Every morning I cycle past a man training his rough collies in a picnic area he stands about 30 metres away from them and instructs them with whistles its so impressive to watch I quite often stop and watch a while.
This morning I was off work so thought I'd walk the dog in that direction just to watch a while,when I arrived he wasn't there so I let my whippet off for a run of course as soon as I did so his two collies turn up and there's a blur of whippet and collies everywhere.
  One short whistle and his dogs are by his side and so is mine wanting to play so over I go about to say how well trained his dogs are when he shouts what that dog needs is a bloody good beating. I honestly thought he was joking but he wasn't he informed me with no shame that his dogs that I had always thought were really eager to please were obeying him through fear his exact words "they lose eye contact with me and they know the stick comes out".
The terrible thing is it obviously works as a training method so I left there wondering how many of the wonderfully trained dogs I'd admired are scared the hell of their owners and wishing I'd never stopped because my cycle into work is going to be a lot less happy.

Steve

That is distgusting I wish I could find thaat person and beat him with a stick till he did what I said.  The evil evil man it makes me sick!

eddie, im joining you with the beating!!!!!

I couldnt do that to a dog.  Its so upsetting that people train in this way but then people don't like me walking my dogs on check chains even tho I know how to use them and they Have never been harmed.

Rox

Hi Steve,
  That's terrible.  I also know someone like that - he has got two collies, but he has flattened them to the extent where they don't have fun doing obedience, and they only put a half hearted effort into it, so I can't see how it works well as a training method.  Then he gets annoyed because they don't do better.  My two dogs are much better at training work (and I'm not just saying that!), and I only ever use kind training methods, so we're not all the same!
  Hilda

Sad....poor dogs.

Karen

Isn't it sad that some people feel the need to make themselves look good by abusing animals? :(

What really upset me was how lovely his dogs were but when you mentioned flattened Hilda that described them perfectly it was like all the bounce had been taken out of them if you know what I mean.
Funny enough I was flicking through the channels the other day and they had some agility on during the horse jumping it was so nice to see how much the dogs and owners were enjoying it, especially at the end of it when they were praising their dogs with them bouncing everwhere made me wonder how many started agility just to try and tire their dogs out not that it seemed to work LOL

Its sad isnt it when you think they could be equally as well trained using love and trust :(

I am suprised his rough collies work that well for him as they dont do well with a heavy hand at all poor dogs what a pity someone doesnt train him the same way :(

Twice now I've witnessed acts of cruelty against dogs in our local wood.
The first was when this man lost his phone from the top pocket of his shirt, the chap was in his sixties I would guess, well my friend and I could see him going mad and hunting around, so we helped him search for his phone, but we were shocked when his temper got the better of him and he kicked his Airedale with such force he lifted it off the ground.
The second man was "whistle training" his springer spaniel......he was tooting on his whistle so much it sounded like he was trying to talk through it, and he kept on wacking his poor dog with a walking stick and whistling at the same time (I couldn't understand what he wanted the dog to do, so I don't know how the dog would be expected to know what he wanted).  I felt terrible because this man had stopped to talk with me about my dogs and then he started to do this to his dog in front of me, I should have said to the man that his behaviour was out of order, but I was too gutless (I was really upset about it afterwards).

It seems that to some people this is the only way to train a dog, I know someone  who feels the same way, when he first gets a dog if it doesn't recall immediately it get's put on a long line and eveytime it doesn't come back to him immediately it get's whacked !!!!!
The recall of his dogs is 100% and he rarely raises a finger to them when they get older, but you can still see the fear in their eyes when the return.
No amount of telling him will change his methods and I've tried often enough.

Ingrid

We went to watch an obedience show a few years ago and after the show had finished we watched the trainer of the club working his Belgian Shepherd using a arial off a radio I presume. It was awful to see him giving his dog a good hard wack when he did not do exactly as he was told! I was digusted although many of his obedience pupils were watching in admiration and gave me dirty look when I could no longer contain my anger!

