Excuse me for my ignorance; I purchased a miniature poodle to be delivered this Monday (7 weeks).  The breeder said that the poodle is trained to do her needs in the cage that as a grilled bottom and advised me to purchase the same type of cage.  I want to start the right way, and I am trying to find research on it with no avail!
What are your opinions and experience?  Thank-you.

gobsmacked!!!!!   not only must  the poodle be on mesh---but its trained to "GO" in its cage-most dogs hate going in there cage, non of this seems right,   :(

That is how I read it dizzy and decided I must have misunderstood. Does not make a lot of sense, may be the poster should speak to the breeder again. One has visions of stacks of cages piled one on the other, heaven help the dog at the bottom.

its certainly got to be a lot easier for the breeder i suppose------saves them the time of trying to get the puppy house trained-------sorry, but id not go there, makes you wonder what other corners have been cut,

The crate as a pan under the grill to catch the soil.  The breeder is trying to sell me the crate.  I did some shopping and found the crates at a few pet stores.  But I have not purchased it because I am confused.  I can't find a book that talk about it.  But I have to make up my mind quick seeing I am taking delivery of the puppy this Monday, and I hate to confuse the puppy by changing crates and methods of relieving herself.

Tell the breeder you have one, get your pup (make sure she is healthy and you get ALL the paperwork there and then), take her home, and start housetraining her from scratch. To keep a 7 week pup in a crate in which she is expected to relieve herself is not right - she is not a rabbit in a hutch - she needs to learn to go outside ;)

Hi Jackie, I have seen mesh bottomed cages, but there is a tray lined with newspaper under the mesh.
Dawn R.

Sounds a bit like battery hens to me, but I don't think I understand why the dog would be trained to go into a cage to relieve it's self. Outside would be best but if they can't be done why not paper or a litter tray.

Eneldo, I do not accept that a 7 week old puppy is 'trained' to do anything, it's far too young. It may well be accustomed to doing it's toilet in a mesh bottom cage, because nothing else has been available to it. Puppies need comfort in their cage, so a nice thick piece of fleece will be much more welcome than mesh to sleep on. It's machine washable so accidents won't matter too much, get 2 or 3 pieces for changes. Spend lots and lots of time with the puppy and teach it to expect to toilet in the garden. Baby puppies pee and poo at least hourly if not more, so train yourself to take this baby outside at least that often, and expect lots of mistakes, house training is a messy business .
I wish you lots of fun with your new puppy.
Dawn R.

Thank-you Dawn,
I have to train it on newspaper because this time of the year it is to cold here in Quebec.  I'm afraid her paws will freeze.
I have been reading a book where it says to spray water with a little bit of bleach on the newspaper, is this because to get the puppy trained to the smell where it has to pooh?

Hi Eneldo

You may get away with using a cat litter tray for her if she is small enough - this has the benefit that she will not view every piece of paper laying on the floor as a toilet area.

If she has been living on a mesh cage make sure her feet are okay - have you seen her yet or will it be for the first time when she is delivered?  If this is the case can you get the breeder to meet you at your vet's so you can check she is fit before you take delivery?

In the UK, where I think most of us are, breeders do not deliver pups as a rule unless they don't want the new owners to see the surroundings in which the pups have been raised, the purchaser goes to the breeder.

We have to go to the breeder or pet shop to pick it up.  But they offer a warranty for the first 10 days to have our Vet visit and than a year for inherited defects.  I have seen the poodle last week with her Mom.  The mom is a 7 pound miniature while the dad is a 4 pound toy, so the puppy is expected to reach 6 pounds.
In the cat littler, do I just put newspapers in it or do I put cat litter sand?  Thank-you.

OH dear I better not get into this. why do breeders recomend this type of thing makes me sad.

