I've read that too Jacki, so can only assume it's correct. Instead of just a booster, the dog will need the full course.

Hi jacki & J/G, you may have heard it or read it but it is not true that it is necessary to start the course all over again, there is absolutely no proof to that myth at all. In fact the opposite is true, have a look in the links further up.

Christine, Spain.

I was meaning from the boarding kennel's point of view, Christine. If there is a gap in the dog's vaccine book, they will usually demand the dog has the complete vaccine course, just like a puppy, before they will board the animal. Whether or not it's necessary for health is another question entirely - but it is usually a kennelling requirement.
:)

Absolutely true. If a dog goes over 3 weeks past its due date for booster, should it need to go into kennels, it would have to have the full puppy course again. Some kennels accept unvaccinated dogs, but whether or not you'd want to use them is another matter. I'd be happier to see kennels that accept dogs that have had full puppy course and boosters every so often that one that accepted all unvaccinated dogs. I dunno - its a difficult one.

Sorry J/G, missed the boarding :)

Christine, Spain.

I too have seen puppies go down with parvo..but after the initial puppy vacc!
I don`t see how breeders would use h/pathic nosodes just because they are cheaper &/or can be given at home. Certainly the ones I know who use them do so because they have seen the damage done by conventional ones. As to worming, I have 2 youngsters aged 3 yrs in April, who have never been wormed in their life, they have been fecal tested several times & each test has come back negative.
Titres are extremely reliable, they will tell you how high/low the circulating antibodies are to a given disease, what they can not do however is tell you the memory cells the animal has. These memory cells play an important role in triggering the body to fight off the disease, so although a titre test may come back showing low antibodies it doesn`t mean the body is not immune or can`t fight the disease off.
Reliable studies from experts unconnected to the vaccine manufactures show probable life long immunity to parvo & distemper & certainly minumum duration of 7yrs.
So if the vaccine manufactures themselves say 3yrs why is boostering still necessary???? As far as I`m concerned vets & manus are as bad as each other.
I really don`t understand why you think you should wait till it comes out in the UK to not booster every yr, apart from boarding kennels requiring it, it`s not compulsary or against the law not to do them. In fact there is not & never has been any scientific reason for them.

Christine, Spain.

A puppy can and will come down with parvo after the first vacc, thats why it has to be a course of two to be effective - preferably 2-4 weeks apart. There is afterwards very little chance of a dog/puppy contracting parvo - in fact I've seen a couple of cases where pups exposed to parvo (eg littermates getting poorly) have gone on to avoid developing it due to a good vaccination regime. I'm not saying its impossible, as no vaccine is 100% effective, but I'm saying its unlikely - much more unlikely than an unvaccinated or homeopathically treated pup getting it.

As an ex vet nurse I can assure anyone that reactions to vaccines are incredibly rare. Of course its very worrying when they occurr, but they can usually be attributed to poor health before vaccination. I'm not going to go along the lines of others and preach about whats best for your pets - that has to be a personal decision. My personal decision is to vaccinate until the powers that be (eg BVA, BSAVA or RCVS - whoever is most responsible) recommend otherwise. The risk of preventable disease is much higher in unvaccinated dogs. Seeing as in my whole lifetime I've never seen one case of a dog having a reaction to a vaccine, I feel its safer that way for my pets. I'm not saying by that that I dont believe they occur, I'm sure they do, but I've seen a hell of a lot more destruction from not vaccinating, or from using the homeopathic nosodes. I have yet to see any proof that these work, but to be honest I struggle to understand how they could.

I know this looks like I'm pushing the vet POV, but I'm a big supporter of alternative therapies, and if I could find an alternative to vaccinating or worming that was more natural and more importantly worked, I'd use it. Until then I'll go along with what the qualified vets recommend :)

And what happens when the pups go down with parvo before the second vacc is due?

Being an ex vet nurse does not mean you are any more or less qualified to reassure people vaccine reactions are extremely rare. I`m speaking as one who has first hand experience of it & am well qualified also to say my pups were in extremely good health :) Adverse reactions are far from rare.
I personally also go along with what qualified vets say, the only difference being that the ones I go along with are also qualified immunoligist/viroligists & they happen to be the only ones who have done any scientific study into the duration of vaccines.
You are an extremely lucky person to have never in your life seen a pup suffer with an adverse reaction to a vaccine, it`s a very distressing sight.
Have you seen the studies that Chris Day has done on h/pathy nosodes?
And I`m sorry to say that I`ve seen far more suffering caused by vaccines than anyone should ever have seen.

Christine, Spain.

