<<Stop banging your heads against the wall and be thankful that there will always be thousands of people prepared to purchase commercial food which leaves us raw feeders easily available supplies at low cost.>>

Sounded like a stand down and cease the propaganda signal to me, sorry ;)

Hmmm, never realised we were at war :D

Just propaganda ;) fine if you want to sing the praises of feeding raw, but lets stop bashing complete food and suggesting those who feed it need to be educated. We all do our own research and we all reach our own conclusions, and I do not feel guilty feeding my dogs complete nor am I going to tell horror stories about those who feed BARF or raw.

The heading might have been but the question was what did people think of it, so both sides of the argument are free to give their opinions I think?    It just seems the BARFers immediately leap in with long virtuous paragraphs about BARF feeding so us COMPLETers want to have a go at jumping in too!    We are allowed you know!    ;)

My boy Curtis is fed 2 slices of toast (Made with the dreaded wheat) & butter prior to his complete food breakfast.  Than complete again for tea & then Bonios before bedtime....his coat is fantastic & a very good  length for a Munster...he is a gundog too.   No BARF foods there!

These kind of discussions always bring a smile to my face :)
It never ceases to amaze me that 'BARF' always does this and we fall into the same trap everytime!
Murph eats Oscars, raw, veggies, pretty much anything that's going, within reason and he is in excellent condition. I, for one, have never tried to 'convert' anyone to raw feeding...I feed both so please don't imagine that all raw feeders are totally commited to changing people over to their way of thinking! I've certainly got better things to do with my time and we are all adults on this forum and should be able to accept eachothers way of feeding with critisising or verbally abusing people!
People ask questions about raw feeding, just answer their questions and let them decide for themselves what to do.

TTFN

ruth

I think the answer to this this question is sooo obvious! A life of processed foods or a life of whole fresh foods,it's a no brainer??I feed a mixture of home cooked and a bit of raw BUT this was not MY choice, it was my dogs,they both absolutely reeefuse to eat commercial food,i think my dogs have extremely good taste :D They know and feel the benefits they reap from fresh foods,i'm sure?I would have started this way of feeding long ago but i was put off of all the work that i mistakenly thought was involved,i prepare their dinner whilst cooking for my family+ i get just as much pleasure from my dogs enjoying and appreciating my effort as i do from my family,the little amount of extra work is well worth it,i honestly dont understand the debate on BARF versus COMMERCIAL as one can not possibly compare the two :confused I dont see anyone trying to convert anyone on this thread,could there be a few guilty conciouses out there perhaps??The thing that really upsets me is the people who feed commercial to their dogs for the reason thaT they couldnt be bothered fixing their dogs a nutritious meal,what else are these dogs missing out on??
I have to add that i have nothing against commercial feeders,if their dogs are THRIVING on this diet,then good.But i dont honestly see the point of this debate,it would be like us eating the same packaged foods day in day out for the rest of our lives,definatly not a healthy way of living,it is no different for our dogs.The one thing that absolutely breaks my heart is when i hear of dogs eating the same brand,the same flavour for ever without ever having a change,at least with home prepared foods our dogs get a massive variety.
To the die hard commercial feeders,i would really love to hear how you could possibly compare fresh whole foods to commercial??

Christine(Adelaide,Australia)

I certainly don't have a guilty conscience.......maybe I should?.........maybe me constantly feeding Mia on a (IMO) decent complete & how she looks on it, is holding her back from winning her 3rd CC and her show title?         Aren't I just thoughtless?            BUT  then she has won 2 CC's on her condition & quality being fed a complete, likewise her aunt who is on 5 CC's & 7 RCC's and her younger brother who has a RCC and numerous 1st's....all born & raised on completes.....maybe I'll stick with what I know, thanks!   Think the results say it all??????

Just a thought! Is prepared and cooked processed? Suppose it must be. And to think I have fed my family like this for years.

