"I know what your saying but I don't like it when some really don't agree with a topic and everyone gangs up on you!!"

Nor me.

As long as you express your views without becoming personal then the moderators will do their best to ensure this doesn't happen.

It might be worth checking the site search before you post though.

This subject has been done to death and unless you have something new and radical to say you are unlikely to change anyones view on this subject. People tend to be firmly entrenched on one side or the other.

Thanks for bringing this one up again Leigh :)

Julieann,
you're not the only one who doesn't agree with hunting, and before everyone says 'well you live in a city you don't understand' I lived in somerset for a while and rode horses on the quantocks regularly but never felt the need to chase a defenseless animal with a pack of dogs and then kill it when it could run no more.
I can understand the enjoyment in galloping hell for leather across country, thats what horses and the quantocks were made for!:) but foxes can be culled by shooting which is a lot quicker and surely more humane. Why can't hounds be trained to follow a scent which has been laid, surely that can be as enjoyable or is it actually the killing of the fox that the hunters really enjoy not the thrill of the chase?!
For a country of so called animal lovers we have a strange way of dealing with foxes which after all are another animal, I'm sure no one here would support dog fighting, badger baiting or even cock fighting so why is fox and deer hunting OK?

I don't think that hunting is really the major issue behind the march. It's more to do with an erosion of values and the government interfering in things it doesn't understand when there are more important matters they could be dealing with like the Health Service, Schools, Crime, Drugs, stopping Tony Blair having lots of holidays at our expense.

I hear that the Scottish Parliament is going to try and turn its attention to banning shooting next. So that's the economies of every community north of the central belt wiped out - including my own village. Not to mention the impact it will have on conservation.

I think that's why people should march. To save a whole way of life that is in danger of being stopped forever.

(I'm off my soapbox now)

when do the government ever understand any issue they deal with, but thats an entirely different topic.
Why are people so against change, just because some things are 'traditional' doesn't mean that they are right. I think a lot of poeple who live in the country need to realise that to survive we sometimes have to make changes

Julie

I'm not anti change, as long as the change is for useful purposes. But I do worry that without shooting the village in which I live (which is owned by a property developer in London) will suffer. We live at the edge of the Highlands and shooting/farming are the mainstays of our economy. Lose shooting and the land will become worthless. Tenants will have to leave their estate maintained cottages and the village will become full of those who commute to Aberdeen or Inverness or made up entirely of holiday cottages.

9th

Make that north and south of the central belt :-( :-(

Julie, I know this topic is old news now, but to put the record straight regarding your comments......"foxes can be culled by shooting which is quicker & surely more humane"?: well yes it can be quicker, but to get an accurate heart shot at a fox with a rifle over 100 yards or so is not easy and many many foxes are only half shot, and end their lives suffering a lingering painful death. I have killed a fox recently that had part of its jaw shot by someone presumably trying to shoot by aiming at his head. The poor thing was almost dead from starvation when I caught up with it. So no, I have to disagree with you when you suggest that shooting a fox is more humane. It is only a hu,ane method if you are an excellent shot, & as an army friend of mine once said, it would take the army's elite marksmen to accurately kill a fox in the dark with a rifle, and even with his lifetime of teaching marksmanship, he could not guarantee a heart/lung shot that would be instant.
Your comment "why can't hounds be trained to follow a scent thats been laid?" Well what would be the point of that? Here where I live, foxes are hunted as a method of vermin control. We are allowed on the farmland/moorland for that sole purpose, not to gallop about for the fun of it. Further more, hounds hunting a drag scent run much faster (its a fact) and it is then a dangerous sport that many people would not wish to participate in...I for one have been drag hunting once & it scared the life out of me!
I fully accept that everyone is entitled to their own opinion on all things, but feel its very important that true fact are made available to people so that they can base their opinions on them, rather than on ridiculous tales and urban myths that seem to spring up from people who have never actually had anything to do with a hunt in their life!(not suggesting this would happen on this well educated board of course!:D)

Sam, I can vouch for what you say - I used to shoot small bore target rifle with some of our Olympic team (woman can't take part in this particular sport at Olympic level- even in this day and age :-( ) And even for our Olympic team (who were capapble of wining medals in those days) a sitting fox at 100 yds was a difficult target (and we're talking paper ones that don't get up and walk off) - so where would that leave a real live fox? And shotguns don't have the 'umph' to despatch a fox - but will leave it generally wounded (and festering :-( )

Fran

Julian,I was saying you should feel free to say what you like,I admit to you though I have no strong feeling for or against Hunting I'm afraid I dont really understand the ins and outs of it but do remember going with the holcome hunt once when I was very young and just went for the ride,didnt think about it at all as it was a natural countryside sport as it has been for hundreds of years.

