct a seriously wrong fault, but they help when teething and growth start throwing things out of kilter.  And crackers, conditioner, blow drying etc all are used to bring the coat in line with what is required, they are small human helps to put the dog in the ring as it is expected to win - how many people actually show a poodle or cocker "au naturel"?  (they would be laughed out of the ring)/  and whilst they do not, in the strictest sense of the word, alter confirmation (ie structure) they do alter other things listed in the standard.
bye
Gwen

More and More poodles are being shown without being in the 'required' lion trim so things are changing and I don't keep my poodles in a lion trim either! However, correcting a conformation fault is not the same as giving your dog a bath!

Jesse

Im afraid that what you are saying is happening in alot of breeds, big breeders dogs arn't to the breed standerd so they change the standerd to suit their dogs (its a bit more complecated tho!)  Tiped ears stop the dirt from gong in the ears while the dog is working I think.  So having pricked ears would be minorly dangerous if the dog was out working.

Also Breeds are docked for a purpose, Aussie shepherds have them docked as they were getting broken while they were working and guarding breeds have docked tails so they could'nt be grabed by the tail and swung round by burgulars.  OES is status tho I think!!!!!

Rox

lol! tipped ears stop dirt going into the ears! if thats for real, its about as true as what Bulldog breeders say about the exsessive wrinkles and squashed in face helping their breed to hold a bull, and let the blood drain from the face! LOLOL! twaddle! its all about what looks fancy Im afraid. Same is said about ear cropping in fighting breeds. they say the short crop prevents ear damage!!! Errmmm, many many old pitdogs had full ears, some quite houndy, and they were Gr Ch's!! All asthetics!
Staffords, when the standard was 1st drawn up were allowed prick, half prick and rose ears, But because the rose ear was more pleasing to the eye, the other types were gradually dropped out. In fact now, the ears of the dogs are being bred so small and tight it is causing health problems ands the more extreme dogs do not have sufficent air circulation into the ear canals, leading to chronic infections etc!

OES isnt status Rox they used to live with the flock and just as lambs are docked to try and prevent fly strike so were OES. :) Gillian

Actually OES were docked to avoid paying tax!!!!!!!!

Jesse

It's true that many Shelties have prick ears (most are born tipped...teething is usually where the ears go up if not glued), however, many also have ears that tip too low.  I've had a few of each.  There are also many Shelties who never have to have their ears touched and are perfect.  It not only depends on genetics, but also their environment, including weather, stress, etc.  The breed standard is in place so breeders essentially have a goal to work towards.  If there were no specifications on ears, could you imagine how different they all would look?  As far as I know, there is no breed that has more than one type of acceptable ear type (other than croped vs. not cropped).  It would be impractical to change the standard to say prick ears, because as many go down or are perfect as do go up.  Also, regarding some earlier comments....yes prick ears and low hanging ears are faulty, however, could anyone honestly say that if they had a perfectly structured, colored, temperament, everything was perfect, except a prick ear, they would not breed that dog?  Ears are something you can help, whereas front angulation is not.  Some ears may never be perfect, but most dogs' ears have the ability to tip correctly with enough time. 
And Gina, my 7 month old Sheltie finished teething at about 6 months.  I had his ears glued all throughout teething and still do now.  One tends to go up without glue, and the other tends to go down, but they are definitely getting better.  My dog's breeder, who was breeder of the year in the US a few years back, has the top stud dog in the country, handled winners bitch at the nationals (I could go on), glues her dogs' ears.  Some are even 2 or 3 and still have their ears glued.  It's not something anyone tries to hide.  It's not surgically altering your dog, and if it were illegal, I'm sure the AKC would have put an end to it by now.  I say, Glue Away!

Gina

You say you love your dog and her pricked ears are rather cute - I think that's the best comment I've seen on this post so far. 