Hi Christine
I'm sure you have from what you've said. By pointing out I was an ex vet nurse I was not saying I'm more qualified than anyone else, so I dont understand why you made that point. I was merely pointing out that I've seen a hell of a lot of vaccines given and never seen a reaction once. I think I made my point pretty diplomatically, after all someone was asking for our views and I believe we're all entitled to give them :)
You'll have to forgive me, I've never heard of Chris Day - is he an immunologist? In which case, I'd be very interested to read any veterinary studies he's made on the homeopathic nosodes. I'm sorry to say that I have only seen the negative side of them, having seen so many pups that were given them succumb and die from parvo. Unfortunately many owners are told by the breeder that this treatment is a vaccine, and it just isnt. They may well have properties that help, but I just havent seen them. :(
I'm sure any incident of a poorly animal is highly distressing for anyone that witnesses it and I sympathise with anyone with a sick pet, my point was that these occurrences relating to vaccines are very rare, and parvo is incredibly common and is just as serious. Recovery from parvo is incredibly difficult and death is common, especially in young pups and elderly dogs. There is no cure, only supportive therapy.
My sympathies for your experiences
Kathy

Hi Kathy, I thought by you saying as an ex vet nurse you were implying it gave your words more weight so to speak & of course we`re all entitled to give our views, thats what were on here for :)
My point is they are not at all extremely rare, theres a whole lot of people being told this same thing & it`s only when you meet up with them that you find it it`s a lot more common than one is led to believe!
You didn`t answer my question about what happens when pups go down with parvo after having their initial jab but before the next is due? What then?
Out of 6 pups that contracted parvo we managed to save all but 1 & he was the 1 that was already suffering from a very rare disease, caused by the vaccine, when he went down with parvo. In my opinion they are all horrid diseases but at least once they survive parvo they are then immune for life. The disease my pup had, Sterile Idiopathic Nodular Panniculitis was worse & we didn`t know what the future would hold for him if he`d have lived. Also I know of other dogs who have survived parvo but they are routinely boostered for it, why when after having it they are immune for life?
I`m going to look for the links for Chris Day for you, but as you`ve not heard of him could you tell me what are you basing you negative opinions on h/pathy from?

Christine, Spain.

Here they are Kathy, the second one is from Nick Thompson another h/pathic vet :)

[/link]http://www.alternativevet.org/vaccination.pdf[/link]
http://www.holisticvet.co.uk/research.html

Christine, Spain.

Hi Christine :)
As I said in my messages I can only go on what I've seen, and having worked in a place where most of what you see is negative sides, its the only view I got. I appreciate that its pretty onesided, which is why I asked about the research (genuine interest). The only pups I have seen that had homeopathic nosodes were the ones that were brought in with parvo because they didnt protect them. Thats not to say that all pups treated with them have adverse effects, not for one minute do I mean that. It's just theyre the only ones I've seen. Its very hard after seeing that to believe they have a positive effect on immunity - especially when youve had to nurse them and watch them die. Thats not to say that I couldnt be persuaded otherwise. It's very hard to judge on word of mouth whether they work though, as any owner can say they do, but without testing you cant be sure. I suppose I'm just one of those folks who have to see research etc, for anything!
As for pups in between the initial 2 vaccines, some have enough immunity to either skip it, or get a mild case. If one of the litter gets it, its advisable to get the 2nd jab done as an emergency (I had to do this once with a pup in my care and it worked thank God). To be honest though, that was for that case, and I would hope that anyone with that kind of problem would seek a professional opinion. Even those against conventional treatments per say would be better taking them there, as its the only place they could get IV fluids, which is the biggy on whether they make it. Of course as long as the pup/dog is able to drink, they can try lectaid etc.
Off to have a peek at that link you gave me below - thanks Christine :)
Take care
Kathy
xx

Again, its silly oclock in the morning, and im on a posting mission (cant have pc during day).....

KathyM, do you not think it is possible that as a vet nurse you didnt see even HALF the dogs that actually had reactions.?

How many people who take their first pup to the vets for a vaccine are warned that the dog could have a reaction? Ive NEVER been warned by a vet or vet nurse.

How many of those who do hear something about vaccine reactions would actually know wot to look for?

So, im not suprised a vet nurse hasnt seen many vaccine reactions, they can occur MONTHS after the vaccine was given, have varying symptoms, some barely noticable, some far faster and much more drastic.

As far as i was aware, the actual reason that vaccines are repeated 2-4 (preferably 4) weeks later (ive NEVER been advised 4 weeks, only ever 2 weeks) is that frequently the pups maternal antibodies will kill the vaccine. How many vets advise on leaving the pup long enough so that the maternal antibodies are gone before the pup is initially vaccinated????

