My bitch had a litter of 4 girls.  2 pups were really small and by 3rd day the other 2 were twice the size so I took the other 2 to the vet early a.m. and discovered they had cleft pallets.  So I decided to let him put them down so they wouldn't suffer.

QUESTION:  1.  Since I am left with only 2 pups, does the sire's owners still have rights to a pup?
                 2.  The vet suggested that I fix my dam since she has the gene for this defect.  She had 2 previous litters with a
                      different stud and they were fine.  He said it's because the stud that she mated with this time must have                      gene as well and when they both have it, this usually occurs.  Should the stud be fixed as well?  We mated him with the daughter of the other dam and they all turned out o.k.

I would really appreciate some answers

Admin edit: terms of service

If the agreement was that the stud dog owner had pick of the litter as his fee then yes he is still entitled to a puppy - it is a risk you take when you opt for pick of the litter as the fee :-(
Cant comment on your other question as you need someone who knows more about genetics etc.
Sorry to hear of the loss of your pups :-(

The agreement was a pup or the money from the sale of a pup.  We had 2 litters with this stud.  Mom and daughter at the same time, so they will have access from one of the litters that produced 5 healthy pups, but should they get one from the unhealthy litter also.  I read somewhere that if the litter came out with only 2 pups, then they(the stud) either forfeit their rights this time or have a freebie the next time.  But if I fix her, there won't be a next time.

Where did you read about the 2 pups rule? Was it stipulated on your stud contract? If not, then it means nothing - you have to go by the agreement you made with the stud owner. Your bitch has had a litter to that stud, therefore the agreed stud fee is most definitely payable. The stud owner would have been well within his/her rights to demand the fee (sale value of one puppy in this instance) even if there had been no living puppies. Most won't - but that's their decision, and theirs only.

Sorry - the stud fee stands.

It depends on the wording of the Stud Agreement. Some do make allowance for a single puppy or very small litters, others don't.

I know zilch about bichons, but as far as I know cleft palate yet another genetic problem where the genetic mode is not fully understood. It can be multifactorial. And to add to the problem, inheritance probably varies with breed. Personally I would not want a pup from this litter if I owned the stud as they stand a high chance of being carriers.

i know you say you've read some where that if only two pup's are born the stud owner must forfeit there right's this time or wait till next,but if this was not in your agreement the stud owner should still get his pup/money,what would you of done if both your bitch's only had 2 in each litter,you could'nt expect the stud owner to have nothing,or even wait another year till next litter and then it may also happen again,then what!,and if you have bitch spayed no pup's at all.sorry to be so negative,but this is just one of those thing's you'll have to come to term's with,i myself would rather pay a stud fee and that be the end of it,and most of the time the price of a puppy is normally double the stud fee,so it is normally better to pay the stud at time of mating.but i still feel you should go with your original agreement.

I do tend to agree. This is always the problem when you take a
puppy instead of payment at service. The agreement between
you was that when pups were born you would give him a puppy
or money from puppy. Then you have to stand by this.
Unless of course the stud owner offered you half of the fee
back. But they dont have to do this at all.  Just chalk it up to experience
and future matings only go to studs that you pay on the day.
You could of lost them all and the stud owner would of still wanted
the price of a puppy. So you would of lost a lot more. Sorry to sound
so negative but this is what happens.
Nutkin

Thank you for all of your responses.  However, I wasn't complaining about paying or giving up a pup, I just wanted to know if anybody else had heard of that rule.  Geesh.

I'm still curious to know where you read this 'rule'? I've never come across it before ...
:)

Couldn't the cleft pallet be because of their two gene's and maybe these two dogs should not be bred together, but could be perfectly fine breeding your bitch to another dog?

I agree they still get pick of the litter.

That's what I'm trying to find out because the same stud was bred with my other bichon who is the daughter of my other bichon, and her  puppies are fine.

I'm trying to find the article that I read, it's somewhwere on the web.  I will post if I find it again. 

Cleft palate can also be caused by trauma during pregnancy, environmental factors ot nutritional deficiency. I certainly would not neuter either of the parents, just mate the bitch with a dog with no close-up common ancestors on a future occasion.

snomaes

"just mate the bitch with a dog with no close-up common ancestors "
Snomaes, I think that I would word that a little differently - I would say research all the ancestors behind your bitch, every dog for at least the last five generations (and even then things can crop up!) looking for the qualities and faults that they have produced problems before.  Then research what you think maybe a suitable male, looking for all the problems that his ancestors have produced too.  If the problems in their lines are similar or serious, then they will not make suitable mates.  A close mating can be very compatible if the problems in the lines are minor.  To me, that is what finding a compatible mate is all about.
Now some folks may well say that owners and breeders are not always honest with each other and own up to what their dogs and bitches produce.  And I might agree.  Which is exactly why breeding should be left to those with many years of experience in their chosen breed, or at the very least, under the guidance of an experienced and knowledgable mentor.  Knowing a pedigree isn't just knowing the names - it's knowing the dogs!!

