Hello,
  I have read extensively, mostly on the computer and the B.A.R.F. diet...it seems to be all the rage and yet I don't feel convinced in the least about it being a good idea....I just think that it's a different idea...my gosh...all the talk about the horrible stuff in dog food....we wouldn't want to know about what is in some of the food we eat...such as hotdogs etc.- I watched a show on the Discovery channel which said the average human eats about 5 lbs. of bugs in his or her lifetime!!!! I feel that there are huge differences in the qualities of different dog foods and of course it really pays off in every way to  feed the very highest quality....but I was just wondering what others thoughts were on this B.A.R.F.diet.
Judith Hack
hacks@vianet.on.ca

Judith, I feel the biggest problem with feeding BARF is the knowledge of the person feeding it, and their ability to understand the nutritional requirements of the dog and to source sound and clean products. I don't feel able so feed my hounds Burns.

Ditto Jackie,

I feel I don't have enough knowledge of minerals, proteins etc.   Whereas a bag of good complete does it all for me, is manufactured to a high quality, by folk a lot more in the know than I and after the growth plate problems of my first bitch, it is easy to know I'm feeding them a well balanced diet with a complete.   Most (Nearly all) top show people feed completes to keep their dogs in tip top condition.

Jackie,
So glad to hear your thoughts....to me what you said just makes common sense.....I live in Canada and am not familiar with Burns dog food but do feed my dog a complete good dog food (they advertise it as fit for human consumption...although I'm in no hurry to try it)- anyways glad to hear that common sense still prevails somewhere on this planet.
Judith

Judith, I think Burns is available in Canada, see this linkwhere you will find a toll free number.

Hi Judith,

I've looked into BARF as an alternative way of feeding dogs.  I continue to feed my dog commercial food and table scraps, so I guess you can say I am not convinced that the raw meat and bones approach is as terrific as some may it sound.  I believe that there is a real danger of bacterial contamination in uncooked raw meat, even though I recognise a dog's digestive system cannot be compared to human digestion. I think that the danger is greatly exagerated by anti-BARF people, but nonetheless the risk is there and the consequences can be dire.  I do not think salmonella poses much of a problem to dogs, but there are a lot nastier bugs around.

I am also concerned about feeding a dog raw bones and the possibility of obstructions and damage to the digestive system from bone splinters.   A dog's stomach acids can easily digest chewed bones, but large pieces or predigested splinters are a risk.   Again, I think the risks are small, but they are present nonetheless. 

I also think that there would be more support from the vet bodies for BARF, not necessarily as a panacea to everything that ails a dog, but as an acceptable, alternative approach to feeding.  On the other hand, I would also like to see vets speaking out about the rubbish that some of the pet food manufacturers produce. 

I feed my dog the best complete food I can buy and meat&veg leftovers.   I do not think it's difficult to feed a dog a nutritionally balanced homemade diet, whether it is cooked or raw.  I made my own dog food for a while, until I found a commercial food that is 99.9% as good. 

However, if I had a dog that had problems that could not be resolved or the cause found (like colitis, or skin problems) and I was feeding the way I am now, I would switch to BARF in a heartbeat and hope it did the trick. 

Stacey

Nothing in life is risk free and dogs choke on kibble, rawhides, balls, sticks etc etc etc.

As for salmonella, campylobacter, e-coli etc etc we are talking about dogs that lick their own bottoms! :) Also if you look into the source and causes of these (too long to go into here) these are omnipresent not only in commercial foods but everywhere else; they only become a problem in an immune compromised animal.  The immune system of most species nowadays is extremely compromised from the over vaccination, chemical sprays, and disinfectant obsessed community.

I also feel strongly that in a bloat risk breed such as mine that raw feeding is less risky; but as I have always said everyone must do what they believe is best for their own dogs; what suits one does not suit another :D

Hi Tohme,

Exactly right, there is nothing without risk. 

I agree food contaminants are everywhere and cannot be avoided, but the risk can be reduced with cooking.  It also comes down to whether or not you are convinced raw meat is that much better than cooked meat to balance the risk. 