So far, in talking about vaccines i have heard of only ONE vet who i thought sensible regarding vaccines, and that was (told to me by a member of a working dog forum) a guy who offered a titre test as part of the cost of vaccinations!!! wot a good idea....funny ive never come across another vet doing that, most are very very unhelpful should u try to differ from their set vaccination protocol.

Em

Again I find myself having to defend a personal choice. I'm not in the business of rallying up customers for vets or otherwise, so I find it quite offensive that my experiences are being written off. I said in my posts I'm only going on what I've seen. I have said thast I agree boosters might be needed less frequently, so I'm not even sure of the point of your argument. All I have said is that I would rather go on what a vet says than hearsay, which I think is pretty sensible. I'm not going to enter into an argument as I was purely posting what I have seen and experienced.
And FYI, working in that kind of industry you build up a rapport and sometimes a close friendship with customers. The vets I worked with, Ruby's vet, the rescue vets, etc, all had the interests of the animal at heart. I also know that most if not all of our clients would have expressed any concerns they had. I have never seen a reaction to a vaccine - I didnt say they didnt happen, I said that in the thousands I have witnessed, I HAVENT SEEN ONE. You portray the whole veterinary field as heartless money grabbers, well theyre my friends and ex colleagues you are wittering on about.
Emmabeth - do you even begin to think that you (you dont say what field of work you're in) may have a completely onesided view of it? People that have had bad experiences are far more likely to talk about it than good - its human nature to join in. Just like the complaints on other boards about the RSPCA (whole different subject and not going into that now) - its only those with bad experiences that feel the need to come on a board and slander the whole of the RSPCA. Rarely if ever do you hear the good side of the story.
I can understand that you find it hard to comprehend that someone else may have a different view, but I did not belittle yours or anyone elses, I purely gave mine.
As for vaccinations - in pups they are generally four weeks apart - 8 and 12 weeks (some vets give them at 6 and 10 weeks now to aid earlier socialisation). If the pups is over 10 weeks old, they can be given 2 weeks apart. This is what our practice did, and all the ones I have seen/visited since. All owners were told that their pup may be sleepy for 24 hours afterwards, as is normal. I assume that you are talking about adult dogs, or you would know this :)
As you say that vaccine reactions mostly happen weeks and months after vaccination - I was wondering where you got this information? Is it from the horses mouth, or based on proper investigation? I suggest a lot of these claims could be easily put down to other causes.
As for your comments on "most vets" I think its wonderful that you have met and judged every vet in the working field. I only gave info on what vets I have actually met or worked with would suggest and from witnessing it in practice. :)
Misinformation is a dangerous thing. :)

KathyM,

I have seen one bad reaction to vaccine in my dogs, thats one out of 4 dogs ive had vaccinated. She was a rescue, and i reckon had been over vaccinated, since she had been bounced back to rescue several times before i had her, and had undergone the FULL puppy course each time. Id say that would actually suggest id be biased towards vaccinating, rather than against it!

My occupation has very little to do with it (freelance writer amongst other things if you really must know) but since you bring that up, exactly HOW long were you a QUALIFIED vet nurse for????  Im honestly not trying to be bitchy here, but as you made clear when u reffered to me as Emmabeth (i post here as Theemx) it is obvious that we know each other from other boards, where i believe u made clear your actual experience, as you said yourself, misinformation is a dangerous thing, and i think to infer that you were a qualified vet nurse is just that, mis information.

I dont doubt that you gained some valuable experience whilst working for a vet, so have i. But valuable experience and knowledge can be gained from other places, and the internet, and publications are just as worthy if you find the right sources.

You say that vets recommend vaccinating pups at as young as 6 weeks. From the articles i have read, and people i have talked to, that would mean that the vaccines do indeed become invalidated by the pups maternal antibodies.....a pup at six weeks is highly likely to still be taking the odd drink from its mother, so if thats the case (and how many puppy owners are going to know the answer to that?) then to vaccinate at 6 weeks is fairly pointless.

There again, if the pup ISNT covered by maternal antibodies, and is vaccinated at 6 weeks, to then give another vacc at 8 weeks would be overdosing it....again not a good thing for such a young body.

I dont think i have a one sided view of it at all, i reckon im pretty open minded about it, vaccination IS a useful tool in preventing horrendous illness in our pets, and ourselves. My problem is with the industries the majority of us HAVE to rely on for correct and up to date information, they dont seem to be providing us with the full and honest truth, and that angers me.
What it comes down to  is that vaccine manufacturers and vets are running a BUSINESS, not a charity, not a public service out of the goodnes of their hearts, and that IS an important factor in their recommendations.

