I wonder if anyone could tell me where to get...if they exsist....Hip Scores for SBT...I am interested in seeing what the results are and who - what lines etc have good hip scores. I know lots test the for eyes. But I am interested in  knowing in Hips.

Karen

Hi - I know the Breed Mean Score is 13... You could perhaps ask the KC for a list?

Only 22 dogs have been scored so it may not be worth your efforts, don't know why the Staffi breeders don't score, does anyone else?

I have had my Male hip scored, cant say the exact score off hand, but it was very low, Perfect hips!. Not that I had any doubts but I beleive it should be done, if we all did it we would know for sure if the breed is getting problems. One problem with scoring percentages is they are not particually accurate. Many x-rays are not actaully submitted if they are obviously very poor! Bad practice, but it happens. so there are more bad hips out there than we know about. All the more reason to look for tested stock. I think Hip Dysplasia will become more of an issue for the Stafford as it becomes heavier and more bully, dogs are reaching their mature size and weight much earlier these days, and it is bound to put a strain on the skeletal system.
I will shortly be getting his eyes tested as well, and have also had him tested for the metabolic defect the breed is suffering from, even tho I know he has none of the blood of the affected lines. I want to be able to declare him as healthy as I possibly can, and would not consider using him to stud if he were not 100%

Im wondering if you really should have your staffords hip and eye tested even if you have no intention of breeding from them....  ?

Thanks

Donna and charliex

I knew there weren't a lot tested but I didn't know it was that low. Thanks JackieH, I do find it odd though, I mean even if we don't have a problem yet (although who knows with so few tested) surely the way to PREVENT a problem is to start testing now.

(I have emailed the KC for the results.)
Karen

Hi Karen
I think the thing is as we do not have a problem in the breed at the moment then why risk the aneasetic for thie hip scoring. With any aneasetic there is always a risk. At the moment the only recommended health check for the staffs is the eye tests - all ours are done. With Bordeaux there can be a HD problem in the breed so we do take the risk and get our dogs scored because we would only breed from a dog with good hips AND also if there was a problem with the hips we would be prepared for it at a later date. Thankfully our dogs hip scores are fine.
Also as so few staffs have been hipscored it is not a very reliable breed average.
Don't get me wrong if all of a sudden there was a problem starting to arise within the breed with HD I would be the first to get them scored but while not a problem in the breed I would not take the risk.

Karen
if you want to talk to anyone who does this then Juanita Crawford of South Africa(breeder/exhibitor/judge ) ofCrossbow staffords does hip score. Maybe you could pick her brains on this
Have a look here
http://staffords.50megs.com/Abby.htm

I see that reasoning and agree with that now you've said it Staffie Thanks :)

Ta Lel,  will contact her it's regarding something about my last (very much missed) Staffie bitch Gypsy,  something I am looking into.

Thanks All, Karen

One of the 22 that have been scored was 23 - now of the thousands of Staffies out there if from a mere 22 one was 23 the lowest score was 7 and the mean score was 13, I'm not sure I would think that you didn't have a problem. Could be that the very worse were scored, but I doubt that, don't you. Most people who think their dog had a hip problem would not have X-rays done for scoring but for diagnoses.

My breed has a mean scores also 13 and Elkhound numbers are counted in the lower hundreds not thousands, but we think that scoring is necessary to the breeds health. Not trying to get at the Staffordshire breeders but I do wonder why they feel as they do, do Staffies have a special problem with anaesthetic as some sight hounds do.

We have the same mean score too.  No point in shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted!!!  If Staffs really don't have any problems with hips surely by scoring the breeders can make sure it stays that way.  It only needs a few popular stud dogs to have poor hips and then suddenly your getting dysplasia.  Also with so fe scored how can anyone say there isn;t a problem.

Siberian Huskies have lovely low scores as a rule, but the breeders still score, as I am sure they want to keep it that way.  The breeds like Goldens, Labs and GSD show little overall improvement, because many are just bred without taking hips into account, even though scores are improveing graduaolly in families where scoring has been ongoing for generations, with the odd disheartening glitch of course.