You go to the breeder or the petshop to get your puppy Me personally I would look else where for my puppy and get your pup from a well bred breeder. Are both parents tested for herditary/genetic defects ect? Do they normally cross a miniture with a toy, and can they still be registered? Sorry but I wouldn't buy off of these people, how many other breeds do they breed or cross, how are all the parents and puppies kept? I kept mine in my living room where they were use to being handled and the noise of everyday life. Would never keep my pups on a wiremesh that just screams puppy mill to me. here Sorry but it does :(

:(

In a lot of coated breeds, in the USA, pups (and older dogs) are kept in "X-Pens"  These are collapsible cages with wire bottoms and trays underneath to catch the soil.  Usually considerably bigger than we would think of as a cage - Am. Cockers, for instances are often kept in 4'x4' x-pens, while a 3'x3' might be used while at shows.  Main reason is to keep coats clean.  Traveling crates also have cage bottoms for these breeds (we use them for ours over here)  my 8 month old pup sleeps in hers, in case of accidents (very good so far, though).  Some breeders alternate pups in x-pen and run (hopefully few keep them in x-pens all the time).  It is an accepted way of keeping dogs on the other side of the Atlantic.  Dont see it as either desirable or necessary for a single, tiny, pet.

Looking at the litter tray idea, I know a lot of Chihuahua people have litter trays filled with shredded  paper, which the chis happily use.  Thinking about the original post, and how tiny your pup will be, I would certainly invest in a crate or puppy pen, to keep her safe during busy time in your household.
bye
Gwen

Thanks for that alternative view Gwen - I was thinking this was another troll untill you posted :o

Hi Nikki

In different countries some things are done, and thought of, differently which is why, even if  suspicious we (mostly) try to answer carefully in case it is a real enquiry.

In this case I would tend to advise the new owner to look elsewhere for his pup, it may be perfectly okay but from what s/he says it sounds as if s/he will be supporting a puppy mill/farmer as puppies should be purchased directly from the breeder and never shops or dealers

Happy New Year everyone

Christine

Eneldo,
Do you know how many litters this breeder has had, say in the last year? If it's more than 2, I would definately go elsewhere. As this is a Miniature x toy, I doubt it will be CKC Reg, so you will have no papers for it. It may be disappointing not to get your puppy tomorrow, but you would be much better buying from a reputable breeder.

Anwen,
There are many type of breeders here.  There are the ones where they raise less than 6 pups a year where they come from champion lines.  And they insist that the pup as to be neutered; Then there are pet stores that you have no clue of the parents history.  Then there are puppy mills that are real torture chambers.  And there are the puppy mills that are clean and careful of the dogs they breed.  This puppy mill was recommended by my vet where it has a reputation of being clean and treat the dogs well.  I took a tour of the mill and checked out the mom and dad.  I am looking for a poodle as part of our family member, and not interested in shows and breeding, therefore registration was not an issue for me.  What is important is that the puppy is a poodle and is healthy.  From what I understand is, poodles are not originally made by nature but started off by mixing breeds until a new breed was created, with 3 different sizes.  Than to me it made perfectly senses that a miniature with a toy are from the same family just different sizes, and for me there was no chance of the dogs being inbreed since one is a miniature and the other is a toy.  Let's face it, even if I try to get a poodle from a breeder that breeds less than 6 pups a year, how do I know for sure that the Dad is really the father who got the Mom pregnant and it is really not a close relative of the Mom.
Even though I have every intention to neuter my pub at 8 months, I was upset that the breeder is playing God to contractually force me to neuter the pup.  If they care so much about the pup, then it is against nature and it is cruel to neuter.  It is all about money!  It is like me telling you that you have to neuter their human children.
I know this is going to upset most readers, but I do speak my mine.  I did take everyone advise and did purchase a crate with no mesh.  I think the one who had most impact is the guy who said they are not rabbits.
Thank-you.

Hi Eneldo

Thanks for your reponse - as we only know people and their dogs from what they tell (us) it can sometimes be difficult.

Please stay with Champdogs and tell us how you get on with your poodle pup - what are you going to call her?

As to what to put in the litter tray - whatever you can most easily get hold of and dispose of, or, have one of each and see which she prefers.  Maybe even fresh snow if your climate in Quebec is anything like I imagine it to be so she can get used to this :)

Christine

Well, poodles are not my breed but I know that there are reputable breeders in the US who are perfectly reasonable and do NOT insist on puppies being neutered. Obviously, you've researched this & are happy to purchase from a breeder who is producing puppies for profit. Your choice.
Just a small point -registration is not important - do you have a copy of the puppy's pedigree? If so, why should you believe in its accuracy any more than from a breed specialist. If not, you have no way of knowing whether or not the puppy is inbred or not. How do you the father hasn't been mated to his daughter?

