I think you have a point Phillippa. Attracting status symbol owners is surely bound to be an unwanted side-effect of high prices. It seems to go on in every walk of life - just look at designer clothes and flash cars. Personally I can't imagine why anyone would buy a garment or a car just because it has 'status', but people evidently do, and status and price seem to be a vicious (but profitable!) circle. Some say that if the buyer cannot afford the puppy purchace price, then they can't afford to keep the dog. That might be true without insurance, but as long as they are not going to be clobbered by an enormous vet bill, I reckon there are plently of people who couldn't easily spend £750 on a pup, but who would still provide an excellent home.

No controversy i am sure.

The question of puppy sales offsetting the cost of the hobby. I think it is fair enough that the money I recoup on some litters helps defray costs. If I did not breed I could not afford to go to the number of shows or keep the number of dogs I am able to because i do! I would keep two dogs and go to the odd exemption show.

What I was trying to say is that if we viewed dog breeding as a business then the costs of keeping and improving ones lines, would be like investing and upgrading plant in a factory, legitimate costs! Advertising and Trade shows are also legitimate costs in business!

Most Good/reputable breeders today are not people of means, most are housewives or retired people on limited income. In order to further their breeds progress/existence is it not fair that the cost of the puppies they sell can help defray some of their not inconsiderable costs? Yes we do it for the pleasure, but the hobby is still costing us money. There is no profit ina business sense.

I put all puppy sale money into an account and use it to pay for the dogs needs and for show entries. At the moment I am theoretically in the red by £800, and I haven't been to a show since LKA, and had a litter in August, which unfortunately had 3 pups and a ceaser, previous litter 18 months earlier, so money long since spent!

Last year I showed at a lot of Ch shows (for me that is)10, as I had a bitch that was winning well winning 5 CCs and her title. I showed two dogs, and I did about the same number of Open shows (including 2 champ shows without CCs).

This year I am planning to do no more than 6 and probably even fewer Open shows, as I have a doggy holiday arranged (The World show).

I don't know about other breeds but in mine the price of puppies is fairly standard, be they top breeder or new breeder, as they are likely to be of similar potential (very little breeding done by purely pet owners or puppy farmers). We had only 102 registrations in 2000, and most of us are hopeful that at least one of our meticulously planned and reared puppies finds a home with someone who might join us in the breed ring, and become a breeder exhibitor of the future, how else can the breed survive and go forward?

It is coming to the stage that only Puppy farmers can afford to breed if the good breeder cannot help defray their costs! How would the health and quality of our breeds be then. One only has to look at the popular breeds who have more than their share of those, and it is the breed lovers that have to pick up the pieces in breed rescue, and suffer being tarred with the same brush because of poor health in the breed population as a whole!

Hi Brainless,

That's fine by me. You are saying that you do make a bit of a profit on most litters, and use that money to defray your costs. Maybe I'm being overly literal, but to my ears that is a long way from the usual blanket statement about breeders losing money on breeding. We sometimes make it sound as if we are doing the puppy buyer some great favour by producing puppies for them at considerable financial and personal loss to ourselves. The truth is that most people who breed occassionally do so primarily because they want something themselves - and many happen to love rearing puppies too.

I agree that good breeders are not always monied today. (Were they ever? Some of the grand old ladies lived on what most of us would call shoestrings.) I don't think that there is anything wrong with subsidising a good breeding program. I do think that telling people how much money breeders lose by breeding is less than honest, and worse just not very believable. It is basically the problem of mixing a business outlook with a hobby outlook. We piously fold hands and say that we are hobby breeders, only doing it for the good of the breed etc .... but if someone dares to suggest that we might just make a bit of a profit, or even enjoy ourselves, then the business style income vs costs sheet is whipped out to prove otherwise. To my mind reality is somewhere in between. Small breeders do what they do because they enjoy it. Many of them make a small profit on most litters - with no corners cut - and that allows them to extend their enjoyment. But like most people with a hobby, they only do what they can afford to do. I know people who stopped breeding and cut the number of dogs back when a wife died or a husband retired, and I'll bet others do too. I'd hate to try living off breeding dogs, but must we try to convince the world that we are martyrs?

Very valid points. I think it is because we are often forced to try and show how we differ from Puppy farmers, as in the publics eye the term breeder is often used almost as an insult, a neccesary evil!

I certainly would earn more in a year doing a part time (no tax) job, than any profitable litter would make me (lot less work too), and it all goes back on the dogs, so I consider that a hobby. As a teenager i sold my surpluss rabbits to pay for their food!

There is also a point that something worthwhile must have a value, as if pups are too cheap, then the easy come easy go mentality could be encouraged. How many little mongrels are gotten free, and then abandoned at holiday time, as the cost of kenneling is too much, can always get another when we get back.