It's about time the media stopped hyping this as a Fox Hunting ban, the actual bill is about hunting with dogs, and once it's passed it will be interesting to see how long it takes before someone out walking with their dogs who then goes off and chase a rabbit or deer will be prosecuted.
Sam a firend of mine who is a crack shot, sits in the garden in the summer practicing on wasps flying round a beer glass & he hits them, refuses to shoot foxes with anything other then a rifle and exploding bullets, says it is the only way to make sure of a clean kill.

Hi Julieann,

I have far too much experience of being the sole defender of hunting with dogs in a vocal group of opponents to gang up on anyone :-)

My biggest gripe with a ban on hunting with dogs - apart from the badly drafted Scottish legislation - is that it is anti-libertarian. I wouldn't have put that at the top of the list a few years ago, but this government's authoritarianism is starting to scare me quite badly.

I tend to think that both sides of the fox hunting debate maybe get a shade overstated. I don't really believe that the countryside is going to fall apart if fox hunting ends: nor do I think that it is a particularly efficient way to control foxes. But I do think being hunted by a pack of hounds is no more - and probably less - cruel to the fox, than 'sanitised' methods of control. Sam is not exaggerating about the difficulty of killing a fox cleanly with a gun. Foxes make lousy targets. I also think hunting is often far kinder than nature's way of dealing with fox overpopulation. A badly manged fox is a pretty convincing argument for the hounds. I've had one unpleasant experience with one of the local hunts, that turned me into an anti for 24 hours, but I also know many very decent - and very 'ordinary' - people who hunt. A ban is going to hit this area economically. As far as most people around here, me included, are concerned the Scottish figures for the cost of a ban are a very interesting work of speculative fiction. That or plain old porkies.

Enough on foxes though - I ride like a badly tied sack of meal, so I'm eminently unqualified to comment :-). My form of hunting with dogs is self-propelled competitive coursing and lamping. Its mostly our own fault but many, maybe most people are not aware that by far the largest number of people who hunt with dogs do not ride horses or wear red coats. They are lurchermen, sighthound enthusiasts and terriermen. (Or in Blair’s cool Brittania, should that be lurcherpeople and terrierpeople? :D) I'm well convinced that there is an element of class prejudice in some of the calls for a ban, and if so, lurcher and terrier work should be empahasised as they are traditionally working class interests. With apologies to the fox hunters, when hunting with dogs is debated, it seems that some red faced MFH with a cravat and a hot spud in his mouth is always trotted out to argue the case for the defence. I'm sure the assorted Col MFHs are lovely people, but those dulcet tones always make me want to chew the nearest carpet, as I suspect that they turn a dozen waverers into anti with each and every syllable. Again we are to blame for allowing fox hunting to occupy 90% of the debate, but it also gets my goat when people tell me that I'm some sort of monster for coursing, then blithely reveal that actually haven't a clue about what happens at a coursing meet. And just to add insult to injury, on more than one occasion the accuser has pontificated through a mouthful of battery chicken!

"... freedom to hunt vermin in Scotland will prevail"

Sam does that mean I can set the hounds on some midlands mafia MSPs? :D

I have to say I am for hunting with hounds it is the fastest and quickest way to kill a fox! No one would disagree with setting up a mouse trap in their house and killing it (isn't this cruel to the mouse)!!! Trap a fox and it'll eat it's own leg to get out of the trap, which will cause gangrene and other infections which will cause the animal a lot of pain for many days to come!! Poison a fox and it'll be sick for days before dying a horrible death. Set a pack of dogs on it and it's dead in two minutes!! Which is the cruelist? Leaving it in pain for days or putting it out of it's misery. I have family in farming industry and these cause an awful lot of damage at an awful lot of expense. Where rats are the vermin of the city, foxes are the vermin in the countryside and they need a humane way of keeping their numbers down. You can shoot a fox but how do you know you've killed it!! You might think this posting's pretty extreme- I don't agree with all kinds of animal sports.

Something to think about- In Australia years ago they had a problem with the wild rabbit population- to solve this they introduced a disease called 'Myxomatosis' (sorry about the spelling), the rabbits died of a most horrible death!!! Unlike fox hunting!!!

