We are looking for some advice please. We have decided to get a new addition to our family and have contacted two breeders and asked to be put on waiting lists. We realise we will have to wait a long time and are happy to do so for the right pup with health checks etc.

What confused us today though was whilst browsing through the exchange & mart we came across an ad advertising pups that had been champion sired. Surely reputable breeders have waiting lists and all the pups would be accounted for and the owner of a champion dog would not let them breed with any bitch? We are not contacting this breeder but just wondering why they are advertising and if it is at all likely they are genuine?

Thanks,

JB :)

Hi
although I would not buy a pup from E&M or alike reputable breeders do at times have to advertise.The breeder of my older boy advertises and she is very well respected and offers all the usual after care and advice that a good breeder should.
Do not be fooled by 'champion sired'...does not mean it will be a good pup.Health checks and a well thought out pedigree is more important IMO than 'champion sired' or XXX no of champions in a pedigree.
Phone the breeder if your interesred and speak to her and ask questions...you should be able to talk to someone your going to buy a pup off...if not how are you going to ask for her help if you need it?
Good luck in your search and bare in mind that sometimes its worth waiting...you've got many years to spend with your pup,a few months won't make any difference
Archer

personally I would not want a pup that had been advertised, but then I am in a lucky position of having enough contacts to get a good dog from word of mouth. But better to be able to get a pup from a non advertiser than one who potentially could be a "peddler" JMO

.......but if you have a larger litter than the number of people on your waiting list or don't have the right colour/sex combinations how are you supposed to let potential owners know that you have puppies available?  In an ideal world the number of pups and potential owners will match but this rarely works out exactly.

Word of mouth is all very well if enough words leave enough mouths to reach the correct ears but this does not always happen.

well, colour to me means nothing, no dog is a bad colour IMO, provided it is not an health issue, but the simple answer to breeding a litter to be placed by word of mouth is to NOT breed unless more homes are lined up than potential pups.
Too many litters are bred purely for profit, or the hope that that one "winner" will come along. I know of plenty of people that never need to advertise thier stock, even in a breed as saturated as the SBT!

In over 20 years of living in a household where occasional litters have been bred never once have my parents or I had to advertise, maybe we're lucky, I don't know!

I don't think theres anything wrong with advertising as long as checks are done on the potential purchaser.In a breed like mine where demand is limited since we're not a 'popular' breed but bitches can produce good size litters it is, I would imagine ,very hard to get a waiting list long enough to ensure all pups are spoken for before they are born.At the end of the day as long as the breeder takes care about who they home their pups with and are willing to take back unwanted dogs later in life and give advice when needed they are responsible to my mind...having a waiting list for 8 or 9 pups might be ideal but this is not an ideal world.
Archer

Don't think people in well known breeds always realise how hard it is to sell puppies from a breed that is not common or well known. It is impossible to get a waiting list of even 6 people because not only does your bitch have to have 6 puppies, she has to have 4 dogs & 2 bitches or whatever!! Just doesn't happen! Having said that, I have advertised puppies in the past, but not now because I've never sold a single puppy this way, in the end it has been by word of mouth. Most of these puppies have not only had a Champion sire, but a champion dam as well - doesn't mean a thing to most people who are looking for a companion dog.

archer what breed of dogs do you have?

Archer and I have Elkhounds as does Brainless and Sally who's forum name escapes me. Now conversely I was waiting nearly 2 years for my last pup and Archer is still waiting but we know what we want in the way of the pups background and there is the problem a large proportion of Elkhound owners show and have there requirements and Elkhounds are not easy dogs for the first time dog owner nor the family who have owned a different breed and expect Elkhounds to be just another dog. So we have a situation where people in the breed can't get what they want and those with pups can't find suitable homes.

As Jackie says I have Elkhounds..2 at the min and been waiting a long time for number 3!! I could have had a pup by now but have been waiting for the right one and with registrations averaging less than 150 per year its not been easy.
Archer

Okay, lets put it another way.

What do you consider constitutes advertising.

Someone asked on here the other day about Dobermann Pups - I emailed them (no reply as usual) but would consider that I was advertising someone else's litter by letting an enquirier know about them.

Is putting a website up advertising

Is the fact the owner of your stud dog has a website or happens to be on a club committee so gets enquiries that he passes onto you advertising?