I would say the ones that have been scored were probably suspected of a problem or maybe the owners have known a staff with a problem??
I personally know of no stafford with a problem and i know of alot of staffs.
The same could be said for a Yorkshire Terrier - who are we to know ther is not a problem if they are not scored??? None of us have xray vision? Everything that you have all said regarding why we "should" score a staffie "could" be said about every breed from a yorkie to a st Bernard don't you think??? Surely that would be alot of dogs having unnecessary aneasetics? IF I were to hear of a fair few cases of HD in staffs and our BREED CLUB, who get all the stats., felt it a necessary health test due to a breed problem or even suspected problem then of course I would take note of this and score my dogs asap!
Staffs as with other bully breeds are reccomended to have Rappinavet aneasetic :-)

I agree with you I do beleieve that all breeds should be hip scored.  It is traditionally been considered to be a problem of large breeds, but going on the range of scores in the low numbers of Shelties and CKCS that have been scored it seems to occur in all sizes.

Modern anasthetics are pretty safe, and of course the Hipsw can be done on non breeding dogs when they are under for neutering, and breeding animals may well face anasthesia at some point.

never heard of Staffords needing Rapinovet (propofol) Greyhounds yes) Nor bully breeds, bar the KC bulldog, who needs to have as quicker recovery as possible as they can die on recovery due to their deformed airways.
Rapinovet would be the Anaesthetic induction agent of choice as it is rapidly removed from the body via thte kidneys, and not stored in muscle as Thiopentone is. This is why we do not use Thio on Greyhounds as they have a low bodyfat/high muscle ratio.
Id only say Rapinovet is the drug of choice in a fit stripped out stafford. the average Staff I see is generally under muscled and overweight.
When I had my male hip scored I did opt for rapinovet as he was in fit stripped condition, otherwise Id have gone for Thio.
Although Rapinovet offers a speedier recovery time it has its dangers also, induction apnoea is one, wher the dog stops breathing when 1st injected, this is not usually serious, but I have seen it go wrong.

Oh hear we go again. At every chance you need to bring in your "stripped" staffs and how most staffs now are overweight etc. For Gods sake you are boring people to tears! Please change the subject. We all get the point you like your dogs to resemble whippets. Some of us dont. Live and let live and just please change your record!
My vet, who is the best vet we have ever had, reccomends Rapinavet and so does the local vet and so did our vets back in the Midlands for the Staffs and the Bordeaux.
Maybe your vet is as behind the times in his attitudes to aneasetics as you are with you idea of the breed standard :D
Look forward to chatting to you over a subject when you dont have to drag up the way you think a staff should be - oh, that will be never I guess :-)

nice to see you had to have a go! I was pointing out why we use certain Aneasthetic agents. tell you what, when you have worked in the veterinary field for 15 plus years, and care more about animal health than ribbons then fine come have a go at me. You are an internet cur. well, I have nothing more to say to you here, but I go to the KC shows, and you will recognise my dog no problem. You want to have a pop again you come do it to my face. EASBTC feb open show. Ill be there.
I dont think I am bioring people to tears, I just have an opinion, same as you. I also run an obesity clinic in the surgery I work at, and beleive you me, it is NOT just the stafford that is suffering but some 70% of the canine population. The bull breeds tend to suffer more because people mistake fat for muscle in pure ignorance.

Shame to see you have wasted your money supporting a dog show where you feel so negatively about the judges and show staffs, also when you are so sure your dog is nothing like what is required in the ring??? Bit of a two faced decision if you ask me :D
I'll see if the show will award you with a medal while you are there for you caring about the health more than a ribbon - strange your taking your dog to see whether you can win one of those dreaded ribbons!
Excuse my ignorance but please oh wise one explain to me what an internet cur is?
Nice to see you walk the walk as well as talk the talk but dare say that is cause you have to train your dogs for such a purpose ;-)
Not every person using this board is interested in Staffs as you are not interested in their breeds. They do not ram what they like or dislike about their own breeds down you throat on every single topic they answer, but sadly you seem to do just that.

last time I speak to you on this board, I would like to have a name and address, or email. I am not going to have you suggest that I train my dogs for anything other than fitness and weightpulls. I will gladly have my dogs inspected,and not a mark will be found on them. If you wish to go down this route, I will then see you in court. I have all this on record if need be.
I go to the show for your information, to campaign a healthier version of the breed,. you cannot complain if you do not put up the alternatives.
An internet cur is a coward who "attacks" behind the keyboard.
My E mail addy is vbr30@hotmail.com if you wish to discuss this further.
I also have contacted admin about this situation previously, and stated my seriousness in this matter.