How much revenue do you think the average vet would lose if it turns out that annual boosters are entirely unecessary? I think thats a very valid question.

Em

Hi Em
It seems wherever we go we clash dont we? I've tried to be diplomatic but it seems you cant handle that. I'm not going to reply to a message where the sole purpose is to upset or inflame someone, something I find you're pretty good at. I only posted my experiences and you jumped on my back. If you actually took 5 minutes to READ any of my replies I havent disagreed about vaccinations being given less often - in fact I called for it. I swear its so frustrating when people dont read what you've put. I didn't know you'd been a vet nurse (you say you worked for a vet?). I was working at the time when qualifications werent needed to be called a vet nurse. Hardly misinformation seeing as I was working as a VET NURSE. I was a year into training when my husband left me and 3 kids alone and I had to move halfway across the country for our personal safety. There - are you happy now, seeing as you know that fine well and only wanted to drag up someones personal life to add fuel to your argument? I hope people on here see you for what you are - vindictive. Anything goes as long as you look right eh?
Kathy

KathyM,

Actually you are wrong, i have no bad feeling towards you at all, and the reason WHY u arent a vet nurse now is irrelevant, i never asked you to say WHY you left, that was your choice.

I just got the feeling that you were making out your experience to be more than it is, and since you brought misinformation into the equation, i thought that it WAS relevant to question your experience. Since u had made that information public on another board, i didnt think it unfair to ask you to do the same on here.

As to MY vet experience, i never ever claimed i was a vet nurse, qualified or otherwise. I did two weeks work experience in a vets and about a years worth of saturday/evening volunteer work, doing i would expect similar things as you did.

From your posts, it could have been construed that you were a qualified vet nurse for years, which isnt the case.

Since part of the debate about vaccinations  has called on peoples experiences, i think it IS a valid question to know EXACTLY what those experiences are, otherwise how can anyone know how reliable a source of information is?

You are right though, we are pretty much on the same side as regards vaccination, it IS a useful tool in keeping our dogs healthy, but also it is something i think is overused. I do agree with much of what you say, i just question EVERYONES experience on matters like this, i find it pays to do so.

If you said you had been a vet nurse for 20 years, and then it turned out that your 20 years experience was based in a large animal practice, dealing with horses and cows for example, then that would make the usefulness of the experience when applied to dog based illness fairly useless. Can u see what im getting at here?

Emma

Hi Em
I dont see where I said anything untrue? I havent mislead anyone? I feel you only brought that up to be nasty - and I'm not being a party to it. For other's information - I started a topic on another board outlining my life and work history to get advice on how to get back into the field of work I love - working with animals. I havent only worked as a vet nurse, but also in rescue, and have my own history of pet ownership to go by, as well as the information I have learned from reading up on things. I have in no way said that I am more qualified than anyone - I was relating what I did to explain what I saw. I dont see why that makes me any less qualified than others to put my point of view across, especially seeing as (yet again having to explain this) I was only putting what I would do. Where did I say that all people should follow my advice? Where did I say that all of my experience comes from my time as a vet nurse? I wonder whether you would drag up the same kind of nastiness for someone with the same views as you? I doubt it, and frankly if this is what you have to resort to to prove your point, it makes me even less of a believer. I cant see you saying to a non vaccinating owner "Oh no, you're not qualified, so you dont count here".
Some people just dont like people with different opinions - I have said over and over (to a brick wall obviously) that this is MY experience, and MY decision, and that EVERYONE is entitled to their own. The way you put it, you'd think I've been convicted of murder. I didnt come here and drag up your personal life to make you feel bad - but then again I have a conscience.
As for your last statement - it isnt relevant to me having spent most of my adult life working and living with companion animals. My experiences whether I'm qualified or not, come from what I have seen with my own two eyes. I dont think you need a qualification to witness that? I have seen pets die from not being vaccinated - I'm not going to pretend I didnt because YOU say I'm not qualified to. The experience with the puppy that had the 2nd vacc early wasnt anything to do with my vet nurse work, so why am I not "qualified" to tell people? I dont see you saying to anyone else that theyre not fit to answer because theyre not qualified? I've told you "exactly what these experiences are" - as you put it. Why would they be any different depending on qualification? It's all about where I was and what I saw, and what I have learned.
I think you have a lot to learn about reading through posts before hitting that "post" button - although I doubt you care who's feelings you hurt when you spout off.
Kathy

Kathy,

Honestly i think you have misunderstood me. I dont have any desire to upset you at all, and i am upset that i seem to have done so.