Yes this does also sometimes happen with pups bought for a goodly su,. The price of a Puppy is less than a good name brand TV or Music system. similar to things like Fridge Freezers or Cookers and Washers. My vaccum cleaner cost over £200. Oh yes another cost new vaccums, when the old ones die because of the haior, LOL! :D

No we are not martyrs, but we are frightened to death that we might have our hobby taken away by the likes of officious beurocrats who think we make money. A friend in our breed foolishly listed the sale of her only litter in her Tax return, not any profit but 7 times the purchase price, and got landed with a nice tax demand, and is now in debt to pay it!!!

I said what about your expenses, she said after she had already declared the 'Income' they didn't want to know. If she had an accountant, they would have owed her money, but she is a poor wife and mother, being kept by her husband!

I think you are spot on in saying that we all feel we have to show how we differ from puppy farmers, and that probably accounts for the shock, horror reaction when the word 'profit' is mentioned. But I don't think that we help ourselves by denying any profit from puppies, because I don't think many people believe breeders when they claim to be making a loss on litters. Why should they when the breeder is pocketing a cheque for £500, and has a dozen more little £500's running around? I wouldn't believe me under those circumstances! And I think that trying to explain how all those little £500s actually equal an overall loss only makes the breeder sound shifty and defensive. I don't really know what the good breeder could or should do to rehabilitate the reputation of breeders. Publicity I suppose, but as far as I can see the sort of publicity dog breeders do get (TV vet programmes and even the sort of coverage Crufts gets) only make things worse.

I do take the point about people valuing what they pay for, but you have sort of answered it yourself. Also some of the best homes I've found are with people who genuinely do not have much ready cash, and I'd hate to price those people out. I know all about hair killing the vacuum cleaner, if the dogs don't chew it apart first. Mine has a nice collection of nibbles. But then these are the dogs that once ate a tractor .... :-)

Your poor friend! Hadn't thought about the burocrats, especially these days when the high hied yins seem to think that banning things is a substitute for government.

Another thread entirely, but those of us living in towns and Suburbs, keeping our hobby low key in order to not fall foul of neighbours and councils. Even the breeding and sale of Dogs welfare bill allows some councils to determine breeders as commercial for selling any puppy, let alone making a profit! They deternine what they think is commercial. People are being made to apply for change of use if keeping a certain number of dogs. Owners of retired greyhounds being hounded by new neighbours for noise nuisance, greyhounds noisy, surely only at feeding time!

Yes I for one am definately defensive, but not with others who know what's what. also most of us want to discourage people for thinking breeding is a way to make a few bob and have no interest in furthering the breed, as there are far too many of those already!

Brainless, yes and those of us who live in the country probably should not think we are safe. After the Hunting with Dogs legislation was passed in Scotland, a few of my neighbours spent the evening fulminating over a bottle about 'toonies' and 'incomers' (forgetting that I'm an incomer here, if not a toonie :-) ), who move to the countryside in order to escape traffic, pollution and other nasties, but then have pink fits when dogs bark, sheep bleat, cows moo, and muck gets on the road. I can see the officious jobsworths from towns and suburbs putting on their wellies, loading emergency supplies in their rucksacks and mounting expeditions up long country lanes before much longer :-(.

Oh forgot, I Have three also rans, two of them Veterans. If I could have kept a puppy from each litter I have so far bred, I would now have 8 at home, possibly more, as I may have bred from some of those by now to continue that branch of the family! I haven't because I cannot afford to, so I keep one from each generation, and have more than one litter from each bitch in order to decide whcih direction to go based on her puppies from different sires! I can then tell where her strengths or weaknesses lie, and which Male lines suited her best, so breeding only the one litter in each generation would not help me formulate my breeding plans, and if trying to space a bitch may need a proving litter before she is too old, as I may not be able to keep a puppy until she is near the end of her breeding age!

something that most breeders also have to allow for is the costs of rehoming pps who return. There may be weeks/Months of Training and feeding before a suitable home is found, for the puppy or Mature adult who goes Free to the new home.

i breed and show a also work to pay for my dogs if there was such a profit in dogs i would not be driving round in an old g-reg car.Most of the money i get each week goes on my dogs and kids new bedding injections toys treats and show entries. Only after the dogs and kids have got what they want do i think of somethink for my self. Breeding pups is hard work sleepless nights feeding worming and the constant playing. sunday is visiting day at my house when youve got 7 pups sunday dinner is a sandwich. to me the money dosent come in to it the welfare of the mum and pups does and finding suitable homes with my breed you have to be very carefull