I am against bloodsports, hunting, shooting etc when its done purely for sport and pleasure is just sick, and chasing a fox till it it almost dead from terror and exhaustion is just cruel ok, never mind how horrific the image of a single creature being torn to bits by a pack of howling, bloodthirsty dogs. I know that a lot of hunt riders are against the ban simply because they will not be able to have their gory fun anymore, famers will not let them ride across their land for no reason. As to the massive job losses in rural areas, well this is exaggerated, and how different is that anyway to huge job losses in cities when for example, a big factory closes down?
People say it is the country way of life, well there is no room anymore in a civilised, animal loving society for barbarity and cruelty just so people can follow a few traditions and have fun.
As for the fox needing culled, if it really does, then I suppose there just has to be a kinder way to do it than hunting it with loads of dogs, there has to be, or surely it would never have been banned in the first place?

Everyone has their own opinion! Can anyone name a quicker way of culling this animal, in less than a few minutes- which is all it takes for a dog to do it (probably not even minutes, considering one of them would probably break it's neck in a matter of seconds)! Like I said before the most humane way of controlling the wild rabbit population was for them to introduce a deadly disease which was a most prolonged horrible death!

The posters supporting a ban always show a fox being ripped apart by numerous dogs- when really at this stage the fox has already been killed (anything to make it look more gruesome therefore gathering more supporters)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just going off at a tangent, I suppose. One of our keepers did shoot a painfully thin three- legged fox last season - when he came to pick it up, the missing leg had been professionally stitched up, so someone had obviously released this wretched creature back into the wild. The fox would have endured probably weeks of stress in captivity before being released.

Enough said about differing values

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi bear,

I do agree with you on this one. Blood sports are horrible and I do live in the county so know what I am talking about.

The farmer on our farm goes around most weekends shooting the rabbits, the farmer up the hill from us has his own shoots using all sorts of birds. I just don't like it.

To me it is not just the fox ban subject etc, what gives us the right to go around killing foxes or anything else? Shorly mother nature does that for us? Humans are killing our world one way or another.

Putting an animal out of its missery is one thing but to go and chase an animal with dogs is sick. I don't care how long it takes to kill it?

There said it!! I know that we all have our own opions on this one so nothing I could say would change any ones mind nor mine!

Julieann

Good for you for having an opinion and for having the courage to make it known.

This discussion is turning out to be a very civilised and calm debate on a very emotive subject. If only those in power could behave more like us and less like my children :D

We can but hope!!

Fiona

Mattie said just about what I think yesterday!

To go around shooting rabbits is completely unnecessary as when you look at the food chain, mother nature takes care of rabbits it's the foxes though that need controlling because they are a top predator. Believe it or not I'm neither for or against this- it's one that usually I try to avoid because I can see the arguments either way I am for using dogs to kill them but against the 'sport' of it! I know I've posted messages which sound as though they are for it but like I said that's the other side of the argument. On the other hand- they need controlling but there has got to be much better ways of doing so rather than chasing the animal with dogs-in the name of 'sport'! Also we have to consider the 'type' of people who participate in these hunts?

Last night when I went to bed I put the telly on and there was actually a poll showing votes for and against it. People against were 67% and people for were 37%? I think it would be banned if it wasn't for the 37% containing (mainly) the side of society with the money and these who are probably friends with MP's etc- if you know what I mean (sorry I didn't have my children last night so I haven't actually been up long enough to remember the correct terminology).

If the 37% consisted mainly of working class then this would not be an issue at all!!!!!

Hi Kash,I know a lot of 'Working class' folk who go hunting,have horses,go shooting etc... so maybe the 37 percent are mixed

I know the 37% are mixed but the majority are not of working class and if these people were against fox hunting then like I said it wouldn't be an issue!!!! Working class do go hunting just not on the same scale :)

I agree mattie. The 'only gentry fox hunt' line belongs back in the days of The Irish RM. People without money for the rent don't ride to hounds (though they may have a lurcher), but the lass who cuts my hair does, as does a widowed nurse in the local hospital. Admittedly this area may be a bit unusual because a good part of the social life revolves around the Ride Outs, making the riding and horse owning population high, but I also know people in other areas with very modest incomes who hunt, and plenty of them who course. It won't be well off people who hunt that will be hardest hit by a ban in any case, nor will it just be kennelmen and huntsmen. Saddlers, livery stable workers, pub staff and even a friend of ours who has a JCB (and gets a good bit of work from the hunts) are despondent.

I'd really like to know what proportion of the 67% have made any effort to find out what happens at the events they want to ban for themselves, and what proportion have read the Burns Report. Saying "I don't like it and wouldn't do it myself" is one thing, but demanding a ban without personally investigating, or at the very least reading Burns is another. Burns leaves a lot of things up in the air 'for further investigation', but at least it makes an attempt to be fair. Anyway if you truly believe that people who hunt are blood crazed psychopaths, only there to see animals torn apart, then surely they should be locked up, not just stopped? Mr Blunkett is already making provision for that.