I never said that your experience wasnt valuable, im sure it is, i just wanted to clarify the NATURE of your experience.

No where did i say that you had lied to anyone, but there is  you must admit, a world of difference between working as a veterinary nurse for a year or so, and doing that for 20 years, and i didnt know how long you had worked for.

We can all gain useful information from many sources, but as i said before, it is important to know as much about those sources as possible, you would think me foolish if i took every word someone said as gospel without asking them for more information wouldnt you?

So again, i AM sorry that i have upset you, i never meant to ask you about your personal life, as that is none of my business, and in no way do i consider the fact u had to leave ur job as a vet nurse to invalidate any experience you have.

I think we had best leave it at that really, i actually believe we have similar view on the necessity of vaccinations, but u seem convinced that i am 'out to get  you' or some such nonsense, and that simply isnt the case.
Emma

You know Kathy, talking about testing & how things work, there is no scientific evidence anywhere that boosters are needed & you say you like to see research for everything so you should be asking your vet has he got some for you to see :) It also states very clearly on the info*only healthy pets should be vaccinated* but that is ignored by vets who vacc/booster any animal with allergies/on medication etc.
H/pathic nosodes that have been used on puppies you`ve seen, where they given under the direction of a h/pathic vet & do you know where they were obtained from & were the instructions carried out properly? Also are you sure all the pups had parvo or could it be possible they had something similar?
Re my pups, they had their first puppy vacc using the Merial vaccine & my vet done them in accordance with the recommendations set out by them, first at 8wks 2nd at 12wks but they went down with parvo at 11wks. I have never heard of what you describe as an emergenct vaccine being given when pups are already going down with it or incubating it, how would it help by giving them a second dose? It was never suggested either by my own vet or Merials vets. I do agree tho that professional help needs to be sought & speed is of the essence.I had 4 on drips in the spare b/room with round the clock care.
I have to ask the same as Em has tho, how many vets/nurses know whats an adverse reaction, it was only when the biopsy results came back that the vet had to tell me that yes, it was due to the vaccine even tho I`d been telling him from the beginning it was. And further how many of them report it, as laid down in their guidlines vets are actively encouraged to report these things, I had to report it myself.
Hope you enjoy the link, have you read the others I put on further up this thread? Now they are by immunoligists & should make interesting reading for you ;) :)

Christine,Spain.

hi christine, i have just had a thought with theemx saying reactions can occur months after vaccines...can you remember my post on xmas eve about my boxer pup having a allergic reaction? i thought it was a plant she had chewed, do you think it could have been the vaccine?  bit worried as she needs her 2nd jab soon :)

Hi Jacki, just had a look at your post to remind myself :) She was 10wks old then, so how long was it when she had her vaccs before the reaction?
From what you described the symptoms then I`d say the reaction was from something more immediate like a bite or plant, possibly something she ate & as it resolved after a couple of days I doubt the vaccine was the cause but obviously I`m only guessing :)
What I would say tho is I wouldn`t have a lot of confidence in the vet who wouldn`t see her, allergic reactions can get dangerously out of hand & also the poor dog is so uncomfortable so I`d have wanted her seen if she was mine :) I would definately tell the vet about what happened when she needs her next jab.

Christine, Spain.

she had her jab at 8wks so it was 2wks later when the reaction happened, i am changing her vets and won't be using him again, will have a word with new vet anyway to see what he thinks..thanks for your help :)