Not long ago I read an account of a bullmastiff breeder who fed BARF and bought meats from the local abatoire .  One morning she found two of her dogs bleeding from their rectums and rushed them to the vet.  Both these dogs died from what was essentially an overdose of e-coli.  She had been feeding BARF for years and she had no idea why these two dogs sucuumbed and the rest of her dogs, who ate exactly the same food, were fine.   Her assumption was either they were immune compromised or perhaps they had ingested more of the infected meat.  Her conclusion was not that BARF was the wrong way to feed, but that she completely lost confidence in her ability to source raw meats that were of a high enough quality to feed her dogs.  So, she switched to cooked foods because she decided not to risk further problems, but said she would go back to BARF if the meat situation changed (affordable, organic and toxin free meat).

Years ago people used to eat raw meat (steak tartare) and raw eggs without a problem.   Today most people would not take the risk.  I think with factor farming, the way livestock are treated prior to slaughtering, and all the steps between abatoire and retailer that even the meats in supermarkets today are not the same quality as they were fifty years ago (eg, at the start of the pet food industry).

Stacey

One reason I feed human grade organic meat!

Cooking meat changes its molecular structure and can make some nutrients unavailable to dogs.  Although cooking can and does destroy some bacteria it does NOT rid meat of toxins; in fact it can bind the toxins to the protein and therefore, that is why I refuse to feed commercial dog food as it can contain diseased animals, and animals that have been euthanased using extremely toxic products; not to mention worse things that I will not go into here.

I can't help noticing this has been added after my question?

You are probably the exception rather than the rule...most folk will trot off to Asda's or some such, pick up their chicken wings and not give one thought as to the ways that bird has been raised in it's 12 week life, to it's carcass (Or bits of it) sitting in a plastic white tray in a chiller cabinet.

Likewise the way cattle are fed and routinely given antibiotics to maintain condition.    Their feeds derived from other animal sources (These are omnivorous beasts).......

Dogs in the wild are totally different to their domesticated cousins.   Female wild dogs will have 1 season a year and rear their pups, man has changed domestic dog to have 2-3 seasons a year.    Wild dog does not carry the bone & body bulk of the domesticated ones, man has given domestic dog this by breeding like this.    Likewise wild-dog sources it's own "free-range" food.   Yet wild dog may go for days without eating and then will gorge itself on it's kill or sourced dead carcass.   I doubt domesticated dog could cope with this feeding regime and would probably die of bloat.

Buying meat from the supermarket still has to be better IMHO than buying a commercial dog food that over 50% cereal (and not top grade cereal at that, it is usually the stuff that has been rejected for human use, can have aflatoxins in it and are usually what are called "flats" that is the husk with the "germ" removed), contains meat from unknown origin and of questionable bio availability, rancid grease collected from restaurants (they hardly pour pure unadulterated sunflower oil into the feed), with sugars, sweeteners, emulsifiers, humectants, preservatives, colourings etc etc etc to make it appear palatable to our noses and the dogs tongue!  Then there are the unnecessary fillers included such as peanut shells (in Hills) or sugar beet pulp.

Of course meat will have had hormones and antibiotics in it but then so has the meat in commercial dog food, but it also has a hell of a lot more.

Anyway how do you think the meat in commercial dog food was raised? Free range; at the prices they charge?!

There is no reason to starve domestic dogs so that they would gorge.

I am not saying that everything in nature is lovely!  The beauty of it all is that we can learn from nature (it is only when we interfere that we cause problems hence BSE etc) whilst still using the BEST from science; there is no reason to go ONE way or the OTHER but pick the best from what is available; just like you do when you breed dogs for example.

Yes but the thing is I have no axe to grind with anyone who feeds BARF, it is their choice.  But whenever it is raised in a topic all the grim stories of "complete" foods and their cereal contents, protein sources etc. are used as reasons to stop feeding complete.

