is there a book that has pictures of field trial champs in it? or a website? im looking for pics of a few drakeshead dogs, stratfieldsaye, and holdgate or holgate which ever it is, pedigrees can be a bit like chinese whispers at times,
thanks in advance tanya

There are a few links to Drakeshead photos on this pedigree

http://personal.inet.fi/perhe/namusillan.labradorit/puppiesparent.htm

Kath.

thanks for that, got one more picture to add to what i have got already, there seems to be a shortage of photos of working labs

When I took Tess to be mated, the breeder had a large book with photos and pedigrees of lab F.T. champs dating back to the 40's.  It was so interesting, I could phone her and ask what it is and if copies are still available.  There was a stand at Crufts with old 'doggy' books but I didn't see it there.
Lorna

if you wouldnt mind find out what the book was called that would be great, ive found most of the champs on tess' show side its the working side thats the hard bit

So you've got a Tess too?  What's her working side?  Mine has Stratfieldsaye Dipper, Abbeystead Herons court.  On Honey's side she has Hedenhampark Dash of Philray, PalgraveSwinbrook Fern, ManymillsDrake, Stratfieldsaye Beinmhor Lomond, Spudtamsons Berry of Mirstan and Palgrave Edward.  Show side have Elowood Soul Singer and Warringahs Harlech and Charway Seashell.  I'll try and find out the book that I saw, I'd love a copy myself.
Lorna

on tess' sires side (the show bit) she has, larkvalley, elmsmere, boothgates, warringah's, fabracken, bradking, kupros,lindall, mardas,ardmargha,bonzer, brightwalton and heatherbourne. on tess' dams side (the work side) she has, drakeshead, stratfieldsaye, hold or hol gate (whichever it is) downfarm, cambrian, haretor, shinshail apache, and bryndaffyd.
she has the chunky of the show side but looks as if she can do a days work, as she isnt as chunky as the show type but then not as fine as the working type.
tanya

It's Holdgate. :)

Lorna,   Manymills Drake photo on here...

http://www.culverdown.demon.co.uk/5gen.html

Kath.

By my reckoning it is Holdgate not Holgate although I have seen it written both ways. I don't think i've ever seen a pedigree without mistakes in it!! I suppose thats always going to be a problem with hand written pedigrees.

Regards, John

I have that problem with my husbands pedigree John, you should see how many ways there are of spelling Barraclough!

Happy New Year.
Kath.

carole coodes' book, on labs, sorry cant remember the title had tons of pics of drakeshead labs and the like in.It's also brill and full of very usefuil info!!!hope this helps!!

lots to look at then, thank you. ive been able to correct lots of mistakes in the pedigree while ive searching for photos warringah being one of them i had it as warringard :s
tanya

found it!!its called labrador retrievers today by carole coode, of course tons of warringah labs in as they're her dogs!hope this helps!! 

Whilst we are talking lines, does anyone have the sire and dam of  Gina of Seanbaile or Annie of Seanbaile?

Thanks!

Regards, John

this is as close as i can find for annie of seanbaile
http://www.tetrevidvur.com/predkove/seanbaile_shamrock.htm
couldnt find gina of seanbaile

Thanks very much Tanya. I have all the forward dogs but the pedigree you supplied filled in another dog, Lochtyburn Tempest, for me!! It's amazing how the addition of just one or two dogs fills in years of history!

Best wishes, John

Sorry John, Seanbaile is not in my boy's pedigree, and the site I've been looking at has them listed but doesn't give any further details.

Could you or any other lab experts give me any info on the Leospring Kennel as there are a few in my boy's pedigree.  Unlike the other kennels there appears to be a mix of show and working dogs in their pedigrees and am just curious if anyone knows their dogs. Apologies in advance for my ignorance.

best wishes, Jenny

Leospring is the affix of Mrs (Joyce I think) Venturi-Rose. Well known in show circles, I remember seeing her in the ring at Crufts a couple of years ago.

Best wishes, John

the link i gave you john ive been able to find a few dogs on there but only through search engines, havent been able to find anything on the home page to search on the sit directly which is a shame as it can be very informative

We glean little bits from here and there and gradually we build up a picture. Researching a line is a slow business.