Absolutely Jackie! Unless you and your family munch raw vegetables etc, you too are eating a processed diet.
:)

Raw dirty veg I suppose complete with anything the cat left on them. No thanks I'll stick to processed at least I know the cooking will have sterilised it.

Of course Jackie, if the way you`re cooking meals at home resembles the cooking practices of the dog food manufactures then it is processed!!! Didn`t know you cooked your dogs dinner the same as your own family.

Christine, Spain.

I wish I had a laughing icon Jackie, that has made me laugh!  :D

Salads & raw vegetables are a way of every day life over here, suppose that could be why the Latin countries are known to have such healthy diets & their government`s don`t have to issue reminders to people to eat 5 portions of fruit/veg daily & warn them of the dangers of processed foods.

Christine, Spain.

I thought Spain was famous for paella, Christine? ;) Or Escudella de Pages? Or Callos a la Madrilena? I've even found 'Stuffed squid with chocolate sauce'! Sounds pretty processed to me!

After all, even bread is processed food.
:)

Well J/G, just goes to show, there was me thinking it was gazpacho ;) Suppose it`s bit like UK being famous for fish n chips or is that chicken tikka now ;)
Don`t speak to me about Callos,(by the way Madrlina is only popular to the la Manch area) tripes so popular with people here that`s why I can`t get any for me dogs :D and don`t know anybody who`s ever done squid with chocolate
It`s still doesn`t come close to the way dog food is processed tho & at least you can see all the ingredients going in it or not, whatever the case may be :)

Christine, Spain.

LILLY! I dont recall asking how many titles your dog has won,all those letters and numbers are just jibberish to me,i'm not so much interested on the outside but the inside,i understand these two SOMETIMES go hand in hand,but i want your opinion on the q i did ask you.
I did  ask how you compare processed foods to fresh whole foods?I am really looking forward to your responce,altho i doubt you have a valid argument to my question?? Like i stated before i have absolutely nothing against people feeding commercial,it's an easy work free way of feeding,i have heard foods such as burns or naturediet are excellent foods,if i lived in the U.K i would probaly supplement my dogs diet with them.Dog food manufactures seem to forget about us down here as we only have the usual fare such as sci. diet and CRAPaneuba etc. etc. which i wouldnt feed to rabbits!

Look forward to your reply Lilly :) How can you compare processed,artificial foods to fresh whole foods????????????????????

Christine(Adelaide,Australia)

What is artificial food - thought food was something you could eat. Or do you mean the plastic fruit or veg you use to decorate the table.

When I was working I would not listen to a rep who's sales pitch was to run down the opposition, he was shown the door toot sweet and I would tell the firm he represented that I would purchase their product when they could sell it to me on it's quality and their service without running down their competitors who's products I was selling and their reps attitude was tantamount to telling me I was selling rubbish.

What am I talking about, well this is how I feel about some to the BARF and raw feeding brigade, if they are so convinced about what they are doing why do they have to spend most of their energy on running down other peoples chosen feeding methods, and the manufactures of that food. Do they think the rest of us can't read the information on the packets, what confounded cheek.

By all means tell us about what you feed and how you source it, but I for one ignore your writings when you spend so much time talking about a product you don't use, why do you do it, is it to convince yourselves.

  

Jackie the post asked people to give their opinions on it & thats exactely whats been done. If someone who doesn`t feed raw points out the dangers of it, then raw feeders are going to respond. *well this is how I feel about some to the BARF and raw feeding brigade, if they are so convinced about what they are doing why do they have to spend most of their energy on running down other peoples chosen feeding methods, and the manufactures of that food.* That works both ways, I see raw being run down a lot of the time.
And why shouldn`t we we let it be known what we think, everyone else sure does & lets face it, raw feeders are in the minority on this board.
My opinions are for people who want to know there is an option or alternative method for anything relating to dogs that I have experience with. Oh and I did used to feed complete to my dogs.

