evening all :)

as my border collie previous brilliant recall has all fell on deaf ears at the moment (hes nearly 7 mths old now) im wondering on maybe getting a clicker or a whistle even to assist me in trying to get this back to where i can let him off his lead/long line. which would you recommend best and why? he just likes to jump on anyone that passess and i want to be able to train him to walk with me without this but to be completely obedient to my sit and stay etc when i say and having read up on these 2 devices i think they may help, just not sure which would be best. He does know sit/stay etc but he has selective hearing at the moment when other people or dogs are around lol as many on this site have as ive been reading recently.

Also can anyone enlighten me on what 'dummies' are and are used for? just curious

many thanks in advance to all that respond :0)

nails :0)

I'm interested in any replies you might get as I was bought a clicker for christmas and haven't the first clue about using it :o I know the theory but my timing seems out or something :rolleyes:

My older dogs recal seems to have slipped since we got Dizzy and I'm giving the whistle a go but we've only just started so I'll let you know in a couple of weeks. (BTW I'm not mixing them just using the whistle on solo walks with sam for recal only)

As for the 'dummy' it's a thing used to teach dogs (mostly gundogs I thnk) to retrieve. I've never used one but I'm sure someone will help out with the details and pros and cons :)

I've never used a clicker to train the recall but do use a whistle.  A lot of people find the whistle a good way to train a good recall.  If you do a search, you should find a lot of posts explaining how to go about it, if you choose that route.  I'm sure someone can help with the clicker if you wish to go down that route.

Dummies are used for training the retrieve for gundogs. 

Helen

I used a clicker to train my dogs to recall. Although it helped it was no quick fix i'm afraid. ONce the dog has been trained to the clicker, i.e. when the dog hears a click he knows a treat will follow, therefore he has done something you like, you simply add it into recall training. Starting with the dog on a long line, call the dog to you once in an excited tone, (if he doesn't respond the first time don't call again, just give the line a little tweak to get his attention and show him a tasty treat or toy), when he reaches you click and treat. As the recall improves on the line you can start letting him off and follow the same procedure. The click signals that he has performed the behaviour you want. I have always added the click at the end but i see no reason why you can start by clicking the moment he turns and begins to run to you as this will make him more likely to come as he knows theres definately a treat on the way, but it has to be timed right.
If when off the lead you call and he doesn't come first time, i find that if you turn and run in the opposite direction, even a few steps the dog will get a sense of urgency and worry at being left and return immediately (especially a BC) so you don't teach the dog that he can ignore your first call by calling him twice.
I would reccommend getting a book on clicker training, (i used one by Karen Pryor) and if possible go to a training class that uses clicker training as they can show you how to use it effectively. Clickers are great for teaching all kind of tricks and behaviours, so i would definately reccommend it.

Don't know whether what I've been told is right, but you shdn't. just click for the dog getting back to you, you should click it for going out, then for it coming back to you and eventually for it doing the perfect recall.  A clicker should not be used just for the end result at the beginning.  I'm sure that there are more experienced people than me as I've only been going training for the last 3 weeks.

Come on you clicker trainers, help us!!

Well it depends.  If you were teaching an obedience recall - sit and wait - come - sit in front - then I would backchain and teach the sit in front first but for teaching the dog to respond to recall out and about I would use shaping which means to click and reward anything that is moving towards the eventual goal.  So the dog that turns round and looks at you would get a click.  Off course if he's clicker savvy then he's gonna come for the treat anyway.  If the dog is getting clicks for coming all the way back then I would toss the treat (or toy) out so that after he's gone after it you can click for coming back again.  I don't know that I'd click for going out unless I was teaching a send away.  Targeting is always useful.  My dogs have a touch command.  My hand with their nose or my foot with their paw.  And I've just taught the puppy 'in front' - stand in front of me whichever way I turn which works equally as well for recall. Not forgetting retrieve - the dog that retrieves always comes back. 

Sally

It is not an "either or" situation! :D  They both have different purposes. 

The whistle is instead of a voice command; the advantage of a whistle is that it carries further, is consistent, and the dog will respond to anyone using a whistle once it is trained to it (hence the ability of people to handle ready trained gundogs and sheepdogs).  If the dog does not obey your voice it is equally unlikely to obey a whistle unless you train it correctly.

The clicker is a signal to the dog that it has done something correctly and that reinforcement for producing that behaviour will follow just as surely as night follows day.  Clicker system is a method of training dogs by the operant conditioning method

around 6 - 8 months is the traditional time when all dogs hit the "up yours" button; previously smug owners of "perfect" puppies become downcast at this time forgetting that dogs, just like humans, go through the "kevin" stage :D  It can take at least 18 mnths to for the average person to train a 99.9% recall; it does not happen overnight as the dog must be conditioned to return whatever the distraction!

Having an out of control dog that jumps up on passers by will not make either you or your dog flavour of the month; I am certainly less than impressed when "bombed" by them!

A very good way of learning the clicker method if there is not a clicker trainer near you (check out the APDT site first) is to buy the Motivation Movie by Joanna Hill available from her via Obedience Uk etc.

Dummies are used as retrieve articles for gundogs traditionally.

thanks for all the replys everyone i have also used the search facility and found some good information. I think i will be getting a whistle as they sound like what i wanted

many thanks again to you all,
nails :0)