I have a friend who has a boxer pup which is 11wks old, went to visit her yesterday and for the 1st time had a look at the pups pedigree and was very shocked to see that the parents of this pup are brother and sister! and this goes on through the whole pedigree apart from one generation which was missed, my friend not knowing much about dogs didn't realise this until i told her and is now worried incase she has problems with her. Is there such a thing as downs syndrome in dogs?? as this pup has very funny looking eyes, can anyone help or give there views on what they would do? and can there be some sort of mental health problems with this in breeding being so close? :)

Such a breeding of itself will not produce problems, but it will make any problems carried recesively by the parents more likley to come out in the offspring as the number of variables have been reduced.

I remember reading that the Lowchen breed was almost entirely established or re-established by mating this way as there were so few of the breed to use, they were lucky and the ofundati8on stock must have been very healthy as the breed does not seem to have a lot of health problems, despite the tiny initial gene pool.

Doing brother to sister breedings for generations is highly questionable practice, and downright iresponsilbe in the average non genetiscist.

There are strains of very healthy Laboratory mice etc that are deliberately inbred like this to make them more alike, and therefore the results of tests more acuarate, but of course selection for viability would be severe, and not what could be practised in dog breeding.

thanks brainless, i am still unsure what to advise my friend tho in regards of keeping this puppy...my friend has rang the breeder this morning and she said that its the way she breeds them to keep the same lines going :rolleyes:

anyone else got any comments on this situation?? :)

We have a very limited gene pool in my breed & if you study the matings done in the early days, they were all extremely close, but to carry on doing brother/sister matings seems very irresponsible, particularly in a numerically large breed like Boxers. Inbreeding has a bad name but, done informatively & with a full knowledge of the dogs involved it can improve stock, but done without thought it is a recipe for disaster.
You can only get out of a mating what you put in, so if you've got healthy dogs of good temperament, that's what you should get out - until you come to recessive genes of course, the closer related the parents, the more likely they both are to carry these. I don't know enough about Boxers to comment on hereditary conditions tho'.
However, if both the parents have good temperaments, then there is no reason why the pup shouldn't have a good temperament.
There are many horror stories about inbreeding, mostly greatly exaggerated but it is not something which should be carried out by novices.
If your friend is concerned, the only thing she could do is to investigate the health of relations of her puppy to see if there are any issues which keep occurring.

I recall reading about a sighthound kennel (think it was Afghans) that practiced close inbreeding over many years with now negative effects but as Brainless says you have got to start with genetically healthy stock to get away with this, and no one can know how for certain what genetic problems are lurking there until they do it. Also continued close breeding can eventually lead to reduction in fertility.

There can be perfectly good reasons for a very close mating eg brother/sister or mother/son once, but IMHO it's more good luck than good judgement if you continue doing it over many generations without running into problems. A geneticist or ver experienced breder might perhaps do it in order to in order to expose genetic problems in the line but they'd need to be prepared to follow up every pup closely and cull hard if things do go horribly wrong.

I think I'd want a better reason from the breeder than to "them to keep the same lines going". Most of us try to do that, but not by continuous brother/sister matings.

My breed has a very small gene pool but there is no way that I wd. do this kind of mating although I know someone who has!!!  The closest I've mated is grandfather to grand-daughter, but I won't be doing it again, not that there was anything wrong, but this is the closest that I wd. want to go. 

Why someone in Boxers wd. do this kind of mating defies me!

many people do bro/sis matings and pups are fine in themselves but it does not do the best for qulity (guess who went on a line breeding seminar!!!!)  I would think that your find will be ok to keep this puppy if she loves him, but if she gets another one then maybe go to a different line.

Rox

Jacki
did you friend ask about the pups pedigree when she went to see the pup ?
I Guess what I am trying to say is did the breeder give out any information at the time as to pups lineage or did she try to mislead your friend. And is your friend hoping to breed from the pup in the future ?
I dont know much about genetics but if isnt recommended for humans I fail to see how it can be ok in dogs either . Have you tried to see how any past litters have fared ??

hi lel, no my friend never asked about the pedigree as i said she's not really up to date on stuff like this, the breeder never said anything to her about this either, as for her breeding i think she would have liked to, do you think it would be ok for her if she used a different line all together? not really sure how to go about finding any other pups that have previously been bred, my friend paid £500 for her :)

As I say Jacki I know nothing about genetics and really couldnt offer any advice .
As someone mentioned earlier there could be major problems in progeny in the future . I really couldnt offer advice on this one .