I want to redress the balance as a complete feeder, some people who feed BARF (And I'm not including yourself or the 2 Christine's) probably don't think of the way their meat etc. gets to the supermarket and that is it all "pure" for Fido.    I tried chicken wings with mine, unfortunately Curtis got very bad diarrhoea after just 2 wings and whch then turned into colitis and a nice bill for antibiotics from the vet.

I feed complete, it's easy, it takes the guess work out.   I haven't had a growth plate problem with any of my dogs, feeding complete, after learning a lesson with Asti & her tripe intake.  Mia, my 3 year old always has a fantastically shiny coat no matter whether she's in or out of coat.  It suits them and I will stick with what I know.

I have always said if you are happy with complete and it suits you and your dogs then stick with it.  After all it is none of my business what anyone else feeds their dogs :D

We don't know what caused your dog's problems; he could have been allergic to the chicken, the chicken may have been "bad" , it may have been coincidence etc etc etc.  Likewise the same could be said for someone having an unfortunate experience with a "brand" of dog food.

The same with the tripe, it is impossible to feed a dog healthily from one source of protein and no calcium (via bone not tablets or powder).

I think the main issue I have is that unfortunately people are led to believe that they are getting full information from a commercial dog food label when nothing could be further from the truth; in particular the protein content.  Most people do not understand that it is the Crude Protein level that is indicated which does nothing to inform owners what percentage of that crude protein is actually usable! The laws that govern the PFMI labelling are very basic and do not cover what people really need to know. 

It is debates like this that help people question and make informed decisions and eventually push Pet food manufacturers to be more open and accountable! :D

Tohme .
Like you worry about bloat risk from complete made me look for an alternative. Two bullmastiffs belonging  to my friends died from bloat.They were fed on a good complete food same as I had mine on.
I have been feeding raw for two years now and I have been very satisfied with the results .
It took a bit of getting  used  to ,but I am glad I changed to raw .
I love watching my dogs enjoying a big meaty bone and taking time at it ,it is so natural looking ,instead of head down eat the complete and thats it .
I am not knocking complete  or anyone using it ,just saying I like raw better and I am sure my dogs prefer it.
Mari

Well I`ve got a voice & I like to use it :D & as much as you`d all like to hear me say this will be my last post on this subject you`ll have to be disappointed cos it won`t be :D but this one will be short :D

Processed food over a lifetime is no good for any sentinel beings immune system, given that, that is the first line of defence for everything.

Christine, Spain.

Well Christine mate I would only be disappointed if you did not continue on this subject.
Some people are experiencing feeding problems  with their dogs and it can only be good if they see there is an alternative to complete.
Re veg I get all the leftovers from my local supermarket very cheap and also I get brown bread that has not been sold on the day .
I spend one day a fornightnight pulping all the veg and freezing it so all I need to do  is let a bag thaw and add two tablespoons to the meals
I have powdered M.S M and mixed herbs that I sprinkle over the food also
I used have an emergency bag of complete in case I ran out of raw food ,but now I buy a big bag of rice from the cash and carry and use that if I have meat .
Boiled and an oxo or bovril in it and left overs, it is much better enjoyed then the complete by my dogs.
Mari

Hi, I`d say it`s certainly not a new way to feed dogs, it just went out of fashion when processed food became all the rage, after all, it`s processed food thats the relatively new way of feeding them :)
The problem is not what bugs dog foods has in it but the chemicals & preservatives, along with the unknown source of protein.
Most of the raw feeders I know have tons of common sense & prefer to feed their dogs food in it`s natural state :)

Christine, Spain.

Toby is 10 months old now and i have just changed his diet, i now give him a morning meal of bakers complete and a evening meal of barf, so far no problems and i must say he is more enthusiastic with the barf, he is a good eater anyway being a lab but he definitely shows more interest in the barf and it is lovely to see how much he enjoys it the look in his eyes say it all,
Heidi

Feeding raw is not new, it is just returning to the old ways of feeding dogs with maybe a little more science as knowledge about diet and dietary needs has progressed in the last thirty years or so.

Look at it another way.  Would you feed yourselves or your children a complete, all in one, diet if the advertising people told you that was the best way to feed. Everything (supposedly) balanced at every meal with a different food for every stage of life and then, as problems and allergies developed a new food for each one.  I very much doubt it somehow.

