Smoking on a dog forum ?? 

Well heres a question anyway with all these healthyer people who quite smoking and paying tax on the fags they smoke who is going to pay for the extra health care due to longer life spans, If smokers get cancer its due to chemical make up in there body my gran lived to the ripe age of 94  she smoked from age 15 that gives her a 79 year smoking career, it wouldnt have made the slightest differance if she smoked or not she died because her body was to old plain and simple.   As for seperated resturants this was tried in South Africa the impact to business over 6 months resulted in many "NON Smoking" establishments goign bankrupt why?   because non smoker groups will normaly have 1 / 2 member who smoke there for the smokers will not go to a establishment where they cant smoke and as such the business of the non smokers is lost.  They tried building partition walls beteen smoking and non smoking section however in order for waitrons to server food there needed to be a door guess what happenes when you open the door ? yes thats right the smoke filles the none smoking area :-)  so no win

I quit for my own health, and I have private health care so the tax from my cigarettes went on someone elses anyway :)

sorry  roswell but i find it totally outrageous that you profess that smoking is not unhealthy!!!!!!!   there is ABSOLUTE PROOF that smoking causes lung cancer, and does so in 20 % of smokers. there are some minor genetic factors, and a tiny minority of tobacco resistant people like your nan, but 90% of people with lung cancer are smokers. lung cancer kills more women than breast cancer. it causes heart disease and crippling emphysema asthma and bronchitis.
as for the supposed NHS burden, if less people smoked the cost of all the smoking related diseases would reduce, so the current  money spent on that would be spent on the (healthier) elderly population.
as for the restaurant thing , as you say having seperate ones would not work, then  a total ban must be considered, like in the USA. Fortunately it seems as though that will happen in this country too. I have, nt been able to find anywhere smoke free to celebrate my fortieth birthday this year (so it will be in my living room AGAIN! but i hope that if i make it to 50 there will eventually be somewhere!

If less people smoke, then where are the Government going to find the money lost in cigarette tax? Which is a vast amount annualy. Just a shame it doesn't all go to the NHS :(
I don't know where you live, but I know of a few nice restaurants around here which are non-smoking. I can give you their names if you wish? I'm in Sussex by the way.

liberty

thanks for letting me know about the non smoking restaurants...but i am afraid i live in the midlands
I have got some statistics for you from the hospital library......
in doctors records it has to be be recorded in your notes if your illness is related to your smoking. if a death is due to smoking it is supposed to be recorded on the death certificate, . if a disease is caused by passive smoking that is recorded , and statistics are kept of all of this , giving us the following.......

(the revenue from cigarette tax is £10 billion a year.)

the  direct cost to the nhs for smokers from smoking related illness is £2.5 billion a year.
34 million sick days/ year caused directly by smoking...approx £1.5 billion(Cost to employers)
disability benefits for smoking related disability. ....£2 billion
widows benefits for spouses of smokers £1. billion
cost to nhs to treat passive smoking related illness £2 billion.
social services to those disabled by smoking related illness .. equipment, stairlifts, carers, nursing homes etc £5 billion
figures are from varying sources!

( so....smokers DO pay more tax, but the cost of smoking to the country is more)
hope that answers your question.:)

( so sorry to disappoint any smokers who thought they were doing the rest of us a favour by paying all that fag tax, hehehe :D)

However that £10 billion a year does not go to the  NHS, does it ?
Nontheless,  I do hope you find a non-smoking restaurant to celebrate your 40th Birthday. It's my 40th too this year, and I shall be celebrating mine in our favourite restaurant, which is non-smoking .......... now hows that for irony (sp) :D

liberty :)

no you are right, it doesnt go to the nhs, but the money is more likely to be needed for the social services budget anyway, as the population would not necessarily have health problems, but as you rightly say would be older, and maybe in need of more social support, and receiving benefits for a longer time after retiring.
thanks for your good wishes.:)

Happy birthday Libs..... :)

Blimey you don't look 40.....