If the dam and sire are shown then there's probably a good chance that "some" pups will be too . Maybe worth putting the names into google and seeing if anything comes up and maybe contact other owners that way ??? Just an idea but It might be worth a go .
You may hear of any health problems that they have encountered with theirs .
Do you know how many generations there have been over the years from this breeder ?
If pup is bred with another line will it cause problems - I couldnt say but its a possibility (isnt everything??)

If you friend is wanting to breed it wont do her reputation any good should the resulting pups encounter any health problems because of this. :(  :(

Hello Jacki,

I could possibly understand a brother sister mating if you had a small genepool of dogs on offer but I'm not sure I understand in a breed such as Boxers but even in a small numbered breed then I think I would be very very careful as with brother sister you are not introducing anything new into the mating, although you may be "fixing" a fault.
The more experienced breeders may be able to follow through with the genetics, I would not think the "average" person would have the experience or the confidence to do it. Surely though if you are just breeding brother to sister throughout a 5 generation pedigree and with only one other introduced you would not be getting anything "different" in any of the litters? So unless you started with "ideal" boxers you would not be getting "ideal" boxers?

Lel asks a good question have you/your friend seen other pups from the litter or any from other litters still with the breeder (as this appears to be common practice).    

Karen

Edited to ask
Opps forgot to ask has your friend took the pup to the vets or found out if the problem with her eyes are "hereditary" or just a one off?

my friend did see the rest of the litter when she went to see the pups, think there was 9 pups all together mostly brindle and reds, only 1 white...the breeder said she has been breeding boxers for 15years so maybe she does know what she was doing :) i was just shocked as i have never known of a litter in any breed to be so closely related, maybe this pup will be fine but who knows! my friend just doesn't want constant vet bills and the pup suffering from inherited illnesses all its life, which i can understand :)

Only time will tell :(

Just because someone has been doing something for "x" amount of years is no guarantee that it is right!  Experience does not necessarily equate with knowledge or know how!

I would think the most worrying thing to concern me if I was the owner is that sometimes problems dont show themselves for some generations....

Though I wouldn't want to go down this particular route (I've only been in my breed for 30 years, and don't consider myself expert enough) at least close breeding like this can't create genetic problems. It will certainly highlight what is already there.

But doesnt human inbreeding cause genetic problems ( mal deformities and even madness???) :(
Lel

inbreeding per se does not CAUSE problems however it will exacerbate/expose defects that exist in the genes; eg if there are recessive genes which, when doubled up, will result in serious medical problems; either physical or possibly mental.

A lot of people/animals are born with a predisposition to something which may or may not be triggered by an environmental factor as well; that is why gene exploration is so important.

So am I right when I said "inbreeding" would "fix" a fault wether it be good or bad?

Karen

Jacki
have a look at these sites for further information ( cant do links - sorry)

http://www.boxerunderground.com/bu2000/april2002/downside_of_inbreeding.htm

&

http://www.petsmart.com/dog/answers/natural_health/articles/article_6966.shtml
Hope that gives some info
lesley

thanks lel, will look now :)

Nope inbreeding cannot cause a problem that isn't already in the genetci makeup.  what it sies do is enabole recesssive genes to have more chance of getting paired up, and if these have a negative effecdt then it will apear more often in inbred stock sue to there being less variables.

Bit like tha national lottery.  there are only 49 numbers, but the chances of the same 6 coming out twicwe are millions to one.  Now with the thunderball game you need fewer matched numbers to get a prize.  All organisms carry genetic rubbish, and there is mutatuon to contend with also.  Mother nature is always experimenting with the iodd new version, if uit works it will prosper and reproduce, if it doesn't then natural selection will take care of it.

Mutations in coat colour and pattern are common, and some species like Rabbits will be different colours and shades depending on the environment.

Albinism crops up fairly frequently (does in people also) but usually it is not perpetuated too far, as the animals with this trait are usually at a disadvantage in the survival stakes.

Yeap thats what I'm saying (I think) like if mom has untidy ears and dad has untidy ears and they are litter brother and sister then you have a higher chance of the pups having untidy ears than if you bred one of the parents to a dog with good ears?

Does that make sense? ie you have therefore not improved the fault just "fixed" it in the breeding?