Hi Anwen, Indeed, unless both parents are DNA tested, and the DNA results are recorded on the relevant countries KC records, how do we know any pedigree is accurate?  To repeat my oft stated bit, a pedigree is only as truthful as the person who wrote it!  Regardless of registration etc. the breeder puts the details down, if they want to cheat the system, they simply register the details they want to see.  This might not be the method we would choose (or recomend) by which to buy a puppy, but if Eneldo and her vet are satisfied that the pup has been well reared and is healthy and the purchase is going ahead, would we not serve a more useful purpose in helping a novice get the new arrival settled in and helping out with any problems which might arise, rather that being a bit too "preachified " and turning them away from the board?

Eneldo, do let us know how your new babe takes to its new home,
bye
Gwen

Thank-you

The pub "Ruby" is doing great.  During the day I leave the crate door open.  She returns to it by herself when she is hungry or sleepy.  She releives herself on the pad about 50% of the time.  Not bad for a pub that is not even a week with us.  Thanks.

Hi eneldo,  glad to9 know she is doing well. 
bye
Gwen

Hi Eneldo,

I suspect that your vet probably does business with the puppy farm - hence the recommendation.  That said, I am sure some puppy farms are better than others.  If the one you have found actually let you tour the premises that is a very good sign.   I would research poodles very carefully and make sure that all of the relevant health checks have been done on your puppy's parents. 

"Good" breeders often require spay and neuter for their puppies that go to pet homes.  They do that because in their view the puppy does not come close enough to the standard for the breed.  They do not want it to breed because they do not believe its offspring would contribute to the future of the breed. And even when a show quality puppy is sold to a pet home they want to be certain that at some point in the future it will not be bred solely to make money or just for fun or whatever -- without concern to the quality of the sire/dam or health checks.  It's not playing God.  It's loving a breed and caring about its future.  If it were all about money these breeders would forget about showing (its too expensive) and forget about choosing the best sires for their bitches (stud fees are expensive and travelling to bring bitch together with stud time consuming and expensive, and forget about health checks (more expense again) -- and well, if these breeders cared about money more than the breed they would run a puppy mill.

I am glad you purchased a crate with no mesh. Crates with mesh bottoms are used mostly in puppy mills and pet shops.  The owners do not want to take the time to clean the pups and they do not have the space to give them enough room to get away from their own mess.  I used to show dogs in the US and belonged to several dog clubs - and contrary to what another poster said and does, I never saw or heard of puppies raised in those type of cages.  I knew many show breeders of long coated breeds and never saw these types of cages used at shows either.  Not saying it is never done, but it is certainly was not typical in my area.  There would certainly be no need for a mesh bottomed cage with a poodle. 

Best of luck with your new puppy.  I am sure she will be happy and loved.

Stacey

Hi Stacey,
It was me who posted about the mesh floored X-pens.  In cockers (ie American cockers) it is the norm to house them this way, from the time the pups are speerated from Mum.  Having visited the homes of several respected, caring breeders in the USA, all had x-pens in their dog rooms, and most of them had mesh flooring in solid floored runs too!  (Not on gravel of course.)  I will be at the Spaniel club Show in Philadelphia next week, and in the Tack Room every Cocker present (American & English) plus the Springers will all be in X-pens or crates with mesh floors..  There will be several hundred dogs housed in this way for the weekend.  This is the case at every show I have attended in the USA, wherever.  It is perhaps a breed thing rather than a geographical thing.  I know it is also common with breeds such at Tibetan Terriers etc.  However, I have certainly never seen a pen floor suitable for a Toy Poodle, and as previously stated dont think it all necessary for any pet dog.

bye
Gwen

Excuse me, but I was chocked and speechless when I read this.

Apparently we keep dogs in a totally different way in Denmark!

First dogs being kept in crates! Now a crates with a litterbox! I'm sorry, but one of the reasons for me getting my puppy, Luna, was to get out walking. I got pretty lazy at home, but couldn't give myself the kick in the behind, and beside that I needed some company.

Luna is left in the appartment when I'm at work, she is in my hall and kitchen. I don't know anyone who has a crate for their dog, yes in their cars but not in the homes!