Christine - again I say that that is what I WOULD DO. I havent said anywhere that I dont believe that vaccines should be given less frequently. I said that I would prefer to act on these claims until I had spoken to my vet and seen proof that the British veterinary profession were considering this. For all I know, vaccinations over here could be completely different from in the US, we ALL know they differ from brand to brand. I'm playing it safe for MY pets. I didnt come here to be judged for my personal choices - I havent judged anyone else, and I havent told them what to do for their pets.
Again, you judge the whole of the veterinary profession and say theyre not fit to judge what a reaction is and isnt - I see a biopsy result as evidence, not what someone suggests. So yes, your dog had a reaction, and I really feel for you because of the upset you've been through. I'll agree with that because you obviously have proof that your dog had something that is incredibly rare. I would love to hear how many of the other several cases you have talked to had proper veterinary testing done? Putting this theoretically, the handful of people that may or may not have any real proof has still got to be the tiniest percentage of those who have had vaccines done and not had any adverse effect - not in any way meaning to belittle the distress they have gone through.
As for the pup that I had to get the 2nd vacc for within days of his first, I can only go on that case, and that is what we were advised at the time, and he didnt have any adverse effect, or come down with parvo. Unfortunately 4 of his littermates died. As I didnt have them in my care, I cant possibly comment on their treatment, but as far as I know they were treated supportively, which is all anyone can do.
In the majority of the homeopathically treated pups that got parvo they were mainly under homeopathic vet supervison, but often administered at home. Yes, they all had parvo. Maybe I'd be more convinced if their administration was limited to the homeopathic vets and they werent allowed to be administered at home? Then at least we'd be able to judge properly if they work or not. Unfortunately the vast majority of these nosodes and other homeopathic/alternative therapies are handed out for home use. I believe anything that is meant to be used for prevention or cure of a serious illness should be POMs, and only used under qualified supervision - whether homeopathic or conventional.
I have yet to meet a vet that would vaccinate a seriously unhealthy pet - if you are saying that the vets you have met would - I suggest you look elsewhere for a decent one. People like that should be reported - can you tell me if you took any action against them? Even the vet I cant stand (head vet at local practice) refused to vaccinate Ruby because of her conditions, and all the vets I have worked with and witnessed in "action" would not vaccinate an animal that was too poorly to handle it. And to be honest, vaccines are not a legal requirement, and those that have reservations have the opportunity to refuse them.
Thanks for the links - will read through them in a mo. Not sure of why you're pushing me towards them though, as I didnt disagree with what was said about vaccinations in the US (which is where all the evidence in those links originates from) - in fact I believe in my first post I did say that vets over there are recommending every 3 years? I also have stated that I dont have Ruby vaccinated because of her lowered immune system - my position is that I believe pups need their first vaccs and at least their first booster, and thats what animals that I own in the future would get. I didnt say everyone had to do the same *lol*.
I'm concerned that because I admitted that I had worked with vets, and that I hadnt seen adverse reactions, that you assume that I'm the anti to your argument, which just isnt true (and if you read my posts back thoroughly you will see that). Either that or you have decided to use me as a battering post for your view on vets? That's pretty unfair considering I've only posted what I have seen, and what I want for my pets. I stand by my view that people should be allowed to express their opinions, research into both sides of any concerns, and make their own informed choices. Otherwise I wouldnt be using alternative therapies for Ruby, would I? It's not "us against them", so please stop trying to make it look that way.

Hi Kathy,

Standard protocol in the U.S. is annual boosters.  Rabies vaccination once a year is a legal requirement.

Stacey

Hi Stacey
Yeah, I forgot to mention re: Rabies vaccine seeing as its not used over here, sorry. As for the others - I was told that vets over there recommend boosters every 3 years? If I'm wrong, sorry! :D
Take care
Kathy

Stacey I think you should look again at the rabies required in USA. I`m pretty sure sure some are only 3yrs & so are the other vaccine protocols.

Christine, Spain

Hi all, lets deal in facts :)

Vaccines do & can cause adverse reactions =vaccinosis. There are a few reasons why they may not work, dependent on the hosts immune system/health etc. & also due to not being correct vaccine against specific virus & not least but last efficacy= they just fail to work. It`s a fact that not all vaccines work for a variety of reasons. Another fact is that adverse reactions are NOT rare, be they minor or mortal they are reaction, an indication that the immune systen is being overpowered & unless you know what to look for or have had experince of reactions you may not know the signs, however many vaccines you have seen administered. A reaction however small is just that, a reaction to the said foreign body, that the immune system isn`t coping with. If vets won`t/can`t/don`t recognise them or report them how will we ever know the true story??
I have had experience of a few *rare* reactions in my dogs sadly. My ex vet continually told me he had never seen any adverse reactions due to vaccinations until the biopsy results came back with the results of Reddy`s biopsy. He immediately cancelled his contract for all his vaccines with Merial & thats a fact.
Another fact is the links I`ve put up on here are from unbiased experts in their field, read them if you want to & if you don`t want to well thats OKas well, we live in a free world so thats our right, take it or leave it & believe what you want to. I`ve spoken to a few well known vets face to face about vaccs, all I can say is if anybody has any doubts about vaccinations do some research & ask & ask again. 
Another fact is that my present vet is devoted to his profession & without him my litter of pups wouldn`t have survived the parvo :) We have a healthy respectful professional relationship & I don`t rely on him for everything regarding my dogs & nor does he expect me to. I`ve learned to know more about my dogs health & well being than I ever expected to & why shouldn`t I? After all they are my dogs & I know them best ;) And thats a fact without a doubt :)

Christine, Spain

Kathy, I`m just going to answer you`re comment *Either that or you have decided to use me as a battering post for your view on vets? That's pretty unfair *

I have no way decided to use you as a battering post for my views on vets, nor do I feel it`s *us* against them. You obviously haven`t read my posts thoroughly or you wouldn`t have made that comment. You also couldn`t have read thru the links further up on this thread, as again there would be no need for the comment *just for a balance*.