Geoff :)

Flipping heck!! I think some people here forget that smokers are actually people!
I smoke and drive so i guess i'm doubly guilty of polluting the air ;)

I havent forgotten that smokers are people...and i can assure you that if the health problems associated with smoking affected only the smokers themselves, then i would be much less adamant about this.
it would be great if the smoke stayed in the smoker and didnt come out!
the problem is that it affects the health of everyone who is exposed to that smoke, and how can anyone justify damaging other peoples health to keep up a social habit?
I think the main problem is that despite everything, many people do not believe that smoking is harmful, or that passive smoking is harmful. If people didnt smoke, i'd be out of a job....but id still prefer more people to stop.....at least they would live longer healthier lives....and i might stand a chance of living beyond 60, (or am i selfish)

>and how can anyone justify damaging other peoples health to keep up a social habit?

we can't really, but neither can drinkers, or gamblers, granted gamblers generally
only hurt themselves and their family/friends, and then it would have to be way
out of hand first.
drinking affects everyone, accidents due to drunken driving, abusive behaviour
both at home as well as in public, and just generally being an idiot,
not everyone is like that, but neither does every
smoker smoke in a smoke free zone, and most are considerate enough to ask non-smokers
in smoking zones if they mind or not, the answer is always no but I would not smoke if it
bothered them.

so looking at the ripe old age smokers live until, and considering the arguably small numbers
of smokers with serious illnesses, also considering the number of road accidents due to drunken
driving, odds are I'll live a healthy life while smoking until someone gets drunk and drives into me head
on down a one way street or something ridiculous.

please don't think I don't see the dangers, I do, and would discourage my kids form smoking,
but I won't beat myself up about it until I stop, and I certainly don't think smokers should be condemned.

if you can then please dig up statistics of second hand smoke causing serious illness
as well as drunken driving killing innocent people, I'd be willing to bet the latter outweighs the former

"if you can then please dig up statistics of second hand smoke causing serious illness"

http://bmj.com/cgi/content/full/315/7114/980

http://www.who.int/inf-pr-1998/en/pr98-29.html

I didn't want to search for stats since I've done this before, and didn't make the comment based
on a gut-feel, but here's a quick search on drunk driving, note I'm excluding other effects since those
are harder to find and much less accurate, since not everything is reported, I suppose the same
goes for drunk driving but much less so.

>According to data from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA),
>in 2000 America experienced the largest percentage
>increase in alcohol-related traffic deaths on record. 17,380 people were killed in
>alcohol-related crashes - an average of one every half-hour. 
>These deaths constituted approximately 41 percent of the 41,945 total traffic fatalities.

other years reveal similar statistics, yes thats america only, scary huh, one every half hour

>About three in every ten Americans will be involved in an alcohol-related
>crash at some time in their lives.  (NHTSA, 2001)

ouch

>In 2001, more than half a million people were injured in crashes
>where police reported that alcohol was present -- an average of
>one person injured approximately every 2 minutes. (Blincoe, Seay et al., 2002)

>Alcohol is closely linked with violence. 
>About 40 percent of all crimes (violent and non-violent) are committed
>under the influence of alcohol.  (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1998)

all quotes from www.madd.org, maybe later I'll search around for global stats.

So what are you trying to say, because drunks kill (more?) people than passive smoking that makes it ok ?

Edited to say I did a quick search on road death versus cigarette related death & found this......

http://www.adamanda.org/adam/death/

Smoke if you want ?

I'm not all that bothered so long as your smoke isn't inflicted on me ... which it isn't. :)

nope, on the contrary, just that smoking is the lesser evil.
also I wouldn't mind hearing/seeing more people saying/doing something
about the greater evils, and drunken driving and gambling were just examples
of people's social habits affecting others

Can I just add that , although some folks might not believe it , smoking IS legal ;) Drink driving , crack cocaine etc are all illegal

:D

Melody *cough* :D :D

I don't want to go into any politics, but that site doesn't appear to be very reliable.
it states that 1 million irish died due to the potato famine, I researched the topic
some years back and the sources I then considered trustworthy
strongly disagreed, and based on what I'd learnt I concurred.
I know this is a UK based forum, and I can understand that people
can be a little sensitive about issues like this, some people even feel guilty about things
their forefathers did, others deny it entirely,
I see it often in South Africa as well, anyway I really don't want
to go into this topic at all, or any other political issue on a dog forum.