Christine, Spain

Unfortunately it appears that not all people can interpret labels correctly (I am one of them).  There are several reasons for this:

1 Labels do not carry full and complete information.  If an ingredient makes up less than a certain %age of the total there is no requirement to include it in the label.
2 Posters on Champdogs have already demonstrated on several occasions that they were under the impression that certain dog foods were mainly meat based; they came to this conclusion by equating the fact that because meat appears first in the list of ingredients it is therefore the most; it is not.  It is the largest SINGLE ingredient, however when you add up all the ways that manufacturers split the grains it turns out it is usually less than 50% and sometimes far less.
3 Crude protein content - I have to admit that I belong to the group of people that cannot interpret this number; mainly because I do not have a crystal ball :D  The percentage of crude protein does not inform me of the source of the protein, the completeness of it, the percentage which is plant/animal based nor the bio-availablity. 

I would be really interested to learn how you can though as this would help me in my analysis of commercial foods. 

Instead of turning this into a slanging match with who can make the funniest/wittiest/sarcy comments that`ll get personal lets debate the pros & cons of all ways of feeding :) I`ll tell you what I class as artificial foods, it`ll include human foods as well because the 2 overlap or rather the science does being that we know far more about our food & nutrition.
Ready meals frozen or fresh, take aways, square ham/cheese/meat, fizzy drinks, all those things in packets you just add water to, white bread, any of the chopped pork, most ready made pies, mince unless I buy from a good butcher, tinned stuff.
The intense farming that goes on now both meat & agricultural wise is so unatural & with all the chemicals/preservatives/colourings is no good for any of us least of all the animals. We see so much unhealth, allergies/asthma/excema & cancer that I think food is certainly suspect no 1.

Christine, Spain.

All I am asking is that I am not continually told that I feed my dogs rubbish and that those who wish to feed BARF get on with it and leave me alone. If you look at my original reply it was honest and not at all critical of any feeding method, the comments are from experience of the difficulty of getting it right and the loss of condition in my dogs convinced me I had got it wrong.  Because I am fed up to the back teeth of having my comments called sarcastic I will not comment on this topic any further.

*Or do you mean the plastic fruit or veg you use to decorate the table*??????? 

Christine, Spain.

Have to answer this, is that sarcastic? OK you tell me what is this artificial food we feed our dogs?

I can`t answer cos Jackie I`m laughing :D :D :D

This is all going a bit bonkers innit?

Well, since im up, far far far too early for my liking (body currently doing a night-shift, but the man fitting my new boiler woohoo is stopping me sleeping) here are some more thoughts from teh Em. Before i start, it is not my intention to be horrible to anyone.

What artificial foods are dogs fed???

Well, one of the factors that made me switch to a raw diet was the fact that this diet comes WITHOUT preservatives, additives, colourants, flavour enhancers etc. Most commercial diets, dry or tinned, HAVE to have these things added. Without the preservatives, they have no shelf life, because they are highly processed, usually to make best use of lower quality ingredients, they have to have vitamins and minerals added back to them. Because again of the highly processed nature (extruding, cooking at really high temperatures etc) they have to have fats and sugars (flavour enhancers) added to them or dogs wont eat them. Then they frequently have colourants added to make them appealing to the owner.

A raw diet hasnt got ANY of that. So that swayed me heavily in favour of raw.

Secondly, i noticed my dogs all had runny poop, and were passed a large quantity of undigested cereal matter. I changed foods several times, and this did not change.

Then it was pointed out to me, and i do not know WHY this hadnt occurred to me before, that the diets i was feeding were all high in cereals....and dogs do NOT eat cereals, so the answer to that was to remove the cereal element of the diet.

That didnt necessarily mean i had to choose a raw diet, there are dog foods out there with better ingredients, however for me, raw was the best choice, based on availability, price, and convenience. Its no good me feeding my dogs a food i a/cant afford, and b/cant keep in stock.

