Hi,

I've asked a similar question to this before, but I'm now considering this more seriously. A breeder is breeding her merle bitch again next year, and the dog is one which I really want a pup from. There are only a few merles of this breed in this country, so I don't have that many options.
The breeder is planning on using a blue merle dog to this bitch which will be a repeat mating of her litter she had this year. In this years litter she had 3 pups - 2 good colour merle bitches and 1 dog with too much white, however he was not deaf.
What are the chances of the pups being deaf?
How likely is it that the pups have too much white on them?
If I bought one of this bitches litter, and bred it, would there be a chance some of the pups were mismarked as it already has merle to merle genes?

Thanks,

Char123

Hi,
If you google "merle genes" you will get lots of startling information. To start you off there is some here and here

Basically, merle to merle is likely to produce 25% of the puppies being mostly white, probably deaf, and possibly without eyes. And this breeder is stupid or uncaring enough to do it?

Run a mile.

Snap JG

I too would run a million miles from anyone this irresponsible

Jayne

So, once again colour is more important than health? If only mismarks would be your only problem. Read up about the Merle x Merle problem before you make any decisions.

Anwen, mearl to mearl does bring out mismarks but also increases the chance of puppies being deaf or blind.

If a dog is deaf or blind then there is a problem so therefore it should not be done.

Rox

Ice Queen I know that - that's what I was trying to say - mismarks would be the least of the problems.

Both parents are healthy, the pups from the last litter were healthy too, the only thing that was wrong with 1 of them was that he was mismarked.

Just out of interest, what breed is it you are talking about??
Gabrielle x

Border Collie but i imagine it would be the same for merle to merle in any breed

She was very fortunate last time (and having such a small litter helped) - next time she may have to cull the lot.

Sorry if we are talking border collie then I dont think its needed there is a big enough gene pool without having to do merle to merle.I thought from Char123 first post she said there wasnt many merles in this country?Gillian

what is wrong with people, colour and coat patterns should never ever take priority over health.

Char123 --- I remember you asking your question last time and if I remeber rightly I answered you last time as to why some breeders do Merle x merle ...

There would be no problems in you breeding a puppy out of this merle to merle cross so long as the said puppy wasnt a homozygous merle puppy.

You would be ok to take one of the other puppies but I always recommend that they be bred back to a solid purely for genetic and health reasons as the more you breed merle to merle the higher the incidence of problems.

For those of you who condemn merle to merle - it is not always possible to breed merle to solid  and as the case in my breeds early development ( the Australian Shepherd) had it not been for the many merle to merle breedings we would not have the foundation stock we have today.

Merle to Merle should not be done by anyone lightheartedly ... would I do merle to merle  I hear you ask -- YES  I would , if that was the only option left to me, if I could not find a solid dog with good structure , movement , temperament and HEALTH then I would use a Merle who had all of these qualities. With a breed such as ours that has such a small gene pool it is not easy to find dogs with such credentials... surely improving your breed is more important than just breeding purely for health clearances , how many instances have we seen of people just breeding two inferior quality dogs together and saying well they have their health clearances ! well thats as may be but, are those dogs improving the overall quality of the breed ???

Many breeders in the USA still do merle to merle crosses but these decisions are not taken easily and are done for what each individual breeder considers is best suited to the development of their particular line.

So Char123 I suggest you go back and ask your breeder her reasons why if you are happy with the answers then buy a puppy if you are not then seek another breeder.

Applethorn

Hi Applethorn,

Thanks for such a nice reply. The breeder is taking the breeding very seriously and is very experienced. There aren't many breeders of the breed anyway, and I've ruled some of them out as they dock their tails. Both dogs are of very good quality, in conformation, movement and health and have good temperments. I'm going to ask to be put on the waiting list for a pup, but will only get one if it isn't mismarked.

Thanks to everyone who replied.

Char123

...

Hi Jayne yes I understand where you are coming from but still think that merle to merle in Border Collies is not neccesary the gene pool is wide enough to find suitable dogs without chancing any extra health problems :) Gillian
Edited to add Char123 told me it wasnt Aussies she was looking at

Gillian

I wasnt just replying just to Char123 I was also addressing some of the other posts where the issue of merle to merle was being discussed and that it shouldnt be done in "ANY" breed .. I was replying as to why it WAS and IS done in our breed ( Aussies).

Whilst I agree there are enough Border Collies around , how do we know that this breeder doesnt feel that there are no other dogs other than the merle she has found that fit in with her breeding criteria? 

Without the breeder herself or himself on this list being able to defend his or her decision we shouldnt condemn their decision .. what we should do is answer the question in hand which was will the puppies from this breding be ok for Char123 to breed on with at a later date.

Jan quite rightly pointed her in the right direction with some links to some good pages on merle to merle breeding and its consequences etc ...

We are not here to condemn peoples breeding programs , we are here to help educate one another and answer peoples questions without judgment.
Sincerely
Applethorn

I just cannot understand anyone crossing 2 dogs together knowing that the potential for producing faulty puppies is there. If you did this with say 2 highly heart scored Boxers you'd be condemed. I don't believe there is any need to cross 2 merles together. You would get solids out of the same matings so why not use a solid sibling rather than a merle one?