I'd also like to know what proportion of the 67% are vegans or real vegetarians (not the 'I'm a veggie but I eat chicken and fish and cheese and ...' variety). How anyone can call for a ban on hunting on the grounds that it is cruel unless they are willing to put their principles where their mouth isn't? Have meat eating antis any idea about modern farming methods or ever visited an abbatoir? Maybe some people have become so divorced from reality that they just don't realise the cellophane wrapped joint on the supermarket shelf used to be a pretty little calf with big soulful eyes, or that a skipping playful lamb is now the chop on their plate.

It must be pretty hard to demand a ban for hunting with dogs if you own a cat too. Cats account for over 80% (87% I think) of the wildlife killed by domestic animals, and anyone who has listened to Fluffy torture baby rabbits knows that cats do not kill with kindness.

Oh COME ON! Its in a cat's nature to hunt and kill, its the way they have always been and it can't be helped. Are you saying its in a man's nature to hunt and kill defenceless animals?
At least when cats hunt birds, mice etc, its just one against one and the prey has a chance to escape, ok the cat can be cruel and play with its catch, but what can you do about that? Shoot the cat? Or keep every cat in the world indoors living a life of misery? People don't have to hunt, its a choice they make, the cat has no choice because it goes on instinct which has been there for thousands of years.
I actually don't mind so much the dogs ripping into a fox if it dies in seconds, as you say, the quicker the death, the kinder it is, its the thought of the fox being chased for miles and the terror it feels until it is caught, and the sick pleasure that humans get just because they are enjoying their exciting ride across country and feeling like predators.
Maybe hunting with lurchers wouldnt be so bad as at least it would be over much quicker for the animal. As I have already said, there must be a more humane way to cull these animals, or hunting would not have been banned in the first place.

It's nature for a cat to hunt!!!!! It is better that the fox is killed in a matter of seconds, like I say it's the 'sport' part I don't understand!

Going slightly off the subject- Has anyone seen the Disney film 'The Fox and the Hound'- well at the beginning the vixen's being chased and she hides the fox cub, because she fears for his life and goes on running, eventually being killed and the poor cub's left an orphan- that's so sad (but it really does happen)!!!!!! And we call it 'sport'?:(

Bear, yes it is a in a cat's nature to hunt and kill. You say that keeping a cat indoors makes it miserable. At a gut level I agree, though I know quite a few cats living totally indoors, either because they are close to a road, or valuable or both, and they seem happy enough. But it is in a dog's nature to hunt and kill too. Moreover, unlike the cat, mankind has deliberately bred some dogs to increase their ability and instinct to hunt (as well as some that may want to hunt but are now badly designed for the job). If you think the cat is miserable when it can't follow it is instincts, don't you think the dog with a high prey drive might feel deprived as well?

Much is made of the pleasure people get out of hunting. I can't speak for fox hunters, but I do get pleasure from coursing. There is the exciting and competitive element, and the pleasure of having a dog or dogs at the peak of condition. There is also (for me anyway), pleasure in watching almost anything done superbly well, and fit coursing hounds are superb athletes. I think that most people would find watching salukis and deerhounds coursing in the Highlands exciting and marvel at the skill of these dogs, bred for other jobs though they are, running at full speed over steep hill, peat hag and knee deep heather. Finally, and maybe most important, I get intense pleasure from the very obvious joy the dogs have in hunting. I take no pleasure in a kill, though I don’t regret it or feel guilty about it either.

I couldn't agree that "there must be a more humane way to cull these animals, or hunting would not have been banned in the first place", because it suggests that the Scottish Parliament/Mr Blair/governments of any shade always act in a rational manner, and that the primary reason for the ban is cruelty.

Bear: suggest you get "The Hunting Gene" out from your local library!

"Are you saying its in a man's nature to hunt and kill defenceless animals?"

Bear, meant to make a comment on that earlier. I think it might be quite difficult to argue that hunting isn't present as a human instinct.

Continued here

I am rather fond of Free range rabbit (to eat of course) they are a pest species, and I know a few lurcher people that go lamping with their lurchers with the farmers blessing, and also in my Rabbit keeping days knew Ferret men that got called in to net rabbits, which all went for the table, or to the dogs!

Yes thats democracy for you ... maybe we would rather live in a non democratic society!

Caitlin, I don't think we would much like the sort of democracy where the majority view always prevailed. Representative democracy is supposed to bypass some of the disadvantages - from kneejerk legislation to lynch mobs - of that system.

