I see your email says K9trainer, I read your post re: crates/cages Can I ask ?you say your dog are not crated for more than 3hrs when you take you extended lunch break you come home,after lunch are you back at work ?are they crated again? are they crated at night? so this equals a long time in a cage, this is a hell of a long time to spend in a cage ! please do correct me if I'm wrong? Also if you are as your email suggests a trainer do you recommend cages as traning tool.In view of your dogs bad experience does she go in a cage still? As you may see I'm not the greatest lover of cages but accept that used correctly they have a purpose.
Aso if a person has seven dogs is it ideal to have them crated why not a nice sized kennel and run !.

Because of increasing problems with neighbours over noise, dogs barking, many of us are unable to use outdoor kennels to keep our dogs when we are not there, as we have no way of being sure they will not bark, or even be provoked into barking, by those neighbours who are sensitive to dogs barking, or just do not like them.

I have a friend with a very large town garden, asbout a third of an acre. she has kennels and runs outside, but cannot use them, as over the years she has had enough of neighbour problems, and a lane runds the lenght of the garden, and passing kids think it fun to wind the dogs up! so what has she now! Four crates cluttering up her living room, to put the dogs that don't like each other! They and the others who are in house loose, are let out into the garden supervised, and uswhered back in if anyone barks!

This is another angle on crates/cages then, dont dogs bark when they are in them?
Do you find as someone earlier suggested that its an easy way for people to keep far too many dogs?
I'm only interested in peoples opinions,lets remember hundreds of people visit this site and do not post ! they will read on subjects and hopefully decide sensibly on wether or not to follow advice on here,I should imagine as I do that people will either rush out and buy a cage or NOT as the information filters through.

mattie

My boys don't make a sound when they are in their crate. Other than the occasional snores and sleepy wuffs as they are chasing in their dreams etc :D

Pam n the boys

Yes my dogs are crated again when I return to work, but only for a very short time. My husband who starts work earlier than me, comes home about 3 - 3.30pm. My eldest daughter is often at home for some time during the day so they are not crated then. So as you can gather, my dogs are not crated regularly for hours on end. They are all happy, healthy, well-balanced dogs and crating has no psychological effect on them - they see the crates as their dens. :) I do not recommend crates as a matter of course but if ever I do, it is with strict instructions re - their use. I have a neighbour who 'over-crates' her dog, sadly although I have offered advice, she hasn't taken it. :(
Yes my dogs (3 of them) are crated at night! They sleep just like we do and believe me, come 10-ish, they are in their crates of their own accords anyway! I have to rouse them to send them out to do business!
I do have a secure kennel and run. Two of the dogs are in their when i am working but the others are not because they would be too noisy and as a Dog Control Officer, (posh term for Dog Warden!!!) I do not want any noise complaints being made against me! I can't quieten them if I am not at home.
The Working Cocker that I mentioned does not belong to me. I rescued her and rehomed her to a good friend whose husband works her but she is a pet first and foremost. Yes, she still has a crate which she uses willingly funnily enough, as her bed! But it is rarely used to secure her. We all thought she would hate the crate but no. All her teddies and treats get taken in there too!
Incidently, my dogs never make a noise in their crates, I have asked the neighbours who have said they have never heard a thing unless someone has knocked at my door or delivered something. :)

I would not use a kennel due to the fact that dogs are stolen from gardens etc. I'm in Devon and 5 labradors have been stolen in this area in the last 6 months. I wouldn't even pop out for 10 minutes and leave my dogs in a kennel and run.
The police believe these dogs are stolen to order and there are spaniels going missing too!
Just before christmas a boxer and her week old litter were stolen and have never been heard of since.
It's a sad fact that dogs are big business for thieves.

Nicolla are yours'crated' as well?

Mattie, I have to agree with you, I am not keen on the idea of shutting dogs in crates, had a friend who got a rescue Saluki and when it started chewing the house while she was at work this was the advice given to her. Ok they may work if the dog is used to them from puppyhood but not an adult dog.
Another thing that has always worried me is what happens if you are burgled, the dogs are in effect trapped and knowing the vandalism that is done sometimes is doesn't bear thinking about what some of these individuals could do to a trapped dog. Ingrid

What about fire. Ok they might not survive, but at least the have a fighting chance if they can move around a bit.