I dont doubt that dogs can and do thrive on commercial foods....but there again, there are people who are slim and fit and eat a disgusting diet of McDonalds, chocolate adn crisps (yes, i DO know someone like that, yes i also hate her the skinny cow!), some people, and some animals can make much better use of poorer nutrients than others, and dogs are a scavenging animal, designed to do just a that.

Em

Ok then lets change calling it artificial food to highly processed food :) & leaving alone the ingredients the start out with, it`s the way it`s processed. It`s first of all rendered down at such high temp that not only any bacteria is killed off but also vit`s & mins, to that they then have to add back the vit`s & mins with chemically made vits. Now do you agree with that`s how it`s done? They then add chemicals to preserve it, otherwise it`ll go off, artificial co;ourings to make it look/smell/taste good. Now if we know that eating highly processed foods which contain all those additives ourselves is not good healthwise, why would it be different for animals? I don`t think there`s a day goes by with without there being something on the news/papers about diet being related to some disease or other, just last night I was listening to 2 worries about diet on the tv. We know that the best way bodies utilise vits/mins which are vital to health, is to get them in their natural form from a variety of foodstuffs as they don`t act independently, they act together.
So thats the way I look at it, what about you :)

Christine, Spain.

Oh you lot just type tooooo quick for me!!!!!!! I`ve got to be the slowest typer on here :D

Christine Spain.

From Oxford Compact English Dictionary:
Artifical adj.
1. produced by human art or effort rather than originating naturally (an artificial lake)
2.  Imitation, fake (artifical flowers)

Natural Food n.
food without preservatives etc

Processed v.tr.
2.Treat (food esp. to prevent decay) (processed cheese)

Raw adj.
1.  Uncooked
2.  In the natural state, not processed or manufactured (raw sewage)

Has anyone noticed we now have FOUR Christine's on this thread - in *real* life I don't know any others!

No me neither Christine!

Christine, Spain.

OZZIE!!!!!!

Conditioning for a dog has to come from the inside.   You cannot expect a dog to have a shiny coat & good firm muscletone if you are feeding it rubbish!    My dogs have won very well in the ring, those I own and those I bred, all fed on completes from puppyhood after the tripe/growth plate problems I suffered with Asti as a 6 month old puppy.

What I wanted to point out was, people who feed BARF extoile the virtues of the diet as being fresh, natural, healthy etc.    I wanted to point out that most people who feed it will be feeding their dogs meat derived from intensively farmed animals.   Animals fed a diet of antibiotics, food stuff's made from other animals (And these animals are ALL ominivores!), reared for farm to table very, very quickly.  Look at the life of a chicken.  8/12 weeks from egg to table.   They have to grow quickly and all with man's help.   So this is natural is it?

Why does the government still issue warnings over cooking your chickens & turkey's thoroughly?  Because of the salmonella problems still prevelant.   At least these meat's in complete foods have been thoroughly cooked.

Vegetables are sprayed with insecticides and chemical fertilisers...these are all natural too?  

My dogs will receive from time to time, canned tuna, sardines or mackerel in their completes, the occasional boiled free-range egg.   At the moment they are having some tripe added.   

The result?  My dogs are very happy & healthy.  I have 4 ranging from almost 13 years old to 20 months.   

I have tried chicken wings as I overheard someone at Crufts saying that since they had been feeding their Munster on hicken wings, he was carrying a good amount of weight and I wanted to try Curtis on this.  The result?  One dog with rampant diarrhoea.   But at least it was "natural" diarrhoea!  ;)

You never did answer my question when you last mentioned the chicken wing giving curtis *rampant d/rear*
Was chicken wings the only thing he was being fed?

Christine, Spain.

Yes from the BARF diet.

Hi L/M, any raw food diet is more than feeding chicken wings, Billinghursts diet includes other foods as well, they all do & thats why I`m asking. It could have been anyone of those other things to cause an upset tum besides the wings.

Christine, Spain.