And at no time in this democracy does the majority view always prevail. But the facts are, I am sorry, like it or lump it ... that in Scotland the overwhelming majority of the population agree with the view that animals should not be terrorised (my opinion and the opinion of others) to their death. If that majority view is placed before a parliament and the vote is taken in a civilised society that this is un uncivilised activity then the act is passed. I for one ... although I know the feeling on this board will ostricise me for it ... agree with that view. And I agree with that view despite having been brought up in the country. I have watched my fellow country people for years ... I recall as a child watching birds shot but left alive in cages to deter other birds .. not I think most of you will agree the most effective solution! I have walked for miles with my dogs lately and delighted in watching wild fox, badgers and all sorts of animals. The delight of wild animals is one I can never give up on and will never agree that watching them killed for sport (because ultimately that is really what it is) is one I can agree with. I am glad the Scottish Parliament agreed with me, though I agree the legislation may need to be tightened up on and like all legislation has its faults. I have good friends who hunt, and I remain good friends ... so I really don't want to argue here ... my opinion is I think a valid one shared widely ... and no amount of toing and froing here will change mine or yours. I just wanted to remind us all that democracy works in that way, and I am glad it has. I also want to remind people that not all country people love the hunt ... not all town people hate it. I might accept that it is less class ridden than in previous years ... many things are ... that doesn't make it automatically right that I should agree with it just because cruelty spreads across class!! But hey lets stay cool ... I continue to rescue dogs ... and continue to pass them on to people who agree with the hunt ... though I am a little biased because of the things I have witnessed in terms of the condition of ex working lurchers/greyhounds/salukis etc etc.

I have been hunting today...........just got home & fed the horses & about to light a fire. Thougt you might be interested in my little bit of research I did whilst following hounds.
The mounted field consisted of:
6 children (only one of whom was with their parent)
2 farriers
1 vet
5 farmers
1 bin man
3 builders
1 farm labourer
1 barmaid
2 housewives
1 MD of a manufacturing business
2 teachers
3 oap's

We killed 3 foxes...all of whom were mange ridden. One was totally bald bar its head & tail & was on its last legs.

I know someone who is a bin man and he s on really good wages,yet at one time it had social stigma attatched to the Job....are they called bin men now or is it refuse technition or something :)

refuse enviromental engineer Mattie . but as my dad always said you can be a dustman if you cant get another job .but you can be an educated one, it is not a heavy load to carry.I remembered it all my life and when my children were in school and thought of dropping out , I said it to them, it seemed to make them think twice.well they finished school anyway.sorry got sidetracked. I am not particularly for or against the hunt , but I will say this, my gran r.i.p. was nearly cleaned out when foxes killed all her laying hens , and ducks. she was not too upset I can tell you with the hunt.

Re Kash's first post
Don't forget that myxomatosis was introduced here when
the rabbit population was considered out of control. This
then went on to endanger pet rabbits. They died a horrible
slow death.
How long before some bright spark says something will have
to be done about all the foxes if this bill goes through.
Do we really want people who know nothing about the
countryside beyond visiting their local park deciding how
it should be managed?
JAQ

I agree totally leave the countryside to the countrymen they know best .

But there are those of us born and bred in the country ... and in Scotland in this instance ... who are extremely happy with the current situation. And don't forget there are many women in the country too.

It also put a lot of Rabbit meat producers out of business. Most rabbit is now imported. It is a very good meat, low in cholesterol, but many have a distaste for it after seeing so many dying with this disease.

This is said quite genuinely as I would like to know as I am not at all sure that what I think I know is right or not, but is coursing hare coursing?

Also do deerhounds chase deer until they are too tired to run any more and are then killed? If it is then it does sound abhorrent. I think I know a little about fox hunting as it is the major debate whenever the subject comes up with friends because it is the blood sport that is talked about but I know little about the deer side of things and am probably quite wrong.

Also my genuine comment on the people that Sam hunted with today if there are to be two "sorts" of people I think you have answered the question posters have been asking in that there does seem to be more of one sort of person that hunts than the other! although I do detest this sort of class divide but it does seem to be a major factor in fox hunting debates.

If I were to have a vote on whether hunting should be abolished I would try and learn as much as I could about it before voting but my instinct and animal lover feeling at the moment (and I believe instinct and love of animals is what people rely on mostly when thinking about hunting as we are only human and not all scholars and I cant see anything wrong in this) is to not like fox hunting at all and as I do not have to vote I shall carry on feeling this way as I love watching them playing outside my windows at night (couldnt care less about the mess they make of the rubbish sometimes) and I love seeing the cubs in my mum's garden growing and playing each year. This is just the view of someone like me who is just an everyday person not heavily involved in dog sports and I leave everyone to have their own opinions too. I hope I have got across what I am trying to say!!! Regards Gina.