Leigh you read my mind what about Fire? what about as is said above being trapped when burglars came,the cruelty that could be inflicted OMG more worry.tell you what wish some of our crate/cage devotees would spend a few hours in one !!! perhaps could do to raise money for rescue :)

As a labelled crate/cage devotee (???) I had also better stop locking my doors at night in case we have a fire? If I was out, and all my dogs left to roam the house, heaven forbid we should have a fire anyway cos' damn me if I haven't taught them to unlock doors to get out!!!! This is getting sadly ridiculous and I am not going to waste anymore time on this thread. :rolleyes:

I have to agree with you Caroline, I mean - talk about scaremongering. I agree that used inappropriately a crate can be cruel but it can also be a very useful piece of equipment.

I have 3 children under 6 and a 13wk old Cocker Spaniel puppy. Isabelle is only 16mths old and takes great delight in hand feeding Holly and generally being a nuisance. Holly is very good with Isabelle but she does need to feel secure and have an area where she can rest without being bothered, or tripped over :D.

Holly goes in her crate to be fed and to be kept contained whilst I take the children to school. I'm out for 1hr in the morning and 1hr in the afternoon, and I don't trust Holly to be left in the house unsupervised. She also sleeps in her crate overnight.

All of my children have used a playpen during the day to keep them safe and they have all slept in a cot overnight for the same reason. I really can't see the difference with using a crate for Holly.

Fiona

One final thought - perhaps if new owners were instructed in the proper use of a crate, less dogs would be handed into rescue because they were destructive.

I agree with you Caroline - this thread is getting silly. Lets just all agree that as with most things in life there are two schools of thought and there is no distinct right one - they both have equal merits and pitfalls.

Handbags away please ladies and gents :D

Pam n co

My house is probably not much bigger than a 'suitably sized' crate as its tiny and I have absolutely no problems living in it at all neither do any of my dogs have problems living in their crates. The alternative is to rehome 4 of them which means that 4 really desparate dogs possibly on their last few days wont get a home but maybe thats what you want.

BEC I presume you aimed that at me ,so dont be silly why should I want you to rehome your dogs? I lived in a two up two down once with four dogs.
I take exception to the remark !

It's a simple matter of having the number of dogs you can handle. When you reach that number you stop! For various reasons I believe I can only keep two so that is the number I stick at. If that means, as it sometimes does that I have two old dogs, well, thats life. They have given me pleasure while in their prime and I will stick with them in their old age. It then means I have no dog to work I know but as I said, thats life! Anyone with more dogs than they can handle is not doing their dogs a favour.

John

John,

Couldn't agree more.

I also have 2 dogs and a pain in the a**e 3 year old child and as much as I would like more dogs I know that it would not be the right thing for me to do.

Karen

I think people have missed the point of my posting. SOmeone said how would you like living in a crate your should try it for a few hours. I was pointing out that I do live in a very tiny house not dissimilar to a crate! I actually own 7 dogs but If I didnt have crates then I'd have to lose 4!

You live in the house of your choice Bec, no one makes you live there . Your dogs live where you put them. I cannot comment on individual cases but I know I would hate to live in a cage to which I did not hold the key to. You can open the door and go for a walk in the garden or down the road but a dog in a cage cannot. I know a dogs nature is to curl up in as smaller space as it can get into. Part of its defence mechanism, back to a wall means it cannot be attacked from that quarter but in the wild no animal would want to feel trapped. We complain about zoo animals being caged, Bears stir crazy and pacing, veal cattle in crates, but then we keep dogs in even smaller cages! Sorry Bec but I think the arguments don’t stand up.

John

I'm surprised to hear you humanising dogs John - just because humans prefer to have their freedom to come and go, doesn't mean our canine friends do. For many dogs a crate is the only opportunity they have to 'switch off' from the demands of living with us human creatures.