Christine & all BARF feeders,

All Curtis had, that day, that was different from his usual diet, was chicken wings.   I'm no scientist but I think even I can see a connection between that and an upset stomach!  

When I questioned the "natural state" of the BARF diet, I only did so because I wanted to make aware that it isn't a chemical/preservative free diet.    Wild dogs (Whose origins are from Africa) would be highly unlikely to eat chicken as their diet.  The chicken as we know it, is bred from the jungle fowl (Gallus gallus) which originates from south-east Asia.

Likewise a wild dog would be highly unlikely to eat beef.   A wild dogs diet contains meat sources derived from rabbit, hare, small birds, small deer or antelope.   The vegetation part of it's diet is eaten through consuming the contents of any of these varieties stomach's & intestines.   If they get to feed on anything larger it is usually the slim pickings left from what the wild cats don't want.

I don't have a problem with feeding a commercially produced dog food, you obviously do as you chose to feed the BARF way, I just felt it necessary after reading umpteen threads about this "Wonder diet" to make a few points of my own.    I have tried feeding chicken wings to my 4 dogs, one suffered an adverse reaction to them.  Yes I know that the BARF diet isn't all chicken wings but it is the main bulk of the diet, likewise if you decided to feed complete, that would be the main bulk of your dog's diet too.   I wouldn't have tried BARF and gave my dog a plate of liquidised veg!

All these folk on the board feeding organic, going by this I wonder why the farmers are still intensively farming?????

Okay,

so, IF someone feeds non organic raw food to their pet, then yes, the animal is pretty much at the same risk as humans are from intensively farmed, over medicated animals, and veg that is genetically modified and sprayed with all manner of crap.

But isnt that still better than feeding a standard quality dog food, lets say for example Pedigree? Yes, the raw diet has the downsides mentioned, but it STILL isnt then over processed, treated, flavoured, preserved, sweeted and coloured.

All the food i feed my dogs is fit for human consumption, bar i believe the AMP Mince, which i feed very rarely. When i can afford it, they get organic, which is more often than not (i dont eat much organic myself, the dogs get that!).

I dont think that what u find in a tin of Pedigree, or a bag of dry complete is fit for human consumption???

There are, as i have said before, complete diets out there that are far superior to most. However, i STILL disagree with this 'balanced diet in every mouthful' idea.....no one eats a balanced diet like that, balance is achieved over time, thats natural. Enjoyment of food is also natural, and i think thats a big part of a dog (or a persons) life, enjoying their food.

Em

If you could remember "Whats MY Line" hosted by Michael Aspel (?) you will have seen from time to time, people guesting on there whilst the panel had to decide their jobs....there are people employed to eat dog & cat food as tasters!

Well, here's something....

I was listening to the Scottish news on the radio today and it stated that Scottish children are the third most obese in Europe!   The countries that beat Scotland?    Malta & Italy......these "healthy" Latin countries! 

Unfortunately, like a lot of countries all over the world, they have been brainwashed into following the "westernised" fast food culture.  This is because when McDonalds etc was first introduced in very small areas it was, naturally, very expensive for the local culture.  It became a status symbol to eat this junk as a way of demonstrating that you could actually afford to eat crap :D

Interesting programme on Mexican cuisine on Radio 4, which has been echoed by very many other articles, that a previously very healthy diet has been ruined by the commercial interests of the large co-operations; for instance instead of serving fruit waters in restaurants and homes now everyone has become addicted to coca cola :(.  I have seen this same deterioration in diet and health in the Middle East.

A great shame.  Lets hope the fried Mars Bar does not get exported the same way!

I was trying to be diplomatic, obviously didn`t work but I`ll come right out & say Spain, thats the country I really meant :)

Christine, Spain.

Snap.  I too am a half and halfer, plus they get all the scraps too.

I have fed various completes (supplemented by our leftovers) over the years and the dogs have done pretty well on them, but best on those with a higher meat content.  When the labels have not had the info I have writen and asked for the percentage of meat meal or whatever animal protein.