There is little more involved in feeding our dogs a balanced diet than there is in feeding ourselves.  If we are sensible we eat some of everything -  not at one sitting - but over time - days, weeks or even months.

The only difference really is that dogs are omniverous carnivoures and we are omniverous herbivoures

My dogs are feed complete meal.  I did try a raw diet on them following information I fond in a book my mother bought for me about holistic veterinary.  After about a week I found that my dogs were looking a bit dull and subdued so I put them back on a complete meal and they have one piece of fresh fruit a day. (pears go down a treat with mine)

  

Dogs changed over to a natural diet generally go through a detox process; much the same as we do when we just ingest fruits, juices and water!? :)  Hence why dogs tend to start looking ghastly as their body gets rid of the built up toxins collected over the years such as humectants, emulsifiers, preservatives, colourings etc etc. 

If you are not convinced about anything in life it is much better for all not to do it.  Your example of what is in hot dogs etc is precisely why I do not eat processed rubbish and neither do my dogs.  I never for example eat any meat that comes in a pie, sausage, faggot, mince etc; I also never eat anything that is made from mechanically recovered meat such as square ham etc!  Neither do I eat processed cheese; I know how these things are made and from what!  Bugs are far less harmful than several other things in processed foods.

Raw feeding is not new, on the contrary it is commercial dog food that is new; it has become the norm because a) of all the brain washing we have had over the years by the dog food industry, b) because most of us work and find convenience foods the "norm" in all situations c) because the human food industry (which owns all the big brand names) found an easy way to make a lot of money from the waste produced from human food production!

As for correct protein levels etc etc, this is impossible to quantify at the moment as the pet food industry are not obliged to say on the label what form the protein takes (eg complete or incomplete) and its bio-availability and so just because it says 28% protein on the label this actually means diddly squat to anyone unless they know the percentage of that protein that the dog can digest.  Leather is 100% protein, unfortunately if I fed my dog it he would be unable to access it!

You are under the impression that you "know" what is in the bag and its suitability because of the label but in actual fact you know less about the contents than if you fed fresh, organic meat and bones to your dogs unless you can correctly translate the label and unless you get more information than is currently available :) 

It always fascinates me when people want "scientifically correct and measured" ingredients for their animals but do not follow the same regime for themselves or their children :D

Joining a few reputable raw feeding lists and educating yourself via some excellent books on the market will demonstrate that you do not need a degree in nutrition to feed your dogs successfully.

The argument that most people do X is hardly a recommendation for anything.  Most people speed in their cars :)

There are a great many people who have extremely successful dogs in the show ring, field trials, working trials, agility, working trials and obedience that feed raw.

I personally would never revert to commercial dog food but that is my personal choice.  If people prefer to feed commercial food that is their choice; that is what is so wonderful about living in a democracy; but an INFORMED choice based on facts and evidence is surely a better than one based on advertising etc :D

Hi Tohme

I don't know why I bothered to reply on this thread - you say it so much more clearly :D

I would like to say though that the main reason I switched from complete to raw is a long term experiment.  So far all my dogs have died as a result of cancer and I want to see if giving them natural, rather than processed food will change this.  It may take a generation or two but I am not in a hurry and my dogs teeth look better since I changed, it is much less unpleasant cleaning up after them, since changing they have had NO stomach upsets or dire-rear which used to occur in each dog at least a couple of times a year and their coats, after the first couple of months look (and are) thick and glossy and it is easier to maintain their "figures".

It is logical that feeding more natural foods with cut down on allergies - it does with hyperactive and attention deficient children and the same with dogs.  Pet food manufacturers are out to make a profit - not to do their best for our dogs - only us owners really have the incentive to do that.

not had any trouble with Toby, his coat is still as good as it was before the change, i also give Toby fruit and veg his fav is apple and carrots,
Heidi

Maybe someone who is feeding BARF would like to tell me where they source their organic vegetables, fruit & meat from, so cheaply, that they can feed it to their dogs?    I'm certain that those that feed the   BARF way, if so against chemicals & preservatives in "complete" foods, would not be likely to source their raw materials from intensively produced farming methods???