Best wishes, John

Such words of wisdom John :)  It took me 6yrs before I had filled in all of one of my girls gaps. Debbie

JenP. As usual John is right, Mrs Venturi Rose, I have her address etc: if you would like it you can e-mail me. She lives in Surrey.
Debbie

john
             how far back are you trying to go when tracing the line of your dog , i was given a 5 generation pedigree
and in ingnorance because Ftch haskeyne Moss & his sister Haskeyne Reever  are both on the dams side i assumed this was the Line ? with my pups Sire Ftch Craighorn Bracken used as an out cross, it is obviously is much deeper than that it sounds .

How far back? 1875 is possibly as far as I can get. Details get a little hazy after that.

Trouble is, sometimes the terminology we use is a little less than technical!! When we talk about our dog's line what we are really talking about is a list of ancestors. 

When we talk about line breeding we are talking about something totally different. A line bred puppy would share a common ancestor. Supposing for example "Jack of the hills" appeared on the third line (Great grand sire) of the pedigree on both the sire and dam sides of the pedigree then you would say that the puppies were line bred to Jack of the hills. This is often done to try to "Fix" the good points of a particular dog into the puppies. (It must never be forgotten that you would stand just the same chance of fixing the bad points as well!) Often when this is done then on mating one of these line bred puppies the breeder would look for an unrelated stud dog, no common ancestors. This would then be an out cross. Going outside the existing relations.

Even the term "Outcross" can have more than one meaning. It could also mean bringing in a dog of a different breed! Often done in the formative days of a breed. It must be remembered that up till about 50 years ago Labradors, Goldens, Flatcoats and all the rest of the retrievers were not classed as breeds but as varieties and interbreeding within the varieties was under certain circumstances allowed.

Getting back to Jack of the hills, were he to appear further forward then the puppies would be said to be inbred! Sister mated to brother. Not generally a good idea although there could be reasons.

Even outcrosses are not all they seem. My Anna is a complete outcross. Nothing at all on a five generation pedigree. The first similarities occur on the seventh generation and by the tenth generation there are almost no dogs which appear on one side only! With this in mind, just think what would happen if a well used stud dog was unbeknown to the owner, a carrier of a hereditary problem! As an example, there can be no modern Labrador who by now does not have Glenhead Jimmie in its ancestors! (Glenhead Jimmie was to the best of my knowledge not carrying anything thank goodness!)

Best wishes, John

Many thanks john
                               i have decided to trace fern's pedigree back and see how far i can get ? also a few months a go thier was talk on here of a book which you wrote is it on sale yet ?

    Dave

It's with the printers at the moment Dave. Trouble is, some do inconsiderate person gave them all time off from the workhouse for Christmas!

The studying of lines can be so interesting. Old pictures found which put some flesh on the bones. Have a look at Crufts, there are always old photos and prints on sale and sometimes you are lucky enough to find one of an ancestor. From time to time articles get written about the history of the breed. Sometimes we know enough to know that it is wrong!! Sometimes it fills in yet another gap. People have a horrible habit of putting in photos of more modern dogs when a book is reprinted. Looking at second hand books often gives photos not in the latest reprint.

Believe me, the whole thing is addictive!

Best wishes, John

Hi Tanya,
I highly recommend the following book compiled by Dr.Isabella Kraft & Gary Johnson,  
"The Workers
British Labrador Retriever Field Trial - Obedience - Working Trial Champions 1904-1993" 
The publisher is: ViGra and address: Ladegårdsvej 18, DK-7100 Velje, Denmark

Furnished with some lovely old photos of the famous dogs, and all the pedigrees you could just imagine of!

Kind regards, Helena 

Thought I`d mention that Dr Kraft also publishes a book with labs & their pedigrees that are effected with eye diseases.

Christine, Spain.

thank you for that i think i have found the book just need to get it now thank you all.
tanya

i thought i had found the book but havent i am having problems finding it, have you got the book Helena if so can i ask how you got it?
thanks
tanya

That book sounds very much like the one I mentioned that I'd seen, I'd really like a copy, any luck yet in tracing it?
Lorna

Hi Tanya and Lorna,

I ordered "the Workers" from the Danish publisher (also Labrador enthusiasts). No problems. The same authors have also compiled a more up-to-date book including also the bench champions. Looking forward to have it!

In case any further questions please e-mail merrymind@luukku.com  

thanks for all your help in trying to locate the book, if anyone else is interested in the book mentioned here is the link for the publishers in denmark, they have all the lab champs pre war to 2000,
http://www.ad-it.net/
tanya