Is listing your litter with the KC advertising

Is having your name listed on the Champdogs Breeders list advertising

Is putting "win" ads in breed or dog magazines advertising

or is advertising simply paying to put adverts in papers and magazines when you have puppies

Well when I wanted a Golden Retriever pup, some 15yrs ago, I had no idea where to begin looking, for my sins I bought a copy of Exchange and Mart
Sifted through the many adverts for Goldens, many offering more than one breed, who seemed obvious puppy farmers. We decided to contact a responsible sounding breeder.........in Aberdeenshire. We live in Sussex. We flew up to see the pups, in a remote part of the county, chose our Bree, then asked about when we could collect her to take her home, however the chap concerend was adamant, he personaly delivered his pups, and if he saw anything he was uneasy about, well the pup went straight home!!

So it's not always a poor reflection on a breeder, just because they advertise their pups, and not always in the  most celubrious publications :)

liberty :)

"the simple answer to breeding a litter to be placed by word of mouth is to NOT breed unless more homes are lined up than potential pups."

And what happens to all the potential buyers when the bitch only has 6 pups instead of the 12 that were on the list? They are all left disappointed and have to endure another (long) wait until they can get a pup. I think that having 6/7 pups pre-booked is enough, as at least they are likely to get a pup.

Char

As Anwen says,what do you do about the sex of puppies...if you have 3 males and 3 females booked and the bitch produces 6 dogs you now have 3 males left with no homes despite having had 6 potential buyers,...as I said its not a perfect world
Archer 

I think perhaps the bigger issue here is where the pups are being advertised. I know what I mean, but don't really know how to put it. Perhaps it seems a bit like advertising a car or a piece of furniture for sale in that type of publication, and that it could attract the 'whim' buyer in a similar way to pet shops. I'm not saying that is always the case, but I would have thought that a breeder would advertise more in Dog magazines. If I were a breeder (I'm not and never will be) I am sure that I would feel more comfortable about approaches for a pup from that source, than something like Exchange & Mart or Loot.
Kat

Hmmmm.  I know extremely reputable dealers who have advertised in Exchange and Mart and Adtrader etc and I know some extremely dodgy ones who advertise in the dog press!

I do not breed and never intend to but looking at it from a common sense point of view (and from both sides of the coin) If I were a breeder I would probably want the biggest market so that I could sift the wheat from the chaff; also if you do have an unexpectedly large litter of 12+ it can be difficult to find homes for them all.  No matter how many potential clients you have bet on 50% of them disappearing (pet market) and there is already the sex problem mentioned.

If I were a potential customer I may have researched the breed ad infinitum and decided to have a pup but unfortunately there are none available at the time from the kennels you had planned and then find one elsewhere.

I think we are concentrating on the wrong end here; more important to educate breeders and buyers on the importance of health checks, rearing etc etc etc than where you saw the ad!

Good points! Though it could be that it's easier to get a bigger number of buyers (and quickly too) for a number of pups with it not mattering who they are. As you say, good and bad in both areas. Health and temperament are most important. I think that it's a mistake to assume that your or my logic applies to other people. Whichever way you do it, its a bit of a minefield finding a good breeder.
Kat

Hi Kat

Just as it is a minefield finding a good breeder, for us breeders it is also a minefield finding a good purchaser and they can come from anywhere.  First time buyers don't always know where to start looking and it is up to us breeders to educate and sort out who we are happy for our pups to go to.

I frequently get phone calls from people looking for pups, if I am not in the middle of something I try to take the time to talk to them before I pass on anyone else's  details and include information on health testing.  I can frequently feel people shutting off and just wanting to get me off the phone asap as all they want is a cheap pup, regardless of where it comes from.

Asvertising a numerically small breed in the weekly dog papers which are subscribed to by folkin dogs is largely preaching to the converted, as most will know ho to find a pup through club/breeder channels.  The monthly dog mags work so far ahead that you need to get the advert in by time bitch is mated, not knowing if a litter will be born, or what they will be.

Local advertising is far more immiediate, and it is the vetting that is important.  also the paper is often the first place a family will check when looking for a companion.  Most of the pups coming to our training club are bought this way, some from good breeders, and some from not so good (like the ones who sold two dobe and two boxer pups to two inexpereienced families).

My last litter is an example.  I had more than the four pups born booked, but then one homing fell through.  I now had to decide how to advertise an 9 week pup, dog paper advert would appear in two weeks, local paper in a week, and monthly publication in 8 weeks!  I opted for the dog paper and internet website, and telling the club secretary.  the day I agreed to let the pup go to someone from initial internet enquiry I had 3 other diasappointed people who would have had him, one who wnated to show who had just seen the advert in dog Wiorld.  I wo7uld have liked the show home, but had already agreed to let the nice family have him, and passed on the other enquiries, one got a pup from a fellow breeder in Yorkshire and another somewhere els, the fourth couldn't get a pup.  Presume they are on someones list or gone for another breed.