Veggies  - these should make up no more than 10% at most of the diet and some do not feed at all.  Some grow their own organically, some, like me, have an arrangement with an organic grocer who gives me the things like carrot tops etc that people do not like to eat for a small contribution to his charity box.  My meat comes from Somerset organics; 60lb of organic chicken wings and chicken carcases cost me £16!

There are loads of organic places all over the UK where, if you go and pay a visit, telephone etc will give you or charge very little for bones etc.  Search the net or the Yellow Pages!

So basically it's like the "Doggie" atkins diet, all protein and very little else?

Bone, muscle meat, offal, veg, fruit, fish, eggs etc - hardly all protein  Remember that dogs are basically carnivoures, humans are not and so need a different diet

I buy extra veg and fruit when I get my own and it is one of my more expensive dog food outgoings although if I am lucky I can get the bits my local farm shop though away - this is usually better than that sold at local shops.  If you only have one or two dogs the outgoings are likely to be minimal.  We have a smokery in the county and I can get smoked fish etc offcuts from them

I don't tend to feed so much veg in the summer as my dogs clean up after the geese and get a lot of greenery (ready pureed - yuck) from them.

I've just been told that only 10% of the BARF diet is veg and some don't feed at all.......

Yep because this is the dog's natural diet.  Although not an obligate carnivore (like the cat who MUST source all its needs from meat) it IS nevertheless a carnivore (with omnivorous capabilities).  We know this first of all by observing its behaviour and what it prefers to eat and also by examining its physiology.

Carnivores can be identified by having their eyes at the front of the heads (herbivores and prey animals have theirs to the side), their jaws move only up and down (herbivores/omnivores move from side to side) their teeth are designed to slash, rip and tear (herbivores/omnivores have flat topped molars to masticate), they do not have digestive juices in their saliva to commence the breakdown of carbohydrates (herbivores/omnivores do), they have a large stomach (herbivores/omnivores have small stomachs or multi-chambered stomachs, they have very high acidic stomach contents (h/o do not), they have small intestines (h/o have longer ones to deal with all the cellulose, fruit, veg etc etc).

They do not need carbohydrates for energy as energy is provided by fats in the prey.  Roughage is provided by bones, hair and fur.  A varied source of proteins (including eggs) provide the majority of all vitamins and minerals (they synthesise their own Vitamin C).

In hard times and to fulfil their own particular tastes a small amount of vegetation/fruit is consumed when available, as are barks, faeces etc.

They have not, however, been designed to consume vast quantities of highly processed domestically produced grains which are incomplete proteins, cause fermentation in the gut (and hence bloat).

I can`t afford organic meat, after all I`m feeding 10 But they do get fit for human consumption food, if its good enough for me & the family it`s good enough for them :D
Grow some fruit & veggies ourselves but buy organic when I find them, otherwise they get the same as us :)
I am against the amount of chemicals, preservatives & additives in processed animal foods, theres a huge difference between whats in fresh meat & whats in them! :)

Christine, Spain.

By the way Pitcairn also does ecological recipes, all worked out for those worried about intense farming.

I admit now, i have only SKIMMED this thread, so if im talking biscuits shoot me now, ill go back an read it properly. (hey, its 5 am, im addicted to Showdog.com.....)

Several things that strike me here.......this term 'highest quality' commercial dog food. Yep, good idea, go for the absolute highest quality you can get.

Um, HOW do you judge that quality???? Is it on price? I can think of at least two top price  brands that i wouldnt feed a SLUG on! (for those who wish to know, they would be Hills Science Diet and Eukanuba).

So are u judging on what it says on the packet?? Presumably, since in all fairness this is ALL the average buyer has to go on. Fine, do you actually know how to interpret that information???? For example, ingredients have to be listed by quantity, highest first......UNLESS u break down that ingredient,,,,, say for example sugar.....do you know how many different things actually  mean sugar???? (this is just an example, i wouldnt know in a commercial dog food, its years since ive fed it!)

as an example  cos im having trouble explaining this....ill invent a dog food.