Karen 

Hi all just giving you an update, i have rang the breeder for my friend explaining that she cannot keep her as she is worried about the in breeding...she said she wont take her back and wont give a refund either, now my friend is gutted as she knows it will be hard to sell this puppy on with an in bred pedigree, this lady is suppose to be a good boxer breeder and shows her dogs too! i said to her "so you don't mind the pup being sold on and not know where she is?" and she said yes she's bothered but hasn't got the room for the pup...altho she has kept a pup herself which is still in the whelping box....i thought reputable breeders took there pups back, my friend has only had her 2 weeks and the woman even said she still has people ringing her, so now i'm getting mad

Admin edit

Didn't your friend say she also bred English Mastiffs?

So if the breeder still has people ringing her for a pup then what is the problem ?? Surely she wll be able to rehome it - especially to someone who doesnt want to breed ?
Do you have any form of contract re: rehoming or did she verbally mention this at any time to you ?

yes staffie she does breed bull mastiffs too...she did say to my friend verbally if there was any problems to go back to her yes, whats her problem?

Sad situation all around, but like they say you learn from your mistakes. It's a shame your friend didn't take a little more advice before buying a puppy especially one should "thinks" she might like to breed. A big name in the show business etc doed not neccesarily mean they breed good stock.

Karen

As tohme says, inbreeding cannot cause problems that don't exist already. It cannot create new genes. It will only accentuate the characteristics that already exist. It will bring out any recessives that in each individual parent are masked, but when put together some of the offspring will inherit the recessive from both parents. It is through doing this that recessive genes are discovered. If both parents have superbly 'healthy' genes, then, even if they are brother and sister, those are the only genes the pups can inherit, so they too will have 'healthy' genes. However, in reality, there are unlikely to be creatures without some recessive defects.

Inbreeding can, in many cases, be much less of a genetic gamble than an outcross.

The thing is the person hasn't got a problem with the dog, it's just that she's worried that because they are so closely bred that there could be a problem.  didn't she know this beforehand and if she did maybe she should of researched more before buying.  Don't want to be awful, but even the most cared for and well thought out lines can have problems, you just never know.  Let you friend carry on loving it as it is, why does she now have to sell it?

she wants to sell it because she is worried about the problems it may have...nowt to do with me i can't make her keep it i'm just trying to help her :)

Thanks JG, the breeder said on the phone that she hasn't had one pup out of any litter with any defects or problems when theyr'e older so she doesn't know why my friend is worrying, its my fault cos i have put the doubts in her mind...but i just think its wrong to breed so many litters with brother/sister matings, she has the mothers sisters too and is using there brothers to breed with, can't get my head round it meself

I think the most important thing to be sure of (this is Boxers we're talking about, isn't it?) is that the line is entirely free of heart defects (a major problem in boxers). If this breeder can show that all the dogs she has bred (and is breeding from) have clear hearts, then she could have a very useful gene pool. I doubt very much that every pup she has ever bred has been tested by a specialist, though.

It's not a breeding regime I would choose to do - maybe once in every 3rd or 4th generation, but in between I'd go a bit further out to somewhat more distant relations - but them I'm much more cautious!

Hang on can I step back a couple here if your friend brought a puppy without researching the breeder or the pups pedigree how could she know the pup would/might/may be good enough to breed from anyway. And there is no saying the pup will turn out good enough to breed from regardless of the "inbreeding"

She has had the pup 2 weeks I understand from the posts that the breeder has made no secret of the fact the pup was "inbred" so why not keep the pup you have no guarantees with any pup that nothing will go wrong. You can only do the best you can to research before you buy, what does the breeder say about her eyes? is it something she has come across before.

If the breeder is still getting calls about pups copuld she not mention your friend wants to sell her pup on?

Karen

she didn't know wether the pup would be good enough to breed from, don't think anyone knows that as you say any dog could give problems on that score. When the breeder showed the parents to my friend she never said they were brother and sister, she said i'm not sure about the lines till i get the pedigrees done because i have a lot of boxers and get them mixed up....if that had been me i wouldn't have bought her......the breeder says her eyes are like this because she is young, i am going to show these posts to my friend 2moro and let her make her mind up then, i have told her to sleep on it and also consider not breeding if she keeps her, so will see what 2moro brings.....my pups don't want to loose there little friend, theyv'e only just met :)

It might not be the ideal way to breed, although I know that years ago a lot of closer inbreeding went on by very experienced breeders and very sucessfully, as well as stamping a type it can also as someone else has said show up any recessive problems. So that future breeding can be aimed to eradicate them.

I agree with JG as far as I am aware the main health problems that Boxers experience are heart problems.  If this breeder has sucessfully managed to eradicate that problem then she has been very clever.

