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By Hev
![[gb]](/images/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
Date 06.03.02 15:33 UTC
Has any one got any good advice for dogs pulling on the lead? I've got two dogs, a gsd and a collie x. the collie went to dog training classes for while until I moved county and gained my boyfriends very heavy and strong gsd. Before I moved, the collie occaisionally pulled, but now he's gained a pal, its seems to be a big competition between them both to get ahead of the other. Together they are an absolute nightmare to walk. i usually walk them with my boyfriends mum as I can't manage them both together. we've taught them to calm down a lot when they see their leads, as they used to go bezerk every time they saw it was walk time, running all over the place and jumping on everyone and everything in their way. they've learnt now that they don't go anywhere till they sit and wait for their leads to be put on. we're also trying the same sort of method when they pull and as soon as they pull, we stop and make them sit for a while. they are getting calmer but the pulling is still happening, especially by which ever dog is at the back! Am I doing it the right way and just need to be patient, or is there a better way? i'd love to be able to walk them both stress free!!!
HI Hev
Have you thought at all of trying a headcollar? They need ot be introduced slowly but most dogs get used to them and it makes walking easier when not able to train and just needing to get from A to B.
HTH a bit
Lindsay
By Hev
Date 06.03.02 16:28 UTC
Thnaks for the advice. I did used to have one for the collie, but gave up using it when I started taking him to classes, as the training there was working for him without it. I should invest in one for both of them, especially the gsd as he's very strong. I'd like to be able to have them both walking to heel naturally, but I know I'm probably going to be a long time getting there. the only thing that bothered me about the haltie when i used it on the Bracken, is that people gave me wide berth, thinking it was a muzzle and that he was viscious!
By DaveN
Date 06.03.02 16:39 UTC
I think you're doing the right thing calming them down before taking them out. A lot of it comes down to basic obedience. It may take a while with the stopping thing, but don't forget they've got in the habit of pulling over quite a period of time, so it may take a while to break. At risk of upsetting some contributors, when I've had problems with pulling with Labs and Springers, I have used a slip lead, and waiting till they move ahead and start to pull, with only one finger through the loop of the lead, stop walking and give a good yank. Usually this only has to be done a couple of times, and in a young dog this can be enough. I'm not sure what will work best with a large, more mature dog, as I've never let it get that far, but I'm sure you will get plenty more good suggestions to try.
This topic was covered quite extensively a few months back, with a lot ofgood sugestions. Go to Search and type in Pulling on lead and see if the thread comes up from the archives.
Just did it myself. It is a thread posted on 1st November last year by KirstyS, entitled pulling on lead!
By Leigh
![[us]](/images/flags/us.png "United States")
Date 07.03.02 08:37 UTC
By Hev
Date 07.03.02 09:29 UTC
Thanks!!! I should have looked back a bit further first!!!
By avaunt
Date 15.03.02 19:24 UTC
Below are edited copys of the Swedish test on collar and lead, the German tests on the prong collar and choke chain, the tests and results on electric training collars (the safest and most effective, if trained properly).
Head cages or Haltie types are probably the most damageing of all devices but the manufacurers have not released any results if they have in fact tested them, results of the others below. I unreservedly condem head cage halti type collars as inhuman and highly dangerous.
......................................................................................
The Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:
100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.
..............................................................................................
Neck and Skeletal Injuries In Dogs
Here are some alarming facts from a 1992 survey carried out in Sweden.
Soft Tissue, Esophagus, Trachea, and Skeletal Problems”
- 63% of the dogs examined had neck and spinal injuries.
- 78% of the dogs with aggression or over-activity problems had neck and spinal injuries.
- Of the dogs with neck injuries, 91% had experienced hard jerks on a leash or strained on their leashes.
The dog forging ahead or a tethered pet hitting the end of the line may still inflict spinal injury.
Here are some excerpts from the above-mentioned survey, a 1992 study by Dr. Anders Hallgren in Sweden.
“During 1992 several Chiropractors, my students and I conducted a study of 400 dogs from different dog clubs in Sweden. Dog owners were offered a free examination of their dog by a chiropractor in return for their voluntary participation.