You have to train your dogs to be tough and hard for the wieght pulls what do you think I meant???
Your gonna have a busy time in court cause I seem to remember you threatening to take Happystaffy to court not long ago on another thread.
On this board people do have different opinions and friction does occur but i have never seen another member challage the other to a dual at a show which is what you have implied :-(

I hate myself for replying but YES I am asking you to make your suggestions to my face, I wonder if you are so quick to slag people of to their faces. Maybe others on this board are more inclinded to take hurt to some of the comments thrown at them, I do not, and prefer to sort out diffences face to face, not hiding behind my keyboard. now youhave my email address, as I said, you want to discuss this further, then mail me.
OOOHH and FYI, I have posted many times on here and not had to bring up my dogs conditioning. Only if it is relevent to my post, in this case it was to my choice of GA.
I know exactly what YOU and "happystaffy were trying to imply. I have had several neutral people read over the postings and they also agree with what I feel.
I see you do not have the courage of your convictions and offer me an address to send any legal corispondence.
I did not need to follow up my intentions of legal advice as the previous threads where removed.
Others also may not have responded with my "anger/seriousness" because they probably have not had the insinuations I have had to put up with.

If you like to sort things out face to face then why do you join a discussion forum that is over the "internet". Differences occur on a discussion forum so if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen. Trust me when I have anything important to say I do say it face to face but I hardly think a discussion on a dog board to be an important matter. I have got a life :-)
I have been a member on this board for well over a year and have both learnt alot and hopefully helped alot. During that time I can honestly say I have never found another member to be as over-reactive and defensive as you. Maybe that is your way?
You know nothing what we were implying, and even if anyone thought anything people have their own opinions, I know you have yours :rolleyes:

I will be seeking help and advise on this matter in due course.

Bring it on - It is your paranoia not any accusations :-(

You know what Staffie,
You really are very rude,
Staffmad offers up a professional answer (that dosnt tally with yours) and you launch into a personal attack on her.
I would rather listen to her devotion of her chosen breed and concern for health matters and her interesting personal and professional opinion regarding dogs over and over,  than listen to your spitefull drivel.
I dont blame her for being offended,who wouldnt!!!. In a few posts you have attacked her proffesional  dog health knowledge , her dog husbandry and herself.
ohh..and by the way you have made yourself look petty and imature in the process.

The fact that Staffmad has gone to such efforts to make sure her future stud is fit and healthy and worthy of passing on his blood to future generations, shows commitment and love of the animal...staffmad i applaude you.
The fact that she campagnies in the show ring an advocates at any chance the importance of fitness, shows commitment an love for the animal.
Ribbons and bows obviously mean nothing to her, but if she can get one judge to place her dog then she has hope, hope to raize the awareness of a fit and healthy animal....that takes strength and love of the breed.
You may be fed up with seeing her post on it... dont answer..simple eh, but if she gets one person to think on and put the health of an animal, above ribbons and bows....then she has done a good thing for the breed.
You owe Staffmad an appology. But there are dog lovers and some just like to come onto a public forum and be the loudest voice...shame eh....

Staffmad would be a big loss to this forum. You??????

blessings
The Wicked Witch of the south

Welcome to the forum Wicked Witch considering you only joined yesterday and your only 2 posts have been to me
By the way on here you only have to post a post once :-)
Will be interesting to see your input on other topics :D
Have a nice day.

Sorry to butt in but as I see it Staffmad only mentioned her dogs physical conditioning in answer to the question about her informed choice of aneasthetic which made it relevant!
k

Quote  "the average Staff I see is generally under muscled and overweight."
Not just on this thread :-)

The kennel club will give you a full list of all of a particular breed that has been scored, including their parents names, for a mere £7 ;)
(wouldn't be free would it)  They can either e mail it to you, or send it on a disc. I know as I got the Great Dane one just before Christmas :D

Grace

I think the thing is as we do not have a problem in the breed at the moment

Now, where have I heard that before?  It is the classic "excuse" for not testing for something. 

My standard reply is: How do you know you don't have a problem if you don't test?  It is possibly that affected dogs are mostly pets and they are treated rather than scored.  Unless breeders test their stock they cannot know for sure whether a breed has a problem or whether it is just the poor pet owners who are picking up the pieces.  Scoring 22 dogs is hardly a wide sample of the breed.

Something came to mind while I was looking at the list and typing this.  Greyhounds are supposely renowned for having good hips and few health problems (apart from all the problems we hear about in retired racing hounds such as arthritis, bad teeth, poor digestive systems etc).  I can't even find them listed on the KC/BVA list as being hip scored so unless I have missed them they have had under ten tested.