Regarding the kicking incident, I have a small terrier who competes in agility and does get very excited.  A few months ago I was walking him between courses (on a lead off the show ground) and he was slightly hyper, to cut a long story short he started a fight with a dog (took a dislike to this passing dog, he gave an almighty tug on the lead and I let go) a the other dog was about twice his size (he was also on a lead), just as I had almost grabed him after about 2 seconds, I saw my dog go flying the other owner had given him a mighty kick which send him flying accross the path! I was in shock, I shouted at the man but was more concerned to see if my dog was ok.  My husband arrived about 5 minutes later and went mad, I was very shaken but he went off to find this man to give him a piece of his mind.

I know that it was my fault and my dog should not have started this fight but I could not believe what this man did....

I remember me and my dad were on the beach in Exmouth last year, out walking with the 2 bc's and the spaniel, quite early in the morning and there were only a few people about.

About half way down the beach and there is this bloke coming towards us with a Jack Russel... dad puts spaniel on the lead as he does not like Jack Russels. Jack Russel keeps running towards us, his owner making no attempt to call him back! Well Jack Russel runs up to spaniel, spaniel growls, Jack Russel goes for him, dad picks spaniel up and the bl**dy Jack Russel is holding on to spaniel's bits!! So my dad gave him a good boot to get him off, owner suddenly kicks into action comes running up "what the hell did you just do to my dog........" etc, me and dad just rolled our eyes and walked off! If either of my collies were being attacked I would have no trouble in kicking the other dog away.... they are my dogs and I would do whatever I could to protect them.

Char

How strange we also have a guy walk two collies in the field we use and he trains them constantly. They never have a run around but chase and retrieve a ball and then have to lay down and wait until they are called again. I would just love to see them running free and playing just for the hell of it sometimes. He must think my lot are a bunch of hooligans and he wouldn't be wrong but boy do they have fun. Jan

Thats the trouble with some of these nasty training methods. Although we can see how cruel they are, the method works, the dog is well behaved (out of fear - but as long as it does what it is told these people don't care why!) so they see no reason to stop doing it. Its really awful!

I see this at shows sometimes - dogs i call "brown-nosers" :(

I was mad last year - one man was being really hard on his Vizsla pup and he was wearing Chats jacket, Lucyandmeg - dont think Sally would have been at all impressed!!!

Some dogs can cope with this sort of harsh training but it is so unfair - they are being punished for the inadequacies of the owner. I swear for some people they get a kick out of the "power" they get. It's very sad.

Also it will can break a sensitive dog, or a dog who is strong in body and mind may gradually get used to this sort of treatment and over the months "need" more and more harsh treatment, and then the owners think the dog needs to be put to sleep or else given to people who have no scruples over the sort of training methods they will use. Trouble is, the end result can be a very dangerous dog :(

Makes me sick. I feel very sorry for those collies - what a stupid, stupid owner they have.

Lindsay

I know my dogs (both Vizslas) would NEVER take well to harsh treatment - especially Scarlet because she's a real sensitive soul...if anything upsets or frightens her she never forgets it.  I know for a fact that if she had been trained harshly it would have absolutely ruined her for life.  Wouldn't this harsh method make the dog more likely to become a dog which may develop into a fear biter? :(

Just a little twist to the original post, the man in question obviously reads champdogs as he wasn't very pleased with me blabbing about his training methods this morning. I've only mentioned it on here so I'm guessing he read about himself.

Steve

Well Steve,

In the hope that he's still reading ;), I have to say that I used clicker training and positive reinforcement to train my very willfull (sp?) Bedlington.  Even getting his attention when outside the house/garden was a minor miracle as EVERYTHING ELSE was soooo much more interesting and exciting than I was (I think there's too much 'working' in that there dog! :) )  I have to say he was trained very quickly indeed (others have commented, including bedlington owners) and does what I ask because its FUN :).  Many Bedlingtons now compete in obedience and agility - a testament to positive training since a Bedlington will always question whether what you want is a good idea ~ but thats terriers for you :D  Harsh methods would have destroyed my dogs trust in me and his temperament.  And once you know what signs to look for its usually fairly easy to spot the dogs which are trained through fear :(

Regards
Dill

If he does read the forum, then he certainly doesn't take in any of the advice regarding training methods.

I have a theory about people who abuse animals, whether its physical abuse or other, but this forum isn't the place to air it,  a psychiatrists forum would be a better place.

IMO one of the saddest sights is a dog with it eyes averted and tail between its legs as it avoids its so called master.