Those who volunteered to participate in the study had mostly ordinary dogs, in that owners presented them to us without any suspicion of spinal anomalies…Canine back problems are common. The result of our study showed that the chiropractors found back anomalies in 63% of the 400 dogs…dogs that “acted out” in other words, that exhibited over activity and aggression, 78% had spinal anomalies. Spinal anomalies seem to constitute an irritation that often results in stress reactions, aggression or fear. This is also in accordance with my own and my students’ experience with problematic dogs…Causes behind spinal anomalies. In our study there were some factors that correlated with spinal anomalies. These were: 1. Accidents. 2.Pulling on leash. 3 Limping during adolescence.
2. Pulling on leash; Of those dogs that had Cervical (neck) anomalies, 91% had been exposed to harsh jerks on the leash, or they had a long history of pulling or straining at the end of a leash. There is a risk of “whip-lash” from jerking the leash that increases if the dog wears a choke chain. Choke chains are constructed such that pulling it results in pressure distributed around the dog’s neck, but the muscles that absorb the pressure a situated mostly at the sides of the neck. The neck and throat are almost unprotected. For many years people have been criticized for the use of choke chains and training methods that use jerking and pulling on a leash as a means of controlling behavior. There is probably a relationship between the force of the jerk and risk of injury.
........................................................................................................
Remote Electric Training Collars.
Clinical studies have been designed and conducted for Tri-Tronics by veterinarians and physiologists at a major university. The scientific studies tested for possible cardiopulmonary and epidermal effects of Tri-Tronics electrical stimulation applied to the ventral surface of the neck of healthy dogs. These studies showed that there are no clinically significant changes in electrocardiograms, blood pressures or properties of the skin underlying the contact points. The clinical investigations involved parameters of electrical stimulation (e.g. maximum output voltage, output impedance, current density, and repetition rate) that are basically the same for all our models. The safety of these units is supported by strong scientific clinical data. Both the collar and the transmitter have redundant safety cutoff features which shut down the unit and prevent excessive stimulation.
........................................................................................................
By Sharonw
Date 15.03.02 20:17 UTC
Yesterday we had 'walking on the lead' training in the park in the rain. Apparently, what you have to do when they pull is stop. When they have stopped pulling and made some eye contact with you, you start off again. If they start to pull again, you stop again. This is supposed to make them understand that they will be going nowhere fast unless they play by your rules. Hope this helps!
Another variation on this theme, when a dog is excited about getting t6o where its going, asnd pulling, is to do a legt about turn across the dogs path and walk in the opposite direction, if it pulls again, then left about turn a gain, so that in the end you are going backwards and forwards along the dame bit of ground, definately going knowhere. with my rather stubborn Elkies this has been the methos that has worked best!
By John
Date 15.03.02 21:28 UTC
I'm sorry. I cannot accept Remote Electric Training Collars as a standard means of training a dog! If I ever had to resort to this I would pack up dog! What is the present insistence on instant training? YOU WON'T GET IT![/U] Work at training, build up the obedience and trust. I don't consider that all training of bygone years were good but one thing is certain, not all of today’s methods are good either.
John
By mattie
Date 15.03.02 21:38 UTC
I'm not happy about this Remote electric collar thing being on here at all,theres enough abuse of dogs without putting ideas into peoples heads
thats twice theyve been mentioned today !!!
One way of trying is to get your dog sitting beside you so it is steady to start with and you have it's attention - have liver/toy/special treat in your hand and hold it close to your body in front of dogs nose. Say heel/close and dog's name take a few steps - three or four - so your dog does not have time to pull. Give it the treat or a game and lots of praise. Do this three or four times and then stop. If you only take a few steps and have the dog's attention when you set off it is less likely to pull. I think this is one of the "secrets" of training a dog that many people never grasp - get the dog's attention on you before you do anything :). Over the months the food can be dropped but some kind of reward must remain and playing (not roughhousing) with your dog is probably one the best ways to bond because it is just between the two of you.