MAGIC DOG CHOW.....

Ingredients...

Organic Chicken
Wheat
Corn
Oats
sucrose
glucose
fructose

So, that looks (yes, i know those arent the actuall ingredients of dog food) not too bad, biggest ingredient by the laws of labelling is organic chicken.....thats good innit????

Mmmm, but wot if the percentages go like this:

Organic Chicken ....20%
Wheat              ....19%
Corn                ....19%
Oats                ....19%
glucose            ....10%
sucrose            ....8%
fructose           ....5%

Anyone see where im heading yet??? Obviously  not with those actual ingredients, no, but if you add them up, cereals are 57%, more than half the ingredients, another 23% is sugar, so in fact organic chicken is the lowest ingredient in the food, but by clever labelling it can be made to look like the main one!

Okay, that took me a while to make the point. basically, I DONT TRUST dog food manufacturers at all.

Lets face it, food manufacturers in general have got the public perfectly happy to eat shite that if you really knew the ingredients you wouldnt put it anywhere near ur body, never mind your mouth! So why on earth would dog food manufacturers be any better?

So, when ppl say, u need a degree or something to feed a dog a raw diet, i reckon ud need a Doctorate in nutrition, and a degree in labelling laws to find your way to a high quality dog food!

To feed raw, you need an open mind, common sense, patience and the ability to think for your self. Most of us on here have that???

Ive fed raw now for over a year and a half, best thing i ever did!

Oh, before i shut up, one other thing that sprang to mind, someone said that ALL their dogs previous to feeding a raw diet had died of cancer......anyone got the statistics on cancer deaths in dogs???

If as many people died of cancer as dogs do (comparative to numbers of dogs to humans or something).....ud think that a bit scary wouldnt u? so why accept that dogs die of cancer!!!!!!!!!!

Em (shutting up now honest!)

"To feed raw, you need an open mind, common sense, patience and the ability to think for your self. Most of us on here have that???"

So I must be an eejit because I feed a commercial complete then?      :(

So do I Lily, and the more people try to run something down the more I wonder why. If someone wants to feed raw and feel that they are able to do so, then fine, that is up to them. But if I want to feed complete to my dogs I don't want to be told I am somehow doing my dogs a disservice when I can see they are doing very well thank you. I know dogs who are fed on BARF or raw and all I can say is their owner must be getting it wrong because their dogs are no better than mine and at least two of them have problems that I would think of as food related.

Hi L/M, I`m sure Em didn`t mean that at all :)

The thing with raw feeding is that we`ve all been led to believe by the manu`s  it`s too darn difficult to feed our animals with fresh foods that none of us have the ability to do it & only the experts know how so leave it to them. A lot of us who used to feed processed food come about raw feeding when things went wrong with our dogs & the vast majority of us have seen the end to a lot of those probs & we can hardly believe how easy & simple the change over was & the results we see now with our dogs. I know the thing that gets me is the way those experts think we are fools not to be able to feed our dogs ourselves.
I`ve had the chance to sit down & chat with a few of the older breeders who have been feeding raw for the last 40/50 yrs, well ever since they`ve been into dogs & they would never change to complete in a million yrs. I never believed them when I was told their dogs didn`t have probs with allergies/fleas/worms etc & they couldn`t believe how often I used to be at the vet for those things I believe them now tho :D

Christine, Spain.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo nononononoooooo

That not wot i meant at all, sorry......

I meant, that we are pretty much all capable of feeding a nutritious and well balanced diet to our dogs without relying on mr pedigree or mr hills science diet or whoever.......we can all feed ourselves cant we, those who have children can do it, wots different about dogs?

Em

Em,

Price is one indication of quality, the lower the price the lower the cost of the ingredients the manufacturer has used in the mix.  I agree with you that quality goes well beyond price, especially since some of the most well known brands must have to recover a fortune spent on advertising before they can even cover the cost of the food. 