Thank you for your support! :) I did feel singled out rather and resented the 'attack'. I abhor crate abuse. I too have seen firsthand what it can do. But at the end of the day we are ALL entitled to our opinions, and should feel free to express them without others forcing their opinions down our throats. :(
I use crates! My dogs are happy, bouncy and well balanced and have suffered no psychological effects! Ain't I cruel to them!!!!!????? I also (shock, horror) live in a normal sized, 2 bedroomed bungalow with average sized gardens! My dogs are well trained, (uh oh! Is that wrong too?) and are probably less bother than most peoples single dogs!!! (Slaps own wrists, bad owner that I am) I am tired, been catching dogs that are let out to stray, (I know! Wicked me! Curtailing them of their freedom!) so I am off to bed before I say summat I will regret!
N.B; I fundraise for local shelter, also have worked in shelter, ensure my strays I collect go to a well run shelter that won't put them to sleep cos their faces don't fit & also sponsor a dog from NCDL, etc etc. (Not so bad after all and no! I do not want a medal!)

When burglars come, they seem to either let the dog out so it gets lost, or steal it to get money!

The troulbe is, you can't cover every eventuality.

In a fire a dog would survive best low on the floor anyway, rather than maybe panicking and looking out the window..

Lindsay

Theres a challenge for someone put your money where your mouth is and go in a suitably szed cage for a few hours,you can come out for a wee but you can take in a drink and your favourte toys,proceeds to any dog rescue you prefer,put me down for twenty quid!.any one else sponsor this?

I'll go with you on that one Mattie.
I can't really see where kids in cots or playpens come into the equation, there should always be a suitable adult on the premises with them.
When a friend of mine had a fire a neighbour was able to open the door and the dogs ran out, I doubt they would have entered the house to open crates first.
Yes they can have a place if properly used and the dog is trained from a puppy but not as in the Saluki's case just to protect property with an already upset dog. Ingrid

Thankyou Ingrid I appreciate that,and I dont think this is silly,each to their own if you think ts a silly topic ignore it!

Mattie

I don't think this thread is silly at all but a very serious subject. Everyone is entitled to their own opioion (sorry about the spelling)and its not nice to say someone's reply is silly.

I happen to think that crates and cages for dogs are wrong in general, and by now your all know that. It is a vaild point if there an emergency how would you address it?

Some of you will have to understand that a lot of these people on here have had to deal with so called crated dogs as rescues and the miss use of them?

I don't think I would want to sit in a crate all day while mum and dad were out at work? If they left the door open for me so I could get out and stretch get my drink and go back for a sleep that would be great. Why can't you leave the door open? If they use the crate as a bed then why shut them in? If the cause damage to the house then why have them or why have they not been trained not to? To me these are vaild points and most of us have already addressed them?

Julieann

Oh and Mattie this reply was to the other person who said this thread was silly, I was agreeing with you and Ingrid!

Julieann

Thankyou

As I have said before im not one for using crates my dogs don't have one.
I grew up with dogs most of my other family members have dog/dogs and as far as im aware none have ever been crated.

Also like Mattie and Leigh I have seen first hand the damage that has been done to a dog/dogs by overuse of a crate.

Karen

Agree about the fire problem but what gets me are my friends who crate their dogs with collars on. Have heard stories of dogs hanging themselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mattie I'm home all day with the dogs, so don't really have a need to crate, the dogs are my life.
I do have crates for the pups for when the adult rotti's play with me in the lounge, simply to keep them safe. Don't know whether you've ever seen rotti's play but it's rough!!! The crate is in the lounge so puppies still have my attention. Pups play separately from the adults as I sure you know we don't want lab puppies knocked by the older dogs.
I understand what you stay about crates as I have a rescue dog lab X who has been kept permanently kept in a shed, apart from being let out to be beaten. His last owners very kindly broke his legs and kicked his teeth in for him. He is now 8 yrs old (lived here 6 yrs) and still hates strangers but who can blame him. He can be very nasty to people BUT I love him to bits.
When I've sold pups, if asked about crates I say NOT to use them.

ONe thing i really hate on this board is the way people get attacked....yes, attacked!!! If you happen to beleive something different, then my goodness you are chipped away at until - what? The individual never visits the board again?

Caroline had the decency to be honest about her crating, and believe me she looks after her dogs better than most look after their children!!!

Mattie i am sorry, you feel strongly about crating, but refuse to discuss the matter calmly and instead resort to insults.

The whole point of this board is to DISCUSS AND TO SHARE IDEAS - isn't it? Or is it just to ram ideas down peoples throats and then slam them when they don't toe the line?

I am very disappointed in this board today.

And sickened by the petty and puerile little insults. Grow up all of you!!!