Use a Lupi or halti for getting to and fro until you have the heelwork worked on enough to use it when you are going somewhere. Under no circumstances should electric collars be use for this type of training (or any other) unless it happens to be the owners who are wearing them <g>
Christine
By issysmum
Date 15.03.02 22:02 UTC
Thanks Christine, I was just about to post on how to get Holly to walk to heel and you beat me to it. :D
cheers,
Fiona
Shock collar's sorry but anyone who uses these methods don't deserve to own a dog imo.
Karen
What a sensible post - :)
I do so agree about the attention aspect, one of the first things i have taught my dog is to look at me when I say her name, and from there we can progress to doing an exercise. Many owenrs do wonder as you say why their dog isn't doing as they ask, when the dog in question can't evenhear them as it is totally deaf and concentrating on something across the room or a new dog or that tiny moving speck on the horizon!!!
LIndsay
By issysmum
Date 15.03.02 22:12 UTC
I wouldn't have thought they would be legal in this country. They are horrible and completely unnecessary in any situation. If you have to shock your dog to get it to behave then you are not the right owner for that dog and it should go to someone who can control it without having to resort to physical violence.
Fiona
Can't find the emoticons for 'disgusted' or 'shaking with anger' so the words will have to do instead.
By John
Date 16.03.02 23:29 UTC
They are legal in this country Fiona, in fact I was looking at 3 such adverts in a magazine yesterday afternoon just before this flared up on the board. But I feel that is only because they do not get much publicity. In some countries where they now seem to be a way of life on the working field they are just beginning to find the error of their ways. They are loosing the softer type of Labrador. Only the harder types can withstand that kind of treatment. What is happening now is that some of the more enlightened working people are importing UK working Labs to try to get the natural character back! Without resorting to these means even I can push "The Flower" out 300yds, stop her and redirect her in any direction and I dont rate her or me as that good!
I said earlier that I could not accept them as a standard method of training and I feel most strongly about this. This does not mean that they do not have a use, I could think of times when it might be possible to use one and by doing so maybe avoid having to have the dog put down but those circumstances are few and far between.
Regards, John
By penny
Date 16.03.02 23:03 UTC
Whoops I posted this in the wrong place, anyway found this thread again.
Hi Fiona,
It's something should be sorted out quickly it does a massive amount of damage.
I read the Swedish reports in detail in the mid 90’s, I also saw gruesome photos of the autopsies.
In Europe they are very up to date on dogs compared to here, one rarely sees a dog pulling on collar and lead, they are comapritivly very well trained, free as a result and conspicuously much closer to their owners than one sees here.
The research and sceintific data from avaunt is probably the best guidline for you.
I would't attempt to give any training tips by email but what you describe is a failure in training or whatever teaching, if any you have undertook.
Pulling on the lead is a and a part only of an overall lack of obedience.
This can't be done in any way via emails, it can only be done in a real life COMPETANT obedience training course.
The damage done to the dog by pulling on collars and leads is phenominal, even worse would be a halti type head restraint, thats a punishment system without any training potential at all, in fact its useage indicates a catatrophic training failure.
So please, please, PLEASE find a competant training course for yourself as soon as possible.
Hope things go well, Penny.
By avaunt
Date 17.03.02 01:15 UTC
I am the one who posted the data on damage by pulling on collars and leads, the results of the German tests on prong and chokers and the research on Remote Static Electric training collars.
This posting was in response to the most dangerous everyday situation a dog ends up in i.e. pulling on a collar.
It is conspicuous that replies have failed, in fact avoided,the medicaly dangerous issues and concentrated on the remote static electric training collar, avoiding the dameg being done everyday to the dog in question, which in my naive way is of utmost concern, at least to the dog.
I think it is an intelligent and reasonable question to ask all those who condemn them to explain how they are used, the logic being that to reject something there has to be factual knowledge via experience, for instance someone said they thought they were illegal here, thats a good starting point why should they be illegal, please take into account the reports on choke chains and pulling on leads.
Avaunt
i am afraid i agree with John, Mattie, Karen and others on this one.