For some reason you have decided to put your personal life on this thread & seem to have taken things out of context. Because this thread has now gotten personal I`ll not post on it any further.

Christine, Spain.

http://www.akcchf.org/research/articles/whitepapers/vacissues.pdf

http://www.poolhousevets.co.uk/vaccinefacts.htm

Just for a balance :)

Hi and happy new year.On the topic of Lepto,do you know that in every documented case of a dog catching Leptosporosis,the disease was caught within 12 weeks of vaccination?Try reading Who Killed The Darling Buds Of May(What Vets Dont Tell You About Vaccination) by Catherine O Driscoll.It will open your eyes,it certainly opened mine.After getting my dog vaccinated against Lepto,the only vacc he ever recieved,we lost him to it less than 6 weeks later.Get all the facts.

Hello Feathers, not read the book, but what I have seen is Ms O'Driscoll say on an internet Q&A session, how grateful she is to the people who DO vaccinate convetionally because the high level of vaccination in many UK canine communities is what allows her and others who don't vaccinate to be relatively safe. I suppose if you live in an area with a low level of community vaccination level (eg some cities), and you follow the advice not to vaccinate, it's just hard luck if your pup gets parvo.

KathyM, as a 'consumer' my experience with vets is the same as your own. Rather than being money grubbers on more than one occassion my vets have talked me out of expensive investigations on elderly dogs when the result is unlikely to impove the length or quality of life.

I have read the book. My view is, each to their own, do not condem people for what choices they make for their animals. I read the book by recommendation from a friend who does not vaccinate at all, and feeds BARF. I do vaccinate and feed commercial. She has her opinion, I have mine, we do not fall out over it. At first, she did try to convert me (her words, not mine), hence, to have some of the information at hand, I read the book, and attended one of C.O'Driscolls seminars. The book was interesting, but I could not be convinced by some of the cases, e.g. my dog developed cancer 6 months after her booster etc?? Where's the link, what about all the other factors, environmental, genetic, feeding, pre-disposition etc. I wanted this information, in case any of mine ever had a reaction to a vaccine, coz of course, they do happen, like in humans. I wanted to be prepared. I was not prepared for the seminar, and felt like it was a meeting to bash all people who vaccinate (despite admitting the herd immunity theory??), and who feed commercial food. All I wanted to do was learn about alternatives, so that I could say I had made a balanced choice, whichever way I decided to go. The seminar actually put me off investigating much further for a long while. I still pay a healthy interest in learning about alternatives, as long as people do not go over the top and try to convert me.

I completely agree with you, beardiesokay. I have read several of CO'D's articles, and have found she makes many assumptions, sweeping generalisations, and contradicts herself. Like you, I dislike being evangelised, and my usual reaction is to go in the opposite direction!
:)

Hi J/G, :) could you please explain to me where you have found Catherine O` Driscoll, to quote what you have said : *the many assumptions, sweeping generalisations, and contradicts herself *
Thanks

Christine, Spain.

I'll look up that articles when I have time, but off the top of my head I remember one comment that "if your dog falls ill within 6 months of a vaccine, it is probably caused by the vaccine". Well, if a dog receives an annual booster, any time is within 6 months of it. Either 6 months before or 6 months after. She probably meant 6 months after, but if so, why not say that? So what she was saying was that if a dog falls ill at any time, this is likely to be caused by the vaccine! :rolleyes:

How extreme is that?
:)

Hi J/G, I have her book but don`t recall her saying that. I`ve also not come across any articles she`s written, except letters she`s written in the dog press & quotes taken from her book & the debate between herself & Steve Dean, but maybe I`ve missed these articles you have. I can say she doesn`t conradict herself in her book & I can`t see a mention of the 6mths your saying she said.

Christine, Spain.