But my biggest concern in all this is that poor little puppy.  If your friend now rehomes or sells it on, what a confused little baby that is going to be. Being pushed from pillar to post is not the ideal start in life for any puppy.

Puppies are not like a washing machine or a cooker, if problems arise they are not covered by a guarantee, and as someone else also said, the best, most well thought out mating in the world can produce problems either early or later on, its the chance you take when you buy an animal.  I think before rushing into any decision they should at least talk more to the breeder and their vet, who presumely has checked this pup out for any health problems including heart murmurs.

It may well be that this pup will have no problems at all either now or in the future, but personally I would find it very difficult to part with a puppy without having all the facts.

As regards Vet Fees, there is no reason that the pup cannot be health insured, so there should be no more cost for this one than a puppy bred differently.

I would suggest that they re-think the situation and hang on to the pup for a while.  If any problems then arise, they will have re-course to get back to the breeder and get a refund if those problems can be proved to be as a result of her breeding methods.

But please please make them think of this poor little pup who is not at fault in any of this at all.

Regards

Jayne

HERE here Jayne,

I mean with regard to insurance they insure mongrels and no one knows who their parents were do they?

Your friend may have a beautiful pup but no-one can guarantee you of that when you buy a pup.
Please ask them to reconsider :)
Karen

just posted a post but its gone above you two, take a look :)

would a half brother to half sister mating  be viewed in the same way, ie classed as inbreeding?im hopeless at genetics but it isn't as close as full siblings is it.I just know of someone who breeds this way.

Thats not as bad as sister/brother but still in breeding because they are related, i'm not condoning (sp) it cos i know sometimes it can be done but not with every litter but we learn something new everyday don't we and i have certainly had my eyes opened today :) as a few of you say this poor little puppy is innocent in all this and maybe i should bring her home here if my friend doesn't want her :) i just want to cuddle her she is so cute :(

The point is, Jacki, is that it's only bad if the parents have bad genes. If they are both the best examples of their breed, with no hereditary defects, then there's no problem with such a close mating.

But you have to know every individual in the pedigree, and be prepared to cull the whole litter if you've got it wrong, to do this frequently.

I'll bet you friend would love you to have her back there with you :-)

Half brother half sister classes as line breeding as opposed to in breeding and that along with grandfather granddaughter are said to be the best to methods of breeding to keep type. 

Just came across this quite unintentionally when browsing for something else but thought it was a very good way of simplifying linebreeding -
(Actually comes from a Stafford enthusiast)

"Does line breeding really work,"
well in this and many other cases I could quote, the answer has to be a resounding yes. Though getting back to the pudding analogy, any cook will tell you that the quality of a pudding depends upon the quality of the ingredients, the skill of the cook and the recipe they use. The same applies to the management and breeding of dogs, we should all be using the same recipe, i.e., the Kennel Club Breed Standard. The method of choosing the best ingredients available, preparing them, then bringing them together to produce a Stafford that conforms as close to the Standard as possible and posseses the ability to pass on its qualities to future generations is down to the individual's knowledge of the breed, both its form and function, their perseverence and a bit of that magical ingredient -- good luck! If carried out with due care and attention, line breeding can be a powerful tool to use in a breeding programme and one that has been used by succesful breeders not only in Staffords but all breeds for many years.

Personally I am happy to line breed but don't think I would risk in breeding :-)

Jacki what has your friend decided to do?

Karen

she has decided to keep the pup, she said to thank you all for your advice as it has helped her to make up her mind :) so the puppy still has her loving home and everyone is happy (thank goodness)...... i was worn out with it all last night so glad its sorted, thanks again everyone :)

Just to clarify, is a one off brother/sister mating ok? I always thought it was a bad thing, although my GR pup was produced by an accidental mating of brother and sister. The owners (Friends of my sisters) were pretty nieve and the bitch ended up pregnant shortly before the male had to be rehomed because they were moving. Both parents were KC reg and i understand good examples of the breed with lovely temperaments. Partly the reason why we got the pup. She is not KC registered of course as they were not breeders, and unfortunately we do not know hip scores and such (which i know is not good, but both parents seemed ok and their parents had average hip scores), and i have no intention of breeding her. She is a lovely pup with a really great temperament so i have no misgivings, as she needed a home and we provided one. But i always felt "ashamed" that she was in bred - i didn't know actual breeders sometimes intentionally did this.

Delighted to hear of your friends decision.

But do tell her to try and not see problems where there aren't any, quite a temptation I would think.

Jayne