I agree with the recent GErman data that check/choke collars oftten cause spinal problems - also eye and leg nerve problems which usually go undetected for years.
i agree that Haltis etc can also be damaging if the dog is jerked on them, i have heard a dog's neck crack at a training club once on a headcollar device, although the owner seemed to disregard it! However i do recommend headcollars because they are effective and gentle training aids when used properly.
But i regard the shock collar as a method of punishment rather than a method of training. Why punish rather than train?
I was chatting to a friend of mine who works gundogs and also visits a lot of gundog trainers in America, and he says that not only do they use e collars to train, as I think John has already said, (thus losing initiative in their gundogs) but also they use pulleys to teach the dog to go straight!!!
I do believe we must put in the hard work, as others have already said, and not go for a nic e easy quick fix of the e collar.
Also there is increasing evidence that e collars cause dreadful reactions such as dogs attacking those neare them if shocked - a small dog was killed by a dog who had been shocked regularly in a certain place, for barking, and the dog with the e collar turned on the small dog who was walking past, and killed it because it associated it with the shock.
I too would give up if i had to do this; I want a spirited dog, not an automaton which i feel an e collar would produce at the end of the day :(
I train using a normal collar, and lots and lots of hard leg work!!!! No jerks, just consant direction changing, rewards for loose lead, etc. Cl.icker training is helpful here too :)
Lindsay.
lindsay
By John
Date 17.03.02 08:39 UTC
America does use a number of gadgets in gundog training Lindsay. As well as pulleys to train them to run straight they also use devices to release dummies from under water. Now I am the first to accept that some of the devices are extremely useful and as in all training, you listen, evaluate, take on board the good points and reject those you do not feel happy with.
As far as this survey is concerned, I would need to see how the various head collars and check chains were used before commenting on the injuries they are supposed to have inflected. Quite frankly I do not believe all I see in print. Lobby groups can find "Proof" of just about anything if they look at data in the right way. Maybe electric collars suit Avaunt's style of training, for as long as they stay legal in the country where he or she trains then no laws are being broken. On a purely personal note, my dogs will not be subjected to such a device.
Regards, John
The idea of training hunting dogs with shock collars came up on an email list I'm on today - it started because someone was told by a classmate with a 'hunting' pup that they would not use treats to train obedience as they were a hunting dog and the original poster asked if this was a common thought.
The reply from one person was that she has trained all her dogs first through regular obedience through use of tidbits etc, and her dogs (she's been in hunting dogs for over 30 odd years) are ALWAYS obedient no matter how far away - they learn quickly to respond first time every time to whatever command. She went on to say she is shocked (pun not intended) to see how many people these days are using the 'short cut' with the shock collar - and that the dogs are still nowhere near as accurate/obedient (whatever the term is).
Basically this ramble is to say that even in America a lot of people in the hunting world don't see eye to eye on some of the new methods (though they would agree that some of the gadgets ARE beneficial).
I agree that the shock collar is the VERY LAST thing I would ever use in training. I believe dogs respond more to positive reinforcement than negative.
Wendy
By penny
Date 17.03.02 08:56 UTC
Hi All,
Lindsey, I note what you say about a dog killing another dog but as understood avaunts question he wants to know how they are used to train, so what method was used in that particualar incident, what was the breed and background of the aggressive dog, what was the other dog doing at the point of attack and what is it that suggests the useage of the e collar had anything to do with it.
Avaunt asked why should they be illegal, I cannot see any reason any humane and safe device should be illegal regardless of what that device happens to be.
So can someone tell me why they should be illegal?
By John
Date 17.03.02 10:02 UTC
Sorry Penny, I just cannot accept that the regular use of electric collars is in fact a humane or a safe device. Even the continued mention of them here I find an insult. I wonder if a mother would considder using one on her child! And if she did, what sort of prison sentence she would get?
John
I saw something yesterday for the first time, which was a collar with a remote control which releases a puff of air under the dog's chin.
This, to my mind is a much more humane way of getting a dog's attention for those people who can't be bothered to work at training their dogs and who have the aptitude. Very few people will have the aptitude/timing required, as you need to learn how to train a dog before you learn timing. Very, very few people have this naturally, mostly it has to be learnt and not everyone can/or can be bothered, to do so.