Thats exactly how I feel. Luckily I've found a group of people who use alternative therapies but dont try to shove it down your throat as much as some others. It's easy to be put off when the choices you've made are bashed. Even if it was all true, I'd feel a complete outsider and wouldnt want to go back for more advice. I'm a big believer in personal choice, which is why although if someone asks an opinion I'll give it, I would  never expect them to do as I say - it'd be purely for them to get the balanced view. In my case I get it from both sides, as I use both forms of treatment. I'm what I'd class as a beginner in alternatives though, as I've only recently started trying them. I dont do BARF and wouldnt because of the dangers, but thats my informed and researched view too, and I dont judge those who do. :)

Thanks Jas :)
I can only suggest to those who dont have a vet like that, to change vets! *lol*. Our vet is just superb - is open to new ideas and talks everything through with us. The truth is most vets go into the job because they want to heal animals - those that dont feel like that dont deserve our money. Those that wrongly prescribe should be reported. What worries me is that some people that complain about their vets mention different occasions when this has happened to them. Why did they go back? I wouldnt!
Our vet gave me an informed view on each treatment option, what was likely to work, what was fair on her (he was right on our wavelength on that too), and what was just a waste of money. People say these kinds of vets are few and far between, but I've only met one money grabber so far (head vet which seems typical seeing as its his practice!) out of the tens of vets I know. I know the money grabbers are out there, and its infuriating, but so many people jump on the bandwagon and make sweeping statements about the whole of the veterinary profession from their personal experience with their vet. I've decided to call it Vetism. *lol*
Take care
Kathy
xxx

Hi Jas, would you like to put it on here for all of us to see where C. O`Driscoll said that? After all if it`s on the net already that she`s said what you have said she has then it`s no problem, providing it`s the truth of course & her words are not being taken out of context ;) :)

I do not vaccinate/worm/flea/blood test my own dogs, but I do know their titre levels/fecal status/blood levels/flea infestation. Unlike a lot of the herd who do vaccinate/worm/flea regardless of whether or not the animals need it or not ;)

*it's just hard luck if your pup gets parvo.* Yes..... it really is isn`t it, especially when you vaccinated according to the vets & vaccine manufacturers guidlines. But hey, thats vaccines for you, they either work or they don`t, pay your money & take your chances it`s a gamble. By the way you do know that vaccines can`t ever be tested except by the individual producers that produced them don`t you? No other outside body can test them for efficacy/toxins etc etc or if things are even suspected of being wrong with them. Hows that for self regulation??? Oh & once they leave the manus factory it`s done by an agent & therefore outside the control of the manu`s & the manu`s relinquish all responsibility for said vaccs. And of course you all know the importance of keeping vaccines in an optimum refrigerated temperature. Think they must be kept between 5-7 off hand. Talk about pass the parcel!!!!!!

I`m not nor ever have been a gambler & will not play russian roulette with my dogs health.

Christine, Spain.

Christine, Spain.

Hello Christine, Ms O'Driscoll spoke of her gratitude to people who vaccinate on an internet Q&A session about a year ago, It was on one of the BARF / don't vaccinate / alternative everything groups. I just lurked and can't remember the name of the group. So it would be a lot of trouble to track down the link. I was however sufficiently taken aback by the comment (and by the fact that the 'RaRa!' audience kept right on going "Ra! Ra!") to be quite certain that I gave an honest precis of what was said.

"I`m not nor ever have been a gambler & will not play russian roulette with my dogs health"

My feelings exactly :)

Thats what your saying, strange you can`t remember anything else except *the rara audiance* no idea what you mean by that anyway. But what a pity she`s not here to give her version of what she said eh?

The fact is it`s a gamble every time a vaccination is used, be it to whether it works or gives an adverse reaction of any kind fatal or not, so I`m glad you have the same feelings as me about them ;)

Christine, Spain.

Hello Christine, do you remember the details of something you read or saw a year ago? By RaRa audience I intended to indicate people so convinced already that the cheer mechanism is on but the brain processes are not. If I thought for a moment that a reference to Ms O'Driscoll's comment would cause you to paue for thought I would hunt for it, but I don't so will just have to doubt my veracity.

As for risks, yes of course vaccince carry a small risk, variable from one vaccine to another. No medicine that works is risk free. Parvo, distemper etc also carry a risk. A massive one.

Yes Jas I`m well aware of the risks of vaccines & medicines, especially after they were the direct cause of not one but two diseases in my pups, parvo being one of the diseases & the resulting damage to their immune systems as well. So I really don`t need any warnings of the risk of those diseases. If you`ve read any of my posts you`d have known that :)

I certainly don`t remember everything I read or saw a year ago. But if I was disparaging someone on an open board you bet your life I would! And if I couldn`t remember it I wouldn`t post it, unless I had back up to what I say. At the very least I`d put a link to it or tell you the book & page no.

Christine, Spain.

Christine, I did not disparage. I paraphrased - honestly I assure you - what I read Ms O'Driscoll say. Had she said it in a book or paper I would of course give a reference but the pletora of 'alternative' internet groups is harder to look up. If you wish to disbelieve that is your priviledge. This has the potential for a good discussion but it doesn't seem to be happening, so I won't post on it again.