I agree, it should have been worded "just mate the bitch with a dog with no close-up common ancestors TO THE DOG THAT SIRED THE PUPPIES WITH CLEFT PALATES"

Researching 5 generations of dogs on a dog that you may wish to use is no mean feat and even then it may not neccesarily tell you what you want to know. Most well-used stud dogs will produce many of the common genetic problems at some stage of their career, especially cleft palates. This does not mean they should not be used, it depends on the bitch that you wish to mate and whether she shares common ancestors which may carry the same genes.

Being realistic, do you think that in researching a dog's pedigree that you will really find the true story?
Due to ignorance and 'witch-hunts' in most breeds, many genetic problems are hidden due to the reason that people are embarrased to admit to having a problem with their dogs because they know that they will be possibly blamed for the problem.

I agree that breeding takes many years of practice but even very experienced breeders still produce the occasional litter full of genetic problems, unfortunately this is nature and it will always happen when you least expect it.

Snomaes

I agree with everyone here the stud owner still has the right to pick of litter or the money from the first sold puppy if thats what was agreed.
One of my dogs has just sired a litter which i took payment for & well actually there was 1 single male pup & the bitch had a c-section also this was the 2nd mating they had because the first time they brought her she didn't conceive so i told them they could have a free return service next time, & this is the result 1 puppy! Its her first litter at 4.5 years old as well.
I am a rather kind person & even though i don't have to i have offered them another mating for free in 1 years time when the bitch has recovered & if they do want to take the risk again, maybe next time everything will go like clockwork but nothing can ever be guarenteed when breeding.

how many puppies are born isn't just down to the sire - correct me if i'm wrong.
Your damn had 4 pups 2 with deformalities - but the agreed terms that you mated her seem to be price of pup or pup.Put this down to experience and maybe next time you breed, include in your contract price of pup or pup, if have more than 4 healthy puppies.
good luck xx

So you all know, I already told the owners they have rights to a puppy or the money from each litter (since I had 2 litters remember).  We found out the stud had cleft pallat in his line about 4or 5 generations back.  However, I bred him with my other Bichon (the daughter of my other Bichon from a previous mating) and all were fine.  So, is it environmental or is it hereditary?  The owner and I have talked and wonder if we should test it one more time (the 2 that had the cleft pallat litter) to see if it happens again, or should we just leave it alone?  I would hate for it to happen again, but if it was environmental, then nothing should happen, right?

Please, I don't want hate mail.  I just want advice.  That's why I'm here.

This condition if it was inherited at all has a complex mode of inheritance, so test mating will prove nothing.  You would need huge numbers of pups and litters to prove anything really.  Ypou have already found in the previous litter there were none with cleft palates, and this time two.  You might get none again next time, and it still wouldn't prove anything one way or another.

Folic acid fed in pregnancy seems to reduce this condition in breeds where they occur fairly often.  So could in fact the inheritance be with the ability to use this vitamin

Central Progressive Retinal Atrophy, an eye condition was proved to have a simple recessive mode of inheritance.  Only recently has it been didscovedred that although the  agreed mode of inheritance was correct, what was actually being inherited was an inability to produce enough vitamin C.  Susceptible dogs when fed large quanities of the vitamin did not develop the eye anomaly.

Genetics is very complex.

As the dog produced pups without this to both mother and daughter, I would not think it strongly inherited, but would avoid mating either bitch to a dog closely related to this stud.  It is the only practical thing to do.  In future generations I would avoid line breeding to the pair, and advise puppy buyers the same if they went on to become breeders.

Hi, I posted a reply early this morning but it didn`t come thru & I didn`t have time to write it out again but it more or less said what B/less has said, a repeat mating wouldn`t prove anything one way or the other so wouldn`t be worth doing.

Christine, Spain.

Can't remember where I read the article.  May have been the dog papers or one of the monthlies.  Will search for you.

It was Vitamin E absorbtion that was the problem, no C, Opps!!

Found the article on this link http://www.headsntails.de/cpra.htm

Argggh right! Thanks B/less, Ive got that info thanks. :)
The thing with Vit E is they`re unable to absorb it & it also causes other probs besides the pra. You had my heart skipping a beat for a mo there :D

Christine, Spain.

Hi B/less I would really like the info you have on cPRA & VitC. I haven`t seen this info & would love to read it. Could you send it me or put a link to where I can find it please? Thanks a lot :)

Christine, Spain.

Please note my reply to Christine, I meant to say Vitamin E not C!!!