So, this still seems to bring me back to the fact that training should be done without the use of any kind of shock collar. If you can't get your dog back to you then don't let it off the lead or long line until you can etc etc.
Christine
By frank45
Date 17.03.02 11:08 UTC
Avaunt seems to be asking how e collars are used.
They are used ONLY for reinforcing known commands.
Used properly they work on the pack drive and in simple basic terms they are an electric collar and lead but without the stress or danger of collars and leads, as there is no long visual line the dog is only aware that he and his pack leader (handler) are working together, dogs are perceptive, some breeds more than others, and as soon as the long line is taken off they know it.
Dogs trained on e collars show a very close pack bond to their handler.
Starting to train to use an e collar the handler (or eventual handler) wears one himself, the lowest levels of static stimulus are found which the person feels as uncomfortable, the future handler/owner is asked to challenge the static stimulus under unexpected distractions, the same as the dog, that is a simple explanation only of level finding and ABOVE ALL of understanding how they are working.
The correct usage, after training, develops the pack bond relationship between handler and dog and they are the most efficient, safe and effective method of training with a dominant dog.
I do not agree with giving out training tips by email or books as it is a world removed from real life training and is dangerously misleading for someone to apply book , email etc advice to their own dog, however some factual information without suggesting ‘do this, try that’ can be a useful. guidline to be followed through by ones own research.
One piece of factual information is that all dogs are individuals, the fundamental drives on which all dogs are trained vary in balance.
Halties are generaly considered inhumane, dangerous punishment devices without any training value whatsoever.
By mattie
Date 17.03.02 11:15 UTC
How can any dog get used to a shock collar?what will be thought of Next,remote controll for TV,Garage door,CD Player,DOG....I'm really chewed up about this and I hope they are made illegal,People Like John who trains with Kindness and common sense are wasting their time even answering some of these posts because in my mind John and who ever want to advocate these damned collars are not on the same wavelength at all . I had to go for a test some years ago for carpel tunnel thing in my hands and they put like an electric pulse in you hands and I can tell you mild though it was it was horrible and I wanted it to end quick! and was glad I didnt have to have it done again,so a collar ...well I couldnt imagine but would think it could drive a dog mad.
Anyway as I said I'm chewed up about these collars so am going off now !!!
People say the electric collar is like a static shock to the dog and it is mild like when you get a shock from a metal object well the amount of times I have had that static shock from opening my car doors and yes it has shocked me.
I feel sorry for any dogs that have to take this treatment day in day out.
Karen
By Reefer
Date 17.03.02 12:17 UTC
I hope this post ends up in the right place:D We got our current dog at the age of 6 (the dog that is), and one of the reasons we got our dog from where we did was so that hoepfully he wouldn't pull on the lead WRONG. Now I have a disability which means stopping dead then carrying on just didn't work, he only had to take one step and we were off again! It just turned into a huge nagging fest which niether of us enjoyed. I contacted the people from where he came for advice again and reminded her of why we had gone to them, she imediately recomended a Gentle Leader, which I got and life was wonderful!
However, when he has it on now (5 years later) it does seem to age him by about 5 years, SO taking inspiration from here we are going to embark on a whole new training programme involving left about turns, focussing and titbits (luvs his food). And when we are successful I am going to treat him to a posh new collar and lead, more in-keeping with his senior years, and he can show it off!
In dealing with the problem when we got him initally there is no way I would have used and electric shock collar, even if where I had got him from recommended it, my inability to do 'physical training' is my problem not the dogs, surely as John and the others say there are many other preferred methods.
By Harry C.
Date 17.03.02 11:08 UTC
Hi everybody,
Sorry to poke my nose in after not visiting this board for a few months, but I have read through this whole thread and it seems to have developed more branches than an oak tree.
The oridginal question was for advice on stopping dogs from pulling on the lead.
I am a firm believer in 'that you only get out what you put in'. There are no short cuts to good 'training'. Gadgets and gimmicks are just that, gadgets and gimmicks and not a substitute for good basic training.