I do trust a number of dog food manufacturers, but I can count them without using all the fingers on one hand.  None of them a big manufacturers.  

The only food my dog gets that I am sure is rubbish are some treats for convenience, but even then I make a batch of my own every couple of weeks.

Every dog food manufacturer is not a spawn of the devil and some of us do know how to read ingredient labels.

Stacey

Oh, before i shut up, one other thing that sprang to mind, someone said that ALL their dogs previous to feeding a raw diet had died of cancer......

That was me, and I also said it is a long term experiment to see if feeding raw made a different.  My logic tells me it should but that it will take time, possibly more than one generation. 

One of the reasons that I suspect food as well as environment is that my daughter was fed chemically produced foods for nearly all her life as due to her brain damage she could not manage solids and was tube fed only liquds after the first 18 months or so of struggling.  She developed cancer at the age of 6 - so did another brain damaged child of our aquaintence fed similar foods.  We were put onto the Childhood Cancer Study so know from the tests done on our house and water that it was not due to radio waves, natural or unnatural radiation or the water supply (and many other things they tested for).

We all do our best for our dogs and there is no right or wrong way.  I just feel that my best is feeding raw.  My last litter, except for one, was raised completly on raw.  Only one owner reported that their pup had Pano - a common problem with growing Dobes - no prizes for guessing which one.

Hi Kerioak,

I would very much like some universally accepted and respected body to do feeding trials on dogs fed BARF versus commercial diets.   It is the only way to show what the results are en masse and in a controlled situation. So far the only studies I have seen have examined the diets fed by individual BARF and raw feeders, which found a large variation in nutritional balance and presence of food contaminants/bacteria.  And there was no attention given at all to the health of the dogs themselves.

So far there is little more than but anecdotal information, which tends to be at the extremes, either BARF is a miracle cure all or BARF is a short cut to a horrible early demise.   

The reasons for the increase in allergies and cancers in canines and humans I expect is a much more complicated mix than food alone. 

Stacey

Hi Stacey

I agree that the increase in cancers and allergies id downto more than food BUT I can't do anything about the chemicals in the air, that come down with the rain, car and factory emmissions etc but I can do something about what I feed my dogs.

To do a study such as you require would take many years and be somewhat unfair on the dogs would would be doing it - living in kennels etc - convenience food for dogs has really started to  evolve over the last twenty-five years?  Before that there were mixers and a few complete feeds.  Before that everyone fed whatever was available - sheeps heads, trotters, tripe, table scraps (that the chickens did not get)

Raw feeding is feeding variety, balanced over time, as we do for ourselves and trying to fit it to a dog's dietary needs.  Everybody feeding raw feeds slightly differently, according to what they can get hold of, their circumstances and their interpretation of the basic needs of a dog.  Some parents feed their children lots of crisps, biscuits, stuff like sunny-delight (has anyone ever read the ingredients on that!), frozen pies, pizza, fish fingers and all convenience foods others feed fresh meat, vegetables, home made cakes etc.  Where possible I feed my dogs and myself on the latter.  I am not saying that the former are wrong it is all down to choice and I strongly feel the two equate.

I was very sceptical of feeding raw for many years and only half did it for that time.  Since I changed over, even though as I say, my particular experiment is very long term I am very happy with the condition my dogs and would not change back unless circumstances forced me to.  I used to be against microchipping and for tattooing but am now open to both - experience, education and circumstances changed my mind . I try to keep an open mind about things where possible and remain willing to learn and try things out for myself.

"stuff like sunny-delight (has anyone ever read the ingredients on that!)"  

Yep, me Christine and I took the trouble to email them and tell them that I thought their product was utter rubbish! :D    Our local paper even included it in a review of fresh orange drinks once! Talk about brainwashing people. :(

Kath.