This post is not meant to imply that I believe breeders do make a profit BUT if they do so what ? Why should it only be classed as a hobby to breed and why should dogs not be priced to make money for the breeder ?? I do not think it is clear cut black and white that breeders do not ever make money from litters. One point however is if you take the hours put into raising a litter ready for sales and paid yourself £5 per hour that is 8 weeks x 40hrs x £5 = £1,600 in wages alone and I know the 40 hours per week I suggest is not even realistic as the breeder is on 24 hour call during that time. How many working people would work for nothing - I won't !!
Also how many of us "lay" people would be willing or have the experience to breed and raise a litter - it is not something I would EVER attempt to do. I expect to pay for my pup and if the breeder my pup comes from next week has made some money I really don't mind (the litter was 10 in size of healthy pups with no complications). I don't expect her to provide me with a pup at a loss for herself (although she possibly is ??). She may have made some money this litter but the next one might not go so smoothly.
The only way to gain an accurate cost for a pup is for EACH litter to be priced individually. The first litter being very expensive due to intial outlay for some items that might be used with subsequent litters (if you breed again), large easy litters cheaper etc etc. This of course is not a sensible way to go.
Nowadays the difference in price between ethical breeders pups and dealers pups is very little and unfortunatley the average man (or woman) on the street looking for a pet has no understanding of the corners that have more than likely been cut by the dealers. I had no idea of all the tests etc that are done until I started to look in on sites such as this.
I believe the best way forward to stopping dealers operating is education of the masses to the potential pitfalls of a purchase from "retail outlets". How this mass education is done and who is responsible is debatable - perhaps during the numerous vets programmes and Crufts coverage they should devote some time to this ??
I'm afraid I seem to have moved off topic a bit :)
Sara

Hi Sara, if a breeder said "I sometimes make a bit of a profit on my well reared pups. So what?", or "I enjoy having puppies, breed mostly to keep my own line going, and my well reared puppies also help to finance my entry at dog shows. So what?" or " "I make a bit of a profit on well reared litters that go well, because I need financial cover for one that may go badly. So what?", I'd applaud!

I still think that problems can occur if puppy prices in breed X rise rapidly over a short period, but on the whole I would not have the slightest problem with any of those responses. What I do find disconcerting is what I think has become a tendency to 'holier than thou' attitudes.

- "I always lose lots of money on my puppies" The PS that if you don't, you are unethical, ignorant, inexperienced, a puppy farmer or all of the above is questioned, implied, hinted at or even openly stated.

- "I do expensive X, Y & Z (although they are of questionable benefit at best)" PS as above if you don't.

- "I feed my puppies/dogs on this that or the other" PS as above if you don't.

- "I socialise my puppies/dogs in such and such a way" PS as above if you don't.

- "I do A, B & C to check out potential owners" PS as above if you don't.

- "I breed a litter every 5/3/2 years/yearly/ twice or thrice a year" PS if you breed more often you are unethical/a puppy farmer. Less often and you are ignorant/inexperienced.

The logical end point for that sort of thinking is ""I lost £xxx1 on my last litter. If you only lost £xxx0.50, you must be doing something wrong!" Which is absurd.

I could carry on for ages with imagined quotes to do with just about any aspect of breeding or dog ownership. I've heard or read most of them in reality at some time (not here I hasten to add). The one you almost never hear aloud (though in whispers it is deafening) is "Ms A, whose dogs are flavour of the month at present/is chairman of the committee/is judging me soon, always has puppies and breeds far too much" :D!

Being serious, you are right about education, and equally right to say that no one is taking responsibility for it. I don't know what the answer is - I'm certainly not convinced that the vet progams on TV are helpful. Maybe the internet is one way to go. By chance writing this post was interruped by a 'phone call from a man who got my name from this site. He first phoned about 3 weeks ago, asking if I had puppies. I don't, and don't have any planned but was able to put him on to someone else. He has provisionally booked a puppy from them but wants to talk about the breed, and to see what the dogs are like in the home setting, so he is coming along to be jumped on by my crew on Sunday. Yet if I did have pups, I'd probably remove my 'phone number from the site because anything that could be called advertising (never mind on the net!) is considered a to be a big no no in my breed. Which brings me back in a circle to saying that if we want to get rid of dealers, maybe ethical breeders need to be a bit more available, perhaps in terms of price, and certainly in terms of making themselves easier to find. And maybe, just maybe, we should try being a wee bit humbler too?

And after all that preaching about holier than thou attitudes, sermon mode definitely OFF :D

What is the problem if people make some money ? it doesn't automatically mean they breed inferior dogs. I accept at times disasters happen which can be very expensive but its swings and roundabouts. Why deny a profit is made when it has, no one admits it because it is frowned upon by those who consider themselves experts who of course only breed for the good of the breed or because they want a puppy for themselves. Come on people be realistic, some people do make money and breed wonderful dogs with the greatest care. The same as some breed terrible dogs and loose £s at the same time.
Ted

"some people do make money and breed wonderful dogs with the greatest care. The same as some breed terrible dogs and lose £s at the same time."