I don't say that I am an 'expert dog trainer', but to try to answer how to stop a dog pulling on the lead, I can only offer the method that I have found most effective for me.
I use the 'about turn method'. (Note: If you want to get someplace in a hurry 'don't try this'. Better to leave the dog at home and train when you have more time.)
When walking your dog and the dog starts to pull, do an about turn and walk in the opposite direction, with a firm command 'Heel Fido'. By definition the dog is no longer 'pulling' it's 'dragging'. Keep repeating this every time your dog starts to pull. Eventually the dog will get so confused as to which way you are going it will stay by your side, when this happens give lots of praise and 'Good boy Fido's'.
It takes time. But this is the method that I have used on all of my dogs. And once trained I have never had a dog pull on the lead.
Lastly it is not harmful to the dog and it cost nothing for gimmicks or gadgets.
Good luck, I hope that you soon have 'pull-free' dogs to walk with.
Regards,
Harry C.
By John
Date 17.03.02 11:46 UTC
Hi yer Harry, long time no see!
Best wishes, John
By Harry C.
Date 20.03.02 10:38 UTC
Hi Old-un,
Good to see that you are keeping all this rabble in check with good sound advice.
Best wishes to you John,
Harry C.
By mari
![[ie]](/images/flags/ie.png "Ireland")
Date 20.03.02 11:19 UTC
Harry he has a way about him ;) mari
By frank45
Date 17.03.02 11:52 UTC
Yes its the about turn dangerous jerk on the neck e collars stop,there are no sharp punishment jerks as the full weight of the dog goes in one direction jerked by the combined weight and speed of the owner in another, the dogs neck, vertabrate and aesophegus remain trauma free.
I agree wholeheartedly with Karen that if a dog is subjected to static shocks day in day out I would feel sorry for the dog, however, the method of useing e collars in dog training is not useing them day in day out, they learn very quickly and continuous reinforcement such as is suggested by Karen would show the training and incorrect method is being used, so incorrect in fact it could not be described as a training method at all.
Static electric collars work on the animal equivililent of the human Cognitive Behaviourist principle.
There seems to be another misconception about them i.e. that they are a new thing.
They are not, they were, many years ago before digital technology, a single stimulus shock and used mainly for the out in protection, they have been around since WW2.
The modern digital static electric training collar is incomparible with those old analogue collars, they work on the same (not similar) basis as laid down by the welping mother in the litter and naturaly occuring negative reinforcement agents, such as nettles and some Toads which give of a mildly poisonous, very bitter substance never to be touched by the dog again AND MANY more everyday occuring similar naturaly occuring stimulus.
Electric collars which need to be used daily means the person useing them does not know what they are doing, thankfully with a static electric collar no damage is done as would be the case with about turn jerking or daily usage of choke chains which despite the German autopsies are available in every pet shop.
By Annalee
Date 17.03.02 13:23 UTC
I am quite new hear and I really am finding these links very interesting, not least this one.
Hev is trying to find a safe way to stop her dog pulling on the lead, I and all other profesional trainers are well aware of the damage caused daily by dogs pulling on the standard collar and lead.
What I find intrigueing on this link is that people are rejecting outright what is known to be the safest and kindest training aid available, the static electric collar, yet out of all that has been said only one or two people here seem to have any knowledge of how it works or how to use it.
Putting it in a wider context there are dozens of emails throught this forum of failed methods of training, mainly tit bit and almost invariably behaviourist based, surely it is these failures ending up with Hev and others dogs pulling themselves to medical injury which should be rejected and not methods which have a (a) a proven success world wide (b) have an excellent safety record and conducive to an excellent relationship between handler and dog.
At the end of the day it is up to Hev who or which school of thought she goes to to find a proficient trainer, but, she would be well advised to stay away from the same school of thought she has been to/if she has been to previously as it is this which has failed her.
As regards remote static electric training collars Frank is right, you learn to use them by haveing your trainer put them on you first and useing them (sorry detail is misleading so I will not try),they are based on Cognitive Behaviour principles albeit applied to dogs and they work on the pack drive giveing a very close bond and strong relationship between dog and handler/owner etc.