LIndsay

Im afraid I agree with Lindsay and several other posters. It is obvious that Mattie does not particularly like crates as they are open to abuse by people who do not know how to use them. That is a fair point. However , a crate is a tool , and can be used well or badly. This does not make ALL people who use crates bad people....nor does it mean that anyone here who says they use a crate is open to to critisism and being forced into defending their point of view.

It would make far more sense in my view to offer advice on the proper use of crates than to critisise people for using them.

This thread is threatening to descend the same way as the Wolfdog thread ....for Gods sake people ...live and let live ..offer advice by all means but allow people to have a different opinion to your own

Melody

Lindsay

I agree entirely - but certain people here seem to refuse that there are different opinions.

Jullianne

I said this thread was getting silly and I stand by that. The subject matter is not, but the hurling of insults is. Mattie called Bec silly and also suggested that all those who use crates spend time in them themselves. Sorry but that is not discussing the pros and con's of an argument in a sensible fashion but insulting those with a different point of view.

All

This thread is also becoming very difficult to follow due to the number of postings etc and I cannot see how it is helping anyone only harming this board and the quality of information and advice given here.

Normally Leigh would have stepped in here and asked people to stop but as she was also invloved I guess she can't really do that.

As for the question of fire - god forbid any of us should have to face that but how about this scenario - this is a true story that recently happened to some people I know. A 14 year old boy, Gary, was caught in a house fire. He would not leave the house as he wanted to save his dogs, they were'nt crated. He didn't know where they were, they had panicked when all was going off, they didn't bark, presumably the smoke stopped them, he couldn't find them. They all died, Gary AND his dogs. Personally, I don't believe in looking back to what might have happened if - but in this case I'll make an exception.

Had Gary known where the dogs were, had they been safe in a crate just maybe they would have all survived. Maybe they wouldn't, we'll never know.

So before you go shouting the virtues of free running dogs in an extreme emergency situation, perhaps you might wish to think of the other side of being uncrated in such a situation too.

Pam

Good Morning.

Can we get some things straight :-)

Mark and I both have our own lives to lead! Consequently, we do not work or watch the board 24 hours a day ~ 7 days a week! If you look at the timings of most of the posts you will see that they were during last evening. Both Mark and I were actually 'off board' and leading our lives!!

>>Normally Leigh would have stepped in here and asked people to stop

Yes, Leigh or MARK would have intervened had they been aware of what was happening and had it been necessary to intervene :-)

>>but as she was also invloved I guess she can't really do that.

There seems to be a misconception that says that Leigh is not allowed to have an opinion, especially if it is in direct contrast to certain factions on this board. It appears that I am only allowed to question things that I don't agree with or ask for clarification on certain subjects. On the remaining subjects I am not allowed to question, ask for clarification or even comment without being accussed of intimidation and censorship :-( Since working for Mark, I have infact 'kept out' of many of the discussions on the board. Joining in when I have felt strongly about the subject matter, or when a subject has gone off course (part of my job). I am very conscious of my position and try very hard to remain neutral.

Todate,the consequences of these accusations have been to technically 'muzzle' me. Thankfully, Paul has managed to make me see what has been happening here and I am sorry but I will not be 'muzzled' if I feel that there is another angle to look at a subject from. Just because some of you don't like my views is irrelevent. Every one of you gets to post your own opinions, this is a fact :-) but by doing so, then you must expect that you might be challenged on what you say. This is how the forum works :-)

I am sorry, if you feel my comment about 'fire' is irrelevent and 'scaremongering'. I can assure you that it was not added for that reason but again, to add another point of discussion! I am also saddened that some of you feel the issue of 'fire' is something to be ridiculed, rather than discussed :-(

Now I am pretty sure that as is normal, certain individuals will now take great delight in the fact that I have dared to speak my mind and the accusations will start all over again and no this is not paranoia, its is sadly a fact as we proved in another thread yesterday :-(

Pam I am very sorry to hear about your friends death. How truly awful. :-( I am sure that we all have related stories to tell of 'fire deaths', RTA's etc. In some cases the cages will have helped and in some cases they will have hindered. Again it all comes down to which angle you look at things from and personal experience.

Now I am hand~bagging this thread until such a time that Admin can review it,even though I will now be accused of not allowing freedom speech or some other misdemeanour ... and no that isn't sarcasm, just stating a fact :-(

[email Leigh@champdogs.co.uk]Leigh[/email]