Is this normal in other countries?

Crates are an invaluable tool for preventing damage, both to the house and the puppy; just like playpens for babies!

They are fantastic for housetraining dogs as their area is confined and so they are more likely to keep that area clean.

Brilliant for visiting relatives who may be dog unfriendly or have dog unfriendly homes, hotels, where you need to ensure the safety of puppies, chambermaids and furnishings :D

Excellent for confining sick dogs and separating them from fitter, more rambunctious members of the canine (and human) family.

Whilst they should NOT be used for very long periods correct crate training provides a useful nook for dogs to retire to; they are denning animals and would naturally choose a small, cave etc in the wild.

Dogs less than 6 months do not require huge amount of walking.

Of course crate training, like anything else, can be abused.  But because of their benefits should not be demonised.

One area that is often overlooked is that they can preserve the dog/owner relationship should the former be destructive.

I use crates on occasions, for young puppies, visiting people, whelping etc but, sadly they are misused. I have seen owners in multi-dog homes where the dogs are kept like so many Budgies - and then they wonder why their dogs have poor temperaments or why they don't move very well. Like everything else they are a useful tool which can be abused.

Tohme

You have missed out another excellent use for a crate.

To put babies and sleepy toddlers in to keep them safe from dogs - that is what I tell their parents anyway.  I much prefer to crate (visiting) children than my dogs :D

Christine

:D :D :D

Hi

Yes I can see a good use for them, especially if you have more than one dog.

But Luna has been confined another way - if you can call it that. She has just had the hallway to move around in.

Jeanette

Hi Tohme

No I know they don't need walks for hours,  but they need to go out and meet other dogs and smells.

I have two cats, they live indoor, partly because I live on the 3. floor. But if I didn't want to go for walks and really just wanted som company, I would get a cat, and not a dog.

But maybe thats just me, thinking like that?

Jeanette

Hi Bellaluna, yes it is completely normal to use a crate/cage in the UK. Of course not everyone uses them, but those that do will tell you that it speeds up the house training, and provides and safe cozy den to sleep in when the boss is out of the house. I have American Cockers and an Irish Setter, and the Yankees have a crate each for their bed. The Irish Setter has one of those oval plastic dog beds. You would laugh at the sight of a big male Irish squeezing into a crate belonging to an American Cocker. They love there crates.
Dawn R.

Hi Dawn

I can understand the crates. But I can't understand that the dog is supposed to releave herself in a crate!

I thought, when we get dogs we know, that they need to go outside and releave themselves. And investigate the surroundings and meet other dogs.

But maybe thats just me?

Jeanette

Hi Jeanette,

The dog or puppy is not supposed to relieve themselves in the crate.  This obviously works against housetraining a puppy, since they get used to living in (or on top of) their own mess.   One of the reasons a crate works so well for housetraining is that a healthy, well raised dog does not want to soil in their own bed. 

The crates with mesh bottoms are used almost exclusively by puppy mills and pet shops.  Two types of businesses who think of puppies as livestock (at best) and care only that their stock is sold.  

As another poster said, however, apparently these mesh bottom crates are now being used on the show circuit for convenience.  And maybe by some small breeders as well.  I have not lived in the US for the past seven years, so perhaps this is something new.   I do not agree with it and I doubt most people would either.   Besides the hygiene factor a mesh bottom crate cannot do a puppy's or dog's paws any good.

Stacey

Hi Stacey

Okay, then I feel better.

I live in Denmark, and english is therefor not my first language, and maybe I interpret things in a wrong way sometimes.

I have a friend who HAS a crate for her dog, but it isn't left in there for more than a couple of hours, and they are now training her to be alone without being in the crate.

I could probably have used a crate myself these past two weeks. I had offered to babysit a rottweiler male puppy, 6½ months old for a month. It didn't go so well, when he was in my appartment with my own puppy almost 9 months old, a lab bitch named Luna. He couldn't sit still for more than a couple of seconds, which is not so good since  I live on the 3. floor and my downstairs neighbour were not especially happy with me!

I spend more time in his place, where he seemed to calm down. Thankfully a familymember has offered to move in for the last two weeks, because Tyson were more alone at home, than I liked.