I hope Hev gets this corrected quickley as each day goes by more damage might be done.
Annalee
By John
Date 17.03.02 13:32 UTC
Sorry, dont take this the wrong way but we seem to be swamped at the moment by people from across the water advocating the use of electric collars.
To all thinking people I will go on the record as saying. "Do not follow this advice! It is in my opionion dangerous!"
John S Weller
By Isabel
Date 17.03.02 13:59 UTC
Its not only dangerous John its a horrible thing to do to any animal. I have electric therapy to my arm when it was paralysed nearly 20 years ago it was a very unpleasant experience, when I look at my dogs the thought of subjecting them to that is unthinkable. All those advocating the use of these collars seem to be always suggesting they are better than choke chains but time and again posters on here have advocated the stop and start method and nobody that I have read has suggested that choke chains are the best way.
By Annalee
Date 17.03.02 14:23 UTC
Accross what water? I live North of the Thames.
I do not advocate any single method of training any dog, it is when any person dealing with dog behaviour, regardless of what label they call themselves uses only one single method that problems set in.
What needs to be remembered is that we are dealing with dogs, they do not have intellegence as we understand it, they have drives and it is drives whch we train on, if they did have human intellegnce Hev's dog would not be risking its life as it is.
If we start to put human characersitics into dogs we are no longer dealing with a realistic situation and the dog suffers as a result, as can be seen throughout this entire forum.
Dogs need a leader or they end up in life threatening difficulties, it is our responsibilty to ensure at all times we cater their well being and safety AS DOGS.
This can only be done with consistent training methods, if we start to fit the dog into a theory which works only for a minority of dogs then we have lost track of what we set out to do ( i.e. make the dog safe by training,) and try to prove the theory is correct at the dogs expense, that implies the person has a problem and the dog suffers as a result.
If one looks through this entire forum it is full of one training failure after another, mainly tit bit training, and all the advice the individual seems to get is a repeat of methods they have paid £££s for in the past and which have failed, this indicates there is no problem with useing an e colar but a problem with lack of knowledge and experience of people commenting adversly on it who are stuck in ideas which do not work and can't say 'This theory is wrong'
Annalee
By Sharonw
Date 17.03.02 15:43 UTC
Annalee, I wonder why you bother to visit this board at all if you are so convinced that the methods most people use are wrong. I dispute strongly your point about dogs not possessing intelligence. Of course it is not the same as ours, but they are intelligent and, having accepted that WE are 'top dog' most are only too willing to learn when given firm but KIND training. This method you are so keen on will do nothing to inforce the strong bond between owner/trainer and dog which is desirable if we are to have well behaved and balanced animals.
By Isabel
Date 17.03.02 16:07 UTC
Annalee, are these electric shock collars used by GDB or even the police, army, etc.
Annalee, regarding your suggestion that this forum is full of one training failure after another, don't forget that there are plenty of dog owners out there who don't use e collars who are hugely successful and have well trained dogs, whatever method they may decide upon using.
The people who post on here are doing so because they want help, those who are happy with their dogs' level of training obviously don't post for help. Many rrespected organisations such as Guide Dogs don't use e collars, and why not? Because they dont' have to, that's why! Yet their dogs' training speaks for itself.
lindsay
Ah - but the theory isn't wrong - only how people use it. A training method or device is only as good as the person using it. I have seen the *MAJORITY* NOT *MINORITY* of dogs trained using this method benefit and do very well. Mine is not as obedient as she could be because *I* didn't do good follow through on the training - not because the training didn't work.
We studied animals to create human phsychology and understand human behaviour - now we are FINALLY using what we learned from the animals ON the animals (which we should have done in the first place). I'd rather not go back 30-50 years in my thinking thank you very much. I watch old footage of Barbara Woodhouse and want to call the RSPCA!
Wendy
By mari
Date 17.03.02 16:14 UTC
At the risk of being insulted again I still want to add my support to John, and Harrry, and mattie ,and Isabel ,it is an awful way to train a dog . I have been guilty of using a rolled newspaper , but If I ever had to resort to that kind of thing I would reconsider owning a dog .