Jesse

Poodlebabe

What happens if that Merle dog is the only one in the country as it was imported  ???  And The solid brother is somewhere like Australia or the USA or South Africa ????

You see its just not that simple... for a breed with a small gene pool its very hard work for any of its breeders ...

Applethorn

Well there is AI now so really that isn't that much of an excuse.

Jesse

Also you are both assuming there is a solid brother to breed to ... what happens if there wasnt a solid brother in the litter .. as so often happens ...?

I'm only replying to your post which mentioned the "what if" situation of a solid brother in Australia, South Africa, etc. :)

I'm still learning about merle to merle, because it isn't a situation that arises in my breed - but as an 'outsider' I'll admit to being horrified to learn of the health risk of this type of mating.

But as you say, all cases should be considered on their individual merits. My personal opinion (which may or may not be correct) is that merle-to-merle should only be very much a 'last resort', if there is absolutely no other alternative.
:)

With AI being acceptable when the dog is resident overseas, that really can't be used as a reason to mate merle to merle.
:)

Yes its is a reason Jan as the Kennel Club will not always give permission to use semen from a line that is already resident in this country .....

What happens if the merle brother is the best structured , best temperament has the best health clearances .. would you still use the inferior solid brother -- I wouldnt ..I know which choice as a responsible breeder dedicated to the improvement of my breed which choice I would make ... but then isnt it like a lot of things connected with the world of dog breeding and showing .. it comes down to each individuals choice .. and no one person should condemn another for their choice ... thats why we live in a free democracy  which allows us to make those choices !

This is my point entirely .. decisions like these should be left to individuals ... as this subject is one of those contentious issues .. not everyone is going to agree .. thats why on some subjects you have to learn to agree to disagree ...

Applethorn

I can see where you are coming from Jayne.

and I agree it is the breeders decision as to what dog is used and why that dog is used and for that breeder to take on the possible consequences.

BUT

I still think anyone taking a chance of this merle to merle breeding is honour bound to only sell resulting puppies for possible subsequent breeding to somone very experienced, or at least experienced enough not to need to ask questions such as Charl123 has asked.

Having some experience of a breed with a very small gene pool, small enough to need to import stock from abroad to open up the gene pool and where merle is a much valued colour.  I know that in that breed it is still much frowned upon to do a merle to merle mating.  It is only done very rarely and with strict guidelines to whom the resulting pups are sold on to.  At least by the breeders that I know in the breed.

Hi Lady Dazzle,

I didn't say I would breed it, only asked what would the resulting pups be like if I did, as I was just curious! I am not a breeder and at least for the near future don't intend to be :D thanks for replying :)

Char123

P.S What breed do you have?

Sorry Charl if that is the case and you only want the dog as a pet then no problem.

But from your first post it did sound as if that was what you intended to do :-)

I do not have the breed I am talking about but am closely involved with someone who does have them.

My own breed does not produce merle, but we do have a problem with one of the colours, which if continually mated together loses that colour all together.  Although thank goodness that particular colour does not produce health problems.

It isn't BC's, there's a wide enough gene pool not to need to do merle to merle.

Thanks to Jayne (Applethorn) - you have made the point so succintly - I was trying to explain to someone why I wouldn't do a merele to merle breeding (because I do NOT have enough experience) and why others who DO have the years of experience and knowledge - and love of Aussies - to do so!

Margotxx

Hi
   I think it would depend on the breed and the knowledge of the breeder. I have 2 dogs from a merle to merle mating one a BC who is deaf, and partially sighted  she was out af a litter of 5 the other 4 were ok but were all placed in pet homes. The other is a Rough Collie she is not deaf but is badly affected CEA and will not be bred from.( not sure if this is due to the merle mating) There were 6 in the litter all had sight and hearing, but a previous litter had to be put to sleep when it was found they had no eyes.( the same sire and dam)
    I would understand a breeder that has a breed with a small gene pool attempting this mating and would be prepared to deal with any problems this may produce. I would talk with the breeder of the pup you want about the mating. she should have the knowledge of her breed and lines.It is possible to produce defective pups but its also possible to get a good litter!
                          Sheila
PS the Border Collie mating was an accident with my own bitch , the Rough Collie was bred by someone else  

Hi Sheila,

Good grief :( - how on earth could anyone repeat a mating when they'd had the previous ones all born deformed!!!!  Now that is the sort of thing that gives dog breeders a bad name.  As you say, the CEA situation does not necessarily relate to this at all though in your girl.

Have sat and watched this topic without replying, but my two penn'orth - would not ever do a merle to merle mating myself, as could not risk the above scenario, my dogs are my babies.  However, I can see how people would be tempted - people would think that Rough Collies have a large gene pool with plenty available, but the situation on available stud dogs for us has been dire recently, and I know a couple of people have considered merle-merle on this basis as a good tricolour stud is difficult to track down.

Not for me though!

M.

HI Char123 didnt think it was from your first post thats why I sent you the link I did  but got a bit mixed up later :) Hope you end up with what you want.Gillian

Sorry if I sound thick everyone but what is merle x merle breeding? I have never heard of merle before :(

Hi Zoe merle as in blue merle or red merle in basic terms a colour . However it is more complicated than that in real terms as it is a gene which acts on the colour genes and dilutes it( even that is a fairly simplified version)  :) Gillian

Here's what can happen :-(

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