At risk of upsetting others I've always thought dog showing was the most useless and offensive reason for owning dogs. 
Dogs are living, breathing, feeling animals not specimens to show off to provide gratification for their owners. 
I have no problem with breeding to keep a breed true to type but who has the right to say its tail must be carried thus, the stance must be this, the tail must be docked, the ears must be clipped?
It seems pretty clear to me that if breeders can't breed a dog with a simulated 'docked' tail then the dog should have a tail.  If a breeder can't breed for ears that are 'tipped' then the dog naturally does not have 'tipped' ears and as for glueing them   .....!! 
Altering a dogs natural conformation is probably the most 'ugly' side of showing.  Dogs have been mans loyal partner for thousands of years and he is prepared to work for man to the end whether its working/guarding livestock, assisting the blind, deaf, handicapped, searching for missing people or by being a true companion.  IMO showing is degradation of the dog and about as purposeful as pinning butterflies on velvet boards in order to 'possess' something beautiful BUT they no longer have a butterfly just a specimen.

You love your dog, love it for what it is - pricked ears and all - she is just as nature intended her to be.

I love showing my dogs & they also love it too. It`s a hobby & like many enjoyable things in life, doesn`t need to be purposeful to enjoy it. Some people build aeroplanes, collect stamps, coins, go watch foreign films, all for the pleasure of it. Just because I show my dogs doesn`t mean I care or enjoy them any less than people who don`t show. It provides me with an opportunity to pass on what knowledge I have of my breed to others who take an interest in them. It also gives a lot of people who go to watch dog shows a great deal of pleasure just watching the dogs! I still love & care for my dogs unconditionally!

Christine, Spain.

Well said Christine, I think that just about sums up most of us that show.

Not forgetting, the pet people are getting a supply of puppies that come from someone who cares about what they are breeding and will have the dogs health checks done which can only benifit the breed as a whole.  There will also be the support from the breeder to these people. 

We have all seen on this board what happens when puppies are bought from an unrealiable source with no back up from the breeder.

Sandra

Hiya
Well I said if they weren't down today I would give up and they weren't so I gave up trying.  I do much prefer them up.  Then I found out she has CEA and to say I was gutted is an understatement I so didn't want this to happen when looking for a pup, parents are CEA checked as are grandmas etc. and they're all clear her litter sister is clear too.  I was so careful and I didn't rush into it or anything I am just so annoyed the litter wasn't tested as I found a lot of breeders didn't and loads of people assured me if both didn't parents have it it wasn't likely the pup would get it.  The vet said it was unlikely to affect her much her vision is poor but not that bad and it won't get worse, but it doesn't stop me feeling angry that my pup has it. 
gina

Sorry to hear she has CEA. Is there not a DNA test for it yet?

Jesse

I don't think so and if there was it would probably cost a fortune, I am more annoyed than upset really, as she is fine her eyesight isn't that bad and it won't get any worse apparently, it's just annoying to think it was hiding somewhere in her background.  I'd love to know where!

Gina

Gina, I am not an expert with CEA, but have been told in Border Collies they should be tested at 5-7 weeks and not again until they are around 2 years.  I believe that is because a false reading can show inbetween.  Have you only just had her tested?  Perhaps it is different with Shelties, but I would explore this a bit further.

Hopefully someone can come along with more experience on this.

So sorry for you if this is the case though.
Sandra

Edited to say - Both parents must have been carriers of CEA, although neither may have shown it themselves.

Oh really, thanks I'll look into it a bit more then as she is 6 1/2 months.
Gina

You can only get a "Clear" for CEA eye testing before around 10 weeks of age. After that the best you can get is "Go Normal" Rough Collies and Shelties are the worst affected with Smooth Collies slightly less affected and Border collies the best. It is generally accepted now that the situation is so bad in Roughs and Shelties that the gene pool of clear dogs is too small to be ever able to eradicate it. In most cases it is only a small area of vision which is impaired and the dog learns to look around the bad bit. At my eye testing sessions I can only think of a couple of people who now even test! The rest seem to just accept that that their dogs would fail anyway.

Some years ago a person started at the club. When we had our next eye testing session she booked an appointment. The following week she came to club and cancelled her appointment saying that she had spoken to her breeder and had been told not to bother. Since that time I know she has bred 3 litters from the bitch!!