Robert

Having owned rough collies for some 25yrs I have found this post very sad. Collies are very elegant dogs also very sensitive and I cannot understand the cruelty of it. I cant fathom people out at times

Jean

Hi Jean I've been sad since I posted it I used to love watching them and I stopped nearly every morning to watch a little longer but I wont anymore. I love Rough Collies but I just think its scary how much energy they have ,I looked after a friends for three days and although it was very well behaved it still exhausted me.

Steve

We have a 5 month rough collie She is just beautiful & you are right they are full of energy & fun.Its a pleasure to watch them playing

Jean

It could be that this guy is trying to separate the 'fun' areas from the 'working' areas.  I know a lot of obedience dogs will associate certain fields as their fun times and will not work very well if you try to train them.  Sometimes you have to re-train until you can use both areas for multi-use!  Although this is a training flaw, and if the guy using harsh methods, then I don't agree at all!

Just thought there may be other explanations!

MW

Just to clear any ambiguity in my post, I was referring to the guy training the two collies in the filed, NOT the orginal post guy with the mistreated rough collies!  :)

MW

Hi there,

I've been following this threas and whilst it is very depressing about the cruel methods used, I want to say that I work Obedience Trials and these harsh methods are in the minority (you can tell as they try to 'hide' their treatment, which indicates they know their methods are wrong...though if they are hidden, perhaps it isn't as minor as I thought...hmmm).  Generally, trainers are very in tune with their dogs and want them to work because the dog wants to. 
I've used positive reinforcement methods (inc. clicker training) very successfully, and my WS is a very dominant and strong bitch (had I the mentality for cruelty, she would have coped with 'harsh training' however I disagree with it) it has not rendered her a power-freak as a result.  You do not need to cow a dog into submission.

MW

My problem is the opposite and I would appreciate any advice on this one.I have the 4 akitas,very wilful stubborn dogs and yes I have on occasion,slapped 3 of them on their back end with a rolled up newspaper I will hold my hand up to that but only when really naughty or nasty to each other.The one I don't do it with is Sox as she is a sensitive wee soul,but to look at her just lately you'd think she was hammered,haven't experienced this in any of my others,could it be a cringing stage,she is very immature compared to others and this has started just recently.She is even cringing at traffic noises when nothing has happened to alarm her.I always walk her myself so I know nothing has happened when she has been out.At the training it's a different matter she is great and never cringes.It's as if she has turned shy and scared for some reason,even with people that she sees everyday,very strange,can anybody shed any light on this,Sandra.:(

Sensitive dogs will be affected by another dog in the household getting a slap.

Thats a good point Sally,

My Beddie will cower and hide if I tell my little boy off.  To look at him you would think the pair of them were beaten with a big stick every day  

Very true Sally. Most dogs get very distressed when their owner gets angry, and go into appeasement mode.

They will 'apologise' for the gasman not turning up when expected, etc. They will 'apologise' when your teenage son comes home reeking of cigarette smoke. They will 'apologise' when the car won't start.

Unfortunately they also do this when their owner comes home to find a poo on the floor, the table-leg has been chewed, or the kitchen bin emptied all over the floor. "He knows he's done wrong" they say. No he doesn't! He knows you're angry, that's all!

I haven't aimed this at anyone at all, so I hope nobody takes offence - it's just a general rant, that's all.
:)

Ive often pondered on why people such as the original rough collie owner trains in this way.

There are def. power hungry people - for example, one lady who i know had no respect fromher hubby was very hard on her Lab pups - had to heel all the time, no fun allowed, no sniffing on walks, and lots and lots of little smacks. It was mental cruelty rather than anything physical,but didnt she know it. I actually felt depressed seeing them andin the end had to tell her i felt she was being way too hard. She just had to have that respect from someone, and if it was ony the dogs then at least that made her feel better.

Real bad abuse (ie torture) is rarely witnessed and as i am sure we are all aware, is the sort of thing that serial killers etc get up to usually behind closed doors :(

I suspect the rough collie owner either has no real idea about training or likes to bully a bit. Perhaps he was bullied at school. Apart from that, he was very rude to the OP and that tends to suggest he is not a very decent sort anyway. If it weren't for the collies i would almost feel sorry for him :(

No, i take that back - someone who says "my dogs obey me through fear" is a nasty *******

Lindsay