Now, where have I heard that before?  It is the classic "excuse" for not testing for something.

From Great Dane breeders perhaps Christine? ;)

I would personally love to see a few more health checks almost enforced  ie hips , eyes for all breeds. It may be argued that this would encourage more puppy farmers who knows. It may show the divide even greater between reputable breeders etc and not again I am not sure.

One thing is it could not harm the breed surely by doing the testing.

Pam

Same saying echoes round the world in all breeds ;) Of course no breed has a problem with anything till it just so happens to occur in the first one! Couldn`t happen here could it???? till it happens to you that is!!!!

Christine, Spain.

If you are not going to breed you probably dont need to, but it would be of service to the breed to do so IMO, as it would show up any potential problems in a line, and give a heads up to the breeder of that dog, if you still had contact with them.

Agree with that, if we can get people to score non breeding stock we will begin to know, not only the scores of the breeding stock but what they produce, that is the main requirement that a particular dog or bitch produces low scoring protégée, and if that sort of information is available then it helps breeders to chose the best possible sire for the bitch.

"I think the thing is as we do not have a problem in the breed at the moment"

When I first went into my breed, "everyone" said that. 30 yrs on, we find we have both HD & HC.
There is no excuse for not testing breeding stock.

Just incase you missed it first time.

You know what Staffie,
You really are very rude,
Staffmad offers up a professional answer (that dosnt tally with yours) and you launch into a personal attack on her.
I would rather listen to her devotion of her chosen breed and concern for health matters and her interesting personal and professional opinion regarding dogs over and over,  than listen to your spitefull drivel.
I dont blame her for being offended,who wouldnt!!!. In a few posts you have attacked her proffesional  dog health knowledge , her dog husbandry and herself.
ohh..and by the way you have made yourself look petty and imature in the process.

The fact that Staffmad has gone to such efforts to make sure her future stud is fit and healthy and worthy of passing on his blood to future generations, shows commitment and love of the animal...staffmad i applaude you.
The fact that she campagnies in the show ring an advocates at any chance the importance of fitness, shows commitment an love for the animal.
Ribbons and bows obviously mean nothing to her, but if she can get one judge to place her dog then she has hope, hope to raize the awareness of a fit and healthy animal....that takes strength and love of the breed.
You may be fed up with seeing her post on it... dont answer..simple eh, but if she gets one person to think on and put the health of an animal, above ribbons and bows....then she has done a good thing for the breed.
You owe Staffmad an appology. But there are dog lovers and some just like to come onto a public forum and be the loudest voice...shame eh....

Staffmad would be a big loss to this forum. You??????

blessings
The Wicked Witch of the south

Error...sorry

Maybe you could speak to your local breed club secretary and see whether they feel it would be a good exercise to try to encourage the scoring as part of the health tests required - even if only as a one off just to see whether we can establish a true breed average and get a better idea IF there is a problem in the breed. It would hopefully be done by a fair few if it was recommended by breed clubs? Maybe something for discussion at the next AGM???

wicked witch, stop going on about the previous disccussion, its finished and seeing as you only joined yesterday how do you know staffie wouldn't be missed? she gives out very good advice on here and has also saved a fair amount of puppies with her expertise in FPS so don't come on here talking about somone you dont even know and start causing trouble! let everyone get back to the subject in hand which is...hip scoring staffords, nothing else :)

Expertise!!!! HA

Yes, expertise. She has helped a lot of people save puppies with FADING PUPPY SYNDROME.

Nice to see you on the ball,.!!!!
Its a joke on here!!

Very good to see someone has the knowledge to save pups with FPS. Im impressed.

So you should be. The owners of the pups are too.

OK I wasn't going to add to this slander but........

I telephoned Anne-Marie yesterday regarding FPS and she was lovely, very helpful and knowledgeable. She will be responsible for helping many pups in the future which may otherwise have died and I do hope no one has to suffer watching their pups die from FPS. Big hugs to Anne-Marie and Claude.
Debbie

Brodie. Why are you doing this... take your dog for a walk

expertise ha

what was that for brodie?? you don't know nothing about staffie so why the sarcastic remark?? and also whats a joke on here? please explain so we all know what you mean!

Come on everyone....
STOP BICKERING !!!!!!!!!
Lel