I did go totally BARF for a year, as I had a nice butcher that sold a lot of free range, and supplemented what he had with minced chicken and trip and all the other additions to a balanced natural diet.

I had to stop as the rules on no beef on the bone meant my source of Raw Meaty Bones dried up, and I did not have room to store the quanity that would need to be bought to have delivered (I don't drive), and also my bitch was expecting a litter and I was just too busy to traipse with heavy bags of bones several times a week, sometimes I could get them sometimes not.  The butcher wasn't prepared to sift the bones to seperate the beef ones.

I then started the hunt for a Complete with a higher meat content than average and ended up with Arden Grange.

In my experience I found no difference in condition or health of my dogs on either feeding method, but they enjoyed the Raw much more.

I often gave a little minced chicken or trip with their complet after that, as I could get 25 or 30lb in my freezer.

At the begginning of last year I finally was able to get RAW delivered in small quanities, as long as I ordered a bag of comething too.  That is when I started half and half.  I then bought a tiny freezer that sits in my Dining Room (not a style statement!!) and now get about 10 weeks worth of RAW in there.  I use Two pounds a day between five of them, and they get 100g of complete each also (On complete only they got 200g a day).

So on all 3 feeding methods the dogs have been fit, had the same moulting patterns with same time to recoat, and muscle tone is the same.  The only glitch this year was the bitch who had a litter last Feb grew her coat back curly and creamy, but this ha0pens to bitches sometimes ater a litter.  She is moulting now, so hope she will return to her usual good colour and texture.  The two spayed bityches seem to have better textured coats this last year, but that muight just be coincidence.

As regards the raw being from processed animals etc, well that is exactly what would be processed and put into complete, so that doesn't get me to worked up, and we also eat all this ourselves.  In an ideal world I would feed organic to the dogs and my family, but I can't afford to.

Lilly,you still havnt answered my question ,so i am guessing you cant or more to the point,it is impossible to compare fresh to commercial.Like i have said dozens of times before i have nothing against commercial feeders infact i found a terrific commercial food today called "innova" i believe it has just become available in the u.k,the website is  www.naturapet.com   I will start supplementing my home made food with innova as no matter how much variety my dogs have i feel better giving them a bit of this every now and then just incase,but i would never feed any commercial diet as the SOLE food for my dogs,now i just have to convince my dogs to eat it which is not going to be an easy task.There are an awful lot of people out there that do half and half,which i think is the best way to go if one is unsure.To the commercial feeders why not supplement your dogs food with as much fresh as possible,the only problem will be once your dog tastes proper food it will be hard to get them back onto dry.

Stiiiilll waiting for your comparison reply lill.

christine

<<<A life of processed foods or a life of fresh foods?...

Well as you are feeding you dogs fresh chicken which is a protein source that the domesticated dogs' ancestors were never likely to eat, you're not feeding your dogs something their digestive systems are designed for!   Likewise beef bones & vegetables too.

I know that dogs aren't designed to eat complete foods either but I don't have a problem with this.  Over thousands of years man has evolved the dog species to serve alongside him, in doing so he has changed it's breeding habits, structural differences (Dew claws used to be a dog's thumb), it's size and so on.   It's diet will change too.   

Even back in the foundling days of Crufts, "dog mixers" for meat existed.  Processed dog foods are not as new as everyone would like to think.    Even in old books I have, they recommend slowly oven baking bread to use as a "mixer" for fresh or tinned meat for you dogs.

Most dogs are greedy sods and will eat whatever is put in front on them, so to answer your question.....I don't think they have a problem whatever they are fed!    I think it's their owners that do!

I give up! the answer to my question still remains unanswered,so i will give up on this debate!!As we all know there is no comparison.

christine

I give up! the answer to my question still remains unanswered,so i will give up on this debate!!As we all know anyway, there is no comparison.

christine