Although i have changed Tobys diet to one meal complete and the other barf, i have not done this because i think commercial complete diets are not good, i lost my 18 year old rosie at the begining of 2003 she was fed on a complete food and also butchers tripe, and she did well on it, the reason i have put Toby onto barf is purely that i think it is more natural for him (being a gundog) and you can see just how much he enjoys it, but i also give him fruit, veg,yogurt ect he has a beautiful coat and is very healthy, i wouldnt knock those of you that feed barf but i also wouldnt knock those that feed commercial complete diets either,
Heidi

That is my problem along with understanding the nutritional requirement of a dog, how can anyone say that tossing a dog the wing tips or back bone of a highly processed plucked glutted chicken is natural.

<how can anyone say that tossing a dog the wing tips or back bone of a highly processed plucked glutted chicken is natural>

Not as natural as giving them a dish of highly processed, heat treated extruded nuggets?

This is my first (and probably last) post on this thread. To all my fellow raw-feeders, why not just give up trying to convert commercial feeders?If they want to change they will, if not you are wasting your time.

Raw feeding is now fairly well known and if someone wishes to try it they will. Many people cannot even  feed themselves a healthy diet and exist on commercially prepared ready-meals, so they are hardly likely to be bothered to prepare their dogs food when they can just open a bag and put it in a dish.

Stop banging your heads against the wall and be thankful that there will always be thousands of people prepared to purchase commercial food which leaves us raw feeders easily available supplies at low cost. If everyone 'saw the light', we would pay a lot more as suppliers jumped on the bandwagon.

Some people claim that 'their grandfather lived to be 100 years old and smoked 60 cigarettes a day', its the same with dog food.

Snomaes

Why do you feel the need to try and convert people, a good few of us have been there, tried it and bought the tee shirt. We have decided what we want to feed and I can't understand the crusading attitude of those of you who have chosen, well at the moment at least, to feed raw. You do your thing and leave the rest of us to do ours.

Jackie

This started out as a question and developed into a discussion on Raw feeding.  Who said anything about converting people.  Those of us who feed raw have given our opinions as to why we do so and answered some of the misconceptions and questions but have not, from what I can see, tried to convert anyone. 

As is not unusual you have tried to kill the discussion on this particular subject stone dead by your comments as you obviously have not read the posts - feeding raw goes far beyond chucking a dog a chicken wing as you would know if you had been paying attention :)

You obviously don't want to feed raw, have nothing constructive to contribute on the subject so why join in?

Christine, Snomaes posted <<To all my fellow raw-feeders, why not just give up trying to convert commercial feeders?>>

That's where the subject of conversion was brought up.
:)

Hear hear,

A chicken that has been fed antibiotics since it was an egg too.....

If folk wish to chose BARF, fine, but I don't come on at every opportunity and give a long winded posting about the benefits of completes and how BARF feeders must be cruel to their dogs etc etc etc.......

This is how I feel about BARFers, any opportunity to run down those who feed their dogs commercial food and you're in there.    I know someone (Hope you don't mind me mentioning you, Kirsten?) who religiously follows a BARF diet with all her dogs and 2 still scratch no less than when on a complete.   

Ok, we feed complete but just leave us alone.......it's our choice.......... you'll just have to step off your soap boxes.  Don't preach to those that don't want to be converted!

I am not particularly interested in "converting" anyone; however when posters ask specific questions and want some information then I will reply :D 

I do not "run down" people who feed commercial food but merely try to point out that some of the arguments used to support commercial feeds are specious eg protein levels etc because you don't KNOW what the actual AVAILABLE protein is!  Only the manufacturer does!

A lot of people make choices that are uninformed; whatever you choose to feed, raw, commercial, 50:50, all I would say is make sure that you understand the pros and cons of each method and realise what you know and what you DON'T know about each method.

At the end of the day I am sure that all of us want what is best for our dogs and will continue to do what we think suits both them and our lifestyles and fits in with our philosophies.

The causal relationship between diet and health has long been well established in humans; the surface has barely been scratched with animals :(

Ok, we feed complete but just leave us alone.......it's our choice.......... you'll just have to step off your soap boxes.  Don't preach to those that don't want to be converted!

Ahem!!!  :)

The Heading on this particular thread is:

Bones and Raw Food (B.A.R.F.) diet.....

just in case anyone had not noticed