Thanks Ted - that covers a lot of what I've been trying to get at, but much more concisely than I managed.

I agree with the swings and roundabouts, I have 2 different breeds, Ist bitch Rottie, one litter, 9 pups, wonderful mum, one vet check after whelping, pups all went to good homes, all health checks done before mating, the stud fee the cost of one pup. 2nd bitch ( the love of my life) Akita, 1st litter, 9 pups, stud fee £400.00, Willow died during c-section 2 1/2 years old, 4 pups born dead, we hand reared the others, lost one at 2 weeks, other pups in vets on drips at two weeks old, vet bill £600.00 plus scan, plus special milk, special feeding bottles etc, we sold 3 pups, kept one, crashed the car on the motorway delivering one, £400.00 in damage to car. One other thing you cannot put a price on is the heartbreak that goes with it all. As Joan so rightly puts it you have to take the rough with the smooth
Lorraine

Great thread. Thanks for starting this discussion Sharon.

Funny this should be on the board.
I received a funny letter from the Inland Revenue.
When enquiring what it was all about they say I am running a business
'Dog Breeding'. They want me to complete allsorts of forms and will
fine me if I am late in completing these forms.
I have only bred one litter in my life!!!! This was last year,
well as you can imgaine I am shocked. I am now compiling all my costs
expenditure & income. I don't believe I made any profit from the one litter I had. (Probably a LOSS, is more like it!!)
But then I have been told that the tax office can take a very strict line and disallow any of the expenditure, just TAXING the income.
Anyone with any experience of this?
Can I offset some of my showing costs?
I am seeking professional advice on Monday.
One of their reasons for seeing me as running a business is I have
a WEB-SITE. Hence one of the reasons I have mailed admin to take me off the breeder info listing. I have now changed my website & some of it's content.

Yes, this happened to me a few weeks ago. They had got my name from Oscars Pet Food Breeders list. After about 4 phonecalls (I never actually filled in the forms), they rang me back, asked a couple of questions to confirm what I had said earlier (3 litters over 4 years and only 3 pups sold) and said absolutely fine, we're quite happy with that, don't worry any further.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth.

God I'd totally forgotton about Oscars dog food site.
I have e-mailed them to take me off their site (I don't feed their food anymore). Some of my details were incorrect too. Such as litter bred
date.
The chap that I spoke to said it's a business.
I have had 1 litter in the 13 years I've been showing.
I had 5 pups to home and then 3 of those were white.
So far not taking into consideration utility bills and other bits
(Such as showing, petrol for delivering pups etc)
I am already showing a loss.
I shall be going to an accountant for further advice.
(I think I'd have got the IR to write you a letter confirming what they
have said in the phone call).
Thanks for the info.

i have been wondering for some time about tax etc, seeing puppies come and go from certain breeders who i wouldn't recomend anyone to buy a puppy from, how does the tax thing work ?? should all puppy farmers etc be declaring their income through the tax office - would this get rid of all those irresponsible breeders ? would they bother if they had to fill in loads of forms ?? how can the inland revenue pick on someone who has had just one litter ?? it would be nice to see the i/r get something right for a change what does everyone think ??

Yes tax is supposed to be paid to the revenue. a certain person I know always reports puppy sales to the revenue when he knows they are puppy farming.

Hi,
I breed dogs and I do make small profit. I have to say that if you do everything to the best of your ability then you drastically cut your profit.

I can not think of a litter that I have produced so far that I have not bought/built or improved something in expectation.

I would say to anyone just producing a one off litter that they will not make money. They can not possibly buy all they need and make money, it is impossible. Also it will show in the quality of the pups if they scrimp on providing for their pups.

I think others are right, the ones that need watching are the puppy farmers who are turning out litters hand over fist. Another one to watch are boarding kennels that have a number of brood bitches. I know someone who works in a kennels and apparently the kennels shut at 6.00pm and open again at 7.00am countless bitch's are left to whelp unaided and some have gone into difficulty without assistance.

Othe rpeople to watch are successful stud dog owners. In recent years I have used 2 prominet stud dogs one has earned his owner £50,000 per year for the last 4 years and another owner had made £20,000 the first year and in the year I used the dog he had made £33,000. He told me this himself so it can not be disputed.

I would have to become a puppy farmer to even dream about making that sort of money. It is ridiculous.

Ian

Hi, not a single word in what you said that I'd disagree with :-)

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