for the sake of laying this to rest, I'll assume the stats are reliable, and believe that
the US loses nearly half a million of its +-350 million population annually to smoking.
and that said, to ME, smoking is the lesser evil, I've chosen my poison

Fair enough Taariq although the figures quoted for the Irish potato famine tally with the U.S. governments Environmental protection agency own figures in
this report http://www.epa.gov/history/topics/perspect/potato.htm but hey they're not Irish are they ! :)

Like you I'm not getting into this any further, each to their own ! :)

Hi Fablab, on alcohol vs tobacco see http://www3.who.int/whosis/alcohol/alcohol_about_us.cfm?path=whosis,alcohol,alcohol_about&language=english :)

"but hey they're not Irish are they ! :D "

The potato famine is arguably even more of a political (vs dispassionately historical) issue in the US than it is in Ireland - viz the row about teaching it as part of Holocaust courses in schools in many US states. (It hit the headlines in 1996 when George Pataki Governor of New York claimed that the famine was deliberate genocide.)

120,000 a year die of smoking related illness. thats not a "small figure" by anyones imagination.
can anyone let me know the figures for drink driving accidents? is it really as much as 120 ,000?
dont get me wrong i abhorr drink driving and suffered bereavement myself due to this very thing, but id honestly be shocked if 120 000 people a year were killed( still doesnt excuse it like i said and emphasise 100%)

Sorry i fail to see where i said smoking wasnt unhealthy  i simply stated its only a a contriduting factor,  howmany people living next to a nuclear reactor or working in one get cancer and how many of there dogs die permeturely ?  probably more than the local smokers but the goverment wont tell you that i know of 2 people within the distance of 2 houses dying in there 20s from Cancer very rare blood cancer  odds on that happening probably about the same chances as me wiining the lottery and being struck by lightning the day i collect my winnings,  fact of life  were all goign to die if smoking makes us happy let us,  if your son / daughter took up a habit would you chastise them for choosing smoking of thank them for not choosing crack cocain?  i know my choice

<<if your son/daughter took up a habit would you chastise them for choosing smoking or thank them for not choosing crack cocaine?>>

I would be disappointed he was as weak-willed as I was to become an addict. I would hope he was better than me. It would be my failing.

I've never smoked, however my fiancee has since he was 14 (we are both 22).  He says he wants to give up, but he's been saying that for 3yrs, so it's hard to have faith that he will.  I try to avoid talking about smoking now as even if I'm making coversation he bites my head off for 'having a go' at him.  He takes it personally if I talk about my nan who died from emphasiama (sp?) from smoking, well, sorry, but she was my nan and I don't see why I should not talk about her cuz he's tetchy from nicotine withdrawl!  If I say nothing, he says that I'm not supporting his giving-up, so what is the solution?!  I've managed to practically stop an 11yr eating disorder, so I guess I don't have much time for smoker's who claim they just can't stop.

MW

pinklillies i have been to my doctor before about wanting to stop smoking and he laughed at me and said "stop then2, i asked him if there was anything he could do to help and he said no...this was of course before i needed surgery so will ask him again tomorrow about this while i'm there, thanks for the help i never knew anything like that existed. :)

gina..well done to you, hope you can keep it up..your doing really well, i will see what doctor says tomorrow as i take a lot of medication for my back, is it ok to use these patches with medication? if it is i will get some, i have tried the normal patches b4 but not the 24hr ones...thanks :)

Cool

SO theres the figures we generate £10 Billion a year so if every smoker stopped as of tomorrow morning where you going to get the money to help the people who will still be ill ?  what you going to blaim the cancer on when theres no smokers ?  if the goverment wanted to stop smoking it could in one easy step  make it illegal !  why wont they ? the same reason they wont stop drink driving by making alcohol illegal THEY MAKE TO MUCH MONEY ON IT !!!   you think the goverment give a dam about peoples health ?  the environment? what rubbish  how does adding 3p a liter tax on petrol save the environment what they planning on doing buying a new one ?   simple fact we are a sustainable source of revenue, we create a health economy why on earth would a politician want to change that after all it wont matter if the world self combusts or all the human die of cancer we elect these people to manage the capitalistic sociaty we have created like it or not your part of it and its part of our lives your other option is to check out of society buy a plot of land keep your dogs and there bloodlines in ignorent bliss and grow your own food, make an air partical purifier and life will be rosey.