Regards, John

Wish I had known that before as now it's in the KC book and on her pedigree so she'd be no good for showing.  It's a shame as I went for a pedigree to show, otherwise I would have got a rescue.

Gina

Gina, being CEA affected doesn't mean that Ember can't be shown.  But I must say that I've had all my pups eye tested before they are 8 weeks old for the past 20 years!!

Hi Val, good to see you here.

Fiona, No, thats not what I mean. Testing is the only way to deturmine unafected dogs AT THE MOMENT. Soon we may have other ways, DNA for example. At that stage it MAY be possible to do something and the more people try to breed unaffected dogs the more chance there will be. At the moment although we can find unaffected dogs we still dont know if they might be carriers but when dna tests get sorted that should be possible to deturmine It may be possible to breed carriers to clear to increase the size of the unaffected pool and slowly eradicate it that way.

Best wishes, John

Okay, thanks for that John.

Fiona

Hiya
oh right, it's a bit strange though isn't it as she isn't a good example of the breed if she has CEA.  I was told by several breeders that as long as the parents were tested it would be okay as many don't test because the testing places are quite a trek.  I love shelties but it's put me off having another.

Gina

Testing is carried out all over the country. The BVA panellists usually hold sessions at other surgeries apart from their own, breed clubs often hold them in conjunction with their open show, Game fairs often hold them and then there are individuals such as Polly and myself who organise them. Just about every one who has the best interests of their bred at heart can get to a testing session.

Remember, the breeders of today are entrusted with the future of their breed. The breeders of tomorrow will only be able to work with what you leave them and if the legacy you leave is blind deaf cripples what a terrible legacy that will be!

Breeding is the most important facet of dog ownership and if anyone cannot do it right then DON'T DO IT AT ALL! Excuses are just not acceptable.

Regards, John

Hi with border collies they should be tested for CEA by 6 weeks because after that it can be difficult to distinguish the CEA and give a false reading that way but at two years they are tested for PRA. If she is 6 1/2 months old I'm afraid she will always have CEA did they tell you what degree as there are varying degrees .As someone else has said both parents must have been carriers.Gillian

Hiya
It doesn't say a degree on the certificate, just says left > right temporal and the fundus is the one checked as having it whatever that means.  And theres the diagram.

Hi,

Cant give any advice on tipped ears.  Not into showing my dogs dont think any of them would conform to the breed standard.  Well certainly Benjamin would not with three legs.  Anyway each to their own.

But I did put my five into a show last summer in a fun day dog show.

Toby and Betty received a runner up for the best veteran

Charlie received a rosette for waggiest tail

Benjamin came second for best rescue

Poor Ellie my blenheim cav did not get anything at all.  So Aunty Betty 14 year Springer gave her one of her rosettes.

They are all on the kitchen wall and Im just so proud of them.

When I read the posts about showing all I can think of is the amount of time I spend cleaning horse muck off them after a good roll in the field behind us.

Sorry I know my posting is off the topic originally started but thought I would give my five a mention of their fun day out.

Sorry for going off topic a bit.

Tessa

Ice Queen:
OES are customary docked because years ago if a working dog had its tail docked the owner didn't have to pay something (?) - dog license maybe. Can't quite remember, but there was a perfectly valid reason. All the Spitz breeds have pricked ears &, in my experience only rarely have ear problems (2 in 25yrs for me). The Sheltie should have a sweet expression which you don't get with prick ears which give a sharper, dare I say, more intelligent & alert look.
JMO.

John, from what you have said, if someone has a litter of Rough Collies then, are you saying that it really is not worth having the puppies eye tested? Thanks.

Fiona

I would say its worth eyetesting as then you can at least try to find dogs and bitches that are unaffected for future generations. Gillian

hi Gina, really sorry to hear about the cea. in borders you should test after 6weeks but before 8,as after 8 they could "go normal" & be undectated. i presume it would be the same in the other "collie" breeds.
its a shame you have been misinformed about the need to test the puppies of a breed effected by this,no doubt not a mistake you would make again!!!