By Isabel
Date 17.03.02 16:29 UTC
I think you have hit upon something there Mari, well not reconsider owning a dog but perhaps consider what type of dog. Now I would never claim to be a particularly good dog trainer but I do recognise my limitations consequently I have never attempted to take on a breed that I could not tackle easily and there are many large, strong willed breeds that I admire and I know many people who handle them beautifully without recourse to shock collars. If we all recognised and were honest about our abilities there would be no need for such things.
Hi just for the record there is no way on this earth I would ever use one of these collers on my sensitive collies! Gillian
By DaveN
Date 17.03.02 19:22 UTC
Electric collars is certainly a hot topic, but there may be certain points to consider. Electric fences have been used to contain stock for many years, with animals very quickly learning not to go near. I believe they also emit a sound before shocking to warn the dog. We are not talking about an electric chair here. If they only need one or two applications to get a result, maybe this is better than months/years of disobedience, a bit like showing your dog the rolled up newspaper!
Before I get hate mail, I don't/haven't/won't use them because I've always managed without, but I'm sure this is like the docking issue, where some that do, do so for valid reasons, and some that don't abhore it and see it as undue cruelty. Hunting with dogs also springs to mind.
By John
Date 17.03.02 20:32 UTC
I think there is a world of difference between a rolled up news paper and an electric collar. I have never in all my time in dogs felt the need to try and cut my training short by using one of these things and I detest anyone who does! They forfit any respect i ever had for them.
John
By mari
Date 17.03.02 20:45 UTC
daveN electric fences are there to prevent cattle getting out on the roads or into other peoples property , not to be inflicted for punishment. Some say cows are stupid and creatures of habit and can only be thought to keep away by pain. I dont hold with cattle being hurt either but I do see the need for fencing re cows on the road causing traffic accidents or peoples property being destroyed etc.. there is no need to use this form of training for the dogs it is not necessary. The old way has worked for all up to now, so if it is working why change it , Obedience and trials are a sport and part of that sport is working with your dog building up a bond and successfully training him yourself. most of the pleasure in training a dog is self satisfaction at ones success. I have heard it time and time again when a dog wins. I trained him myself [said smugly.] I cant see any satisfaction like that using an E coller. I am sure it will be used, I am sure it will have dogs doing all sorts of things for fear of getting pronged but I am also sure it is wrong. best wishes Marie
By eoghania
![[de]](/images/flags/de.png "Germany")
Date 18.03.02 16:04 UTC
Hi John,
I'm still curious about your comment about "people from across the water advocating the use of electrtic collars." What exactly do you mean? Are you saying this is coming from America? I'm current on Dog Fancy & Dog World among other US canine publications and I haven't heard anything concerning e-collars for training.
In fact, this is the first place that I've "heard" any discussion about the topic of e-collars for obedience training. . I don't like the idea of them. I've dealt with quite a few problem "puppies" and I can't think of any time that patience and cunning could be substituted for a gadget.
Right now the current fad in the US is for the "electric boundary" and the "citronella spray on the collar" for too much barking. Wait a minute, I remember hearing a while back a discussion concerning e-collars to control barking....Is this what you mean? It's lost popularity because....it doesn't work if the dog is stubborn enough to deal with the pain over time.
Electric boundaries are gaining in popularity, but people are starting to realize that it a) won't protect pet from outside dangers & b) a dog really worked up can escape in a second's push.
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To get back on the original topic....., my remedy for chronic pulling depends on the dog. For some the tidbit concept works... keep it in your left fist and the dog's nose gets trained to stay on your pant's side seam. Works over the long term and that dog certainly pays attention to your hand, even when its empty. I've done the turn suddenly & push into the shoulder/on toes. My favorite is to dead stop. When the dog loosens up on the lead, start moving again. Similar to horse training ---pressure & release, except backwards a bit. Be creative. My grandfather's favorite saying. "You gotta be smarter than the dog to train it." No one way guarantees an absolute fit for all dogs.
good luck :-)
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