We live in a democracy we voted for a democracy this gives us individual rights like the freedom of choice i choose to smoke so im choosing to die of what ever illness kills me or any fait i may fall to. Reallity is if i get hit by a buss tomorrow morning will it be because smoking contributed to it  i think not.  Heres a nice idea i choose to own a staffy why ? because i can and i want to, i choose to wear different cloths to my dad and i choose to work instead of sit watching tv all day, I choose my life and the decisions i make are educated  make your choice imagen if tomrrow morning the only dogs you were allowed to own were poodles what would everyone say to that ?  reality is you have the choice of standing next to a smoker or not you can choose to go to a non smoking pub, you can choose what you want welcome to the year 2004 make your choices.

It's also handy for the Govt that smoking and alcohol kill off people before they get too old.

The second biggest problem that Aneurin Bevan didn't foresee is the increase in the elderly population since 1948. (The biggest one was the exponential increase in expensive medical procedures. He thought that the NHS would make people healthier so that it would be used less as time went on). Bevan did worry about creating a "dependency culture" and tried to prevent it happening, but failed. He would almost certainly have been horrified to think that his creation along with other changes in society would lead to many people assuming that the State not the family should care for the old and disabled. The net result is that the NHS / Welfare State is a horrific great gobbling black hole that no politician can see a way around or out of, and that they dare not ever speak the truth about if they want to get elected.

My own personal bugbear about the anti-smoking lobby is alcohol. Politicians and people go on and on about smoking (and drugs), but alcohol causes an enormous number of pereventable deaths each year and I've never known of anyone who beat someone up or caused a car crash under the influence of cigarettes.

As for 'democracy', well an increasingly small npercentage of us vote our rulers in, but ALL of the wannabe rulers who stand for election seem to forget what the word "freedom" means a bit more each year!

im sorry your gp was so unhelpful...im afraid many leave a lot to be desired, and i hope that you find someone! :)

Nicotine patches & gum etc etc.. are all encouraged by the government to KEEP you addicted to nicotine, they can't afford you to stop smoking....

Geoff :)

One way to keep a smoker smoking is to try & tell him/her to stop....

Geoff :)

Smoking is bad for you full stop but so are many other things that people do its just smoking is such an emotive subject for lots of people because they have seen loved ones dying of related diseases.
Quoting statistics at smokers does nothing they all know its bad for them as I know going down the pub for a drink tonight is bad for me because inevitably it won't be in moderation, but the fact is people enjoy their vices, my wife always said when she smoked I won't give up because I enjoy it but then she started jogging started getting fitter and smoking no longer fitted in with what she wanted and she quit overnight.

Steve

Sorry but i forgot to mention one stat that i would also like, what is the cost of policing for "Smoking related incidents"  compaired to "Alcohol related instances" ?  its also been noted that smoking isnt only a habbit its a life style, research has found that smokers are naturaly a more relaxed and problem solving individual they found that in a situation of massive catrastophe (spelling?)  the smokers and ex smokers were more likely to take a step back have a think of the situation and possible course of action, non smokers were more likely to panic and worsen the situation,  there are stats to prove that when the twin towers fell the increase in sales of cigerets increased ... bang went the hard push for stopping smoking

< its also been noted that smoking isnt only a habbit its a life style, research has found that smokers are naturaly a more relaxed and problem solving individual they found that in a situation of massive catrastophe (spelling?)  the smokers and ex smokers were more likely to take a step back have a think of the situation and possible course of action, non smokers were more likely to panic and worsen the situation>

I would like to read this research, can you please post references?

The point of the original post seems to have become lost in the debate.

Fact: Dogs that live in a smoking household have 2.5 times more chance of dying from cancer than in a non-smoking household. I have the references for this research and can post it if anyone would like to see it.

Everyone has the freedom of choice whether to smoke or not, dogs (cats, other pets and children!) do not.

snomaes