Have to say I agree Kerioak, especially if you breed infrequently the grapevine may not know what you are planning? 

I do not like to take bookings in advance for more than 2 or 3 of each sex, as I don't like to keep people hanging on in case they are disappointed.  A breeder who will soon havew another litter to offer a puppy from may be justified on taking on as many enquiries as come, but I don't think this is fair on the potential buyer when they are low on a list.

I would sooner tell them of a fellow breeder whose bitch has already whelped.is further along than mine in the beleif what goes around comes around.  If I pass them an puppy enquiry they will do same when I have pups.

A;sp ifg decent breeders don't advertise that their pups are from Hip Scored (other health tests) parents, this leaves the new owners with only the choice of the commercial/haphazaed litter breeder.

On the rare occasion I have advertised in the local I have had 4 excellent homes, though one had met me previously, and had just lost their old dog and answered the advert.  I have also been able to put really interested parties onto the breed club for a puppy of someone else.

Hi, well, we do find it necessary to advertise sometimes as well.  We always have a waiting list, but often we will have show orders when only pet pups available, and vice versa.  And of course colour and sex come into it too.  I know a previous poster said a good dog is never a bad colour, but some people want a pet of a particular colour, and some show people are looking for compatability to breed with existing dogs - not all of our colours are ideal to intermingle!  We also have a small but persistent group of people in the breed who advise newbies not to attempt to buy show pups from us as we will keep the best for ourselves!  So, we occasionally use the KC pup register, petplan, and Dogs Today.  Sometimes use the local press (usually due to cancellations or changed plans) when a pup is ready to go.  And, recently have tried on-line ads (thanks,, Champdogs!)  I think, giving people hard and fast rules about which breeders will advertise where is dangerous - just becasue somone uses advertising in Loot or E & M should not absolutely brand them a Puppy Farmer, nor is Dogs World or the KC puppy register proof that the breeder is ethical.  Ok, it may be a warning signal that things need checking out closely, perhaps this is the way we need to steer enquirers?
bye
Gwen

Thank you Gwen, was begining to wonder if I lived in a different world to some people who have crystal balls, or have bitches that whelp pups according to order!

People find i8t hard enough to find and identify a good breeder, restricting their ability to find us even further seems silly.

At one time when our breed was at it's registration peak *400 in about 1970) some had gotten into puppy farme5rs hands around the London area.  That is when our breed rescue started.  I beleive at the time the club paid for a regular advert in Exchange and Mart to steer folk the right way.

Judging by the posts on this board the biggest problem is the ignorance of the puppy buyer, and not knowing where to go.

Perhaps if more Breed Clubs used the extensive coverage of the E & M  to guide people to the responsible breeders, this would help puppy buyer avoid the unscrupulous breeders.
I too was ignorant, but lucky with my chosen breeder.

liberty

At one time I seem to remember the E & M had the option to have "vet checked" included in your ad and for this you had to fill in a fairly long form and also your vet had to fill in part of it and send it to them.

I imagine this was in an attempt to improve their image

Thanks for the input from the breeders side. I hadn't really considered the problems faced, especially with the timing of the Dog Mags! I appreciate how you all must feel at homing a puppy, that's how I know I could never breed, even if I wanted to. I'm quite sure that no-one would ever be good enough :) Can I just ask, purely as a pet dog owner, what happens if you can't sell a pup?
Kat

Hi Kat, before the bitch is mated I assume that I'll keep all or any the pups I can't find potentially excellent homes for and I think that most reputable breeders have the same caveat in the back of their minds.

On advertising, my first litter went entirely on word of mouth and through the breed club, but I advertised the next one (local & area papers) because a very experienced breeder said she felt she got better homes that way. I was very pleased with the homes from the ads and had to agree that they were at least as good as the WOM ones. Now I at least put a listing on the KC site even if all the pups are booked because in small breeds so many people find it very difficult to get hold of someone who will advise them and send them to others who do have prospective or available pups.

I would also like to pick up on something Jellybean said.  She is on the waiting lists of two breeders, imagine they both breed at once because JB makes up the number of potential homes they require before breeding their next planned litter.  At least one of those breeders is likely to lose a potential home becuase the other one has already had a suitable pup.  This is another way that breeders loose potential homes

Thanks for all your replies and views. We have been in touch with one of the breeders we originally contacted and will hopefully be getting a pup from them this year. It was very interesting reading all your views and our conclusion has been that no matter where you purchase your puppy from, just make sure they are reputable and are a breeder for the right reasons.

JB :)

congrats ...hope you get your pup soon and spend many long happy years together
Archer