Have a happy new year.

Jeanette and Luna

Hi, Stacey, as I said before, perhaps this is a breed thing - what breed were you invovled with in the USA?  It has been the accepted norm on the show circuit for many years to use the X-pen type play pen, both at home and on the show circuit.    I have been visitng Spaniel Club and the nationals for over 10 years now, and have seen no change in what is used.  Looking at my Cocker books going back many years, pics from the 60's and 70' show similar accomodation.  All the pro-handler I know, with long coated breeds use them,  and yes, the dogs are trained/encourage to go the the toilet in them.  The dogs who are living at home seem to understand the difference between house training and what is expected in an ex pen, and the dogs who come from the big kennels are often not house trained anyway.  Obviously these dogs receive excercise/ free play as well, or they would not maintain the muscle tone/condition to win in the ring.

The pups I have seen (and yes I am talking about some small breeders but also top kennels) use newspaper to line the mesh for the babes, as they grow they paper is replaced under the grid.  I am certainly not talking puppy mills here!  However in a heavily coated breed, expecially with parti colours, it avoids staining.  and of course give the dogs a lot more room than just a cage.  2 cockers in a 4 x 4 x-pen can move around, play, and snuggle up.  We are talking shows which last 2-4 days, this gives them the benefit of space which the cage just does not for this period.  And as the dogs often used this type of arrangement at home they feel less unsettled.

The poster from Denmark and whoever was concerned about feet - when I talked about Am. cockers in x pens I am not saying they are kept in cages all the time - I am sure this practice is only thought acceptab le by puppy farms etc.  However, all our show dogs sleep in either cages with mesh bottoms or in ex-pens.  Through the day they are in heavy mesh bottomed runs. Keeps feet and coat dry.  They have good, tight, hard feet -no problems at all.  Also get daily excercise and play time to keep muscle condition, mental alertness and happiness!

Oh, and a note on litter trays - most Chihuahua breeder/exhibitors I know have them - Chis not keen on going out in the cold, have real problems in heavy winds and rain etc.  They are happy to use a litter tray with shredded newspaper.  I think we all have to realise that different breeds have different ways and needs - a very tiny dog need some special consideration, what works for a Lab or a Rottie is often not the answer for a tiny toy!

bye
Gwen

Hi Gwen,

I was involved with GSDs and Cairns.  However, I belonged to an all breed club and had a number of friends who had long coated breeds.  Yorkie breeders I knew would keep the coats of show dogs oiled and rolled up. Certainly the mini poodle breeder I knew never used the mesh bottomed pens, there would be no need.  No one I knew used the mesh bottomed crates or pens.   Lots of people used X-pens with the plastic, permeable woven "rugs" covering the grass or dirt outside.  I never saw the meshed bottomed varieties in used at a show site, or even for sale at trade stands, but then again I was not looking for them either.

Stacey

Hi,  Stacey, perhaps you never strayed near the sporting groups tack areas/grooming areas?  Look in the Cherrybrook catalogue (or any of the other big show/grooming supply catalogues & websites).  They are the norm in cockers, TTs, Lhasas, ShihTxus etc, etc, 
But as I said in my original post, I cant see they are remotely necessary or useful for a single tiny pup.  Incidentally, they do have uses outside of the show circuit.   My smaller (3'x2') x-pen was invaluable when Dexter was in post operative recovery following spinal surgery.  He had to be contained to avoid unecessary movement, and was allowed out for 5 mins every 2 hours into a restircted area for toileting.  With his x-pen, if he was "caught short" between his toilet times he could relieve himself without worrying (which he would have worried about in a sleeping crate) and was away from any soiled area immediatley.  It also meant I could lift him easily and carefully through the top, rather than having to pull him out through a door (better for him and easier on my back)
Gwen

Hi Gwen,

One of the things I do miss from the U.S. re shows is having all the breeds on the same day, apart from the open shows here in the U.K.  Straying, shopping and gossiping were major activities on the show circuit!  :-)   At one time I even looked into starting a Cherrybrook franchise, I figured it would keep me around dogs and I'd give myself a good discount! 

I honestly just never noticed anyone using the mesh bottom crates or knew anyone who did use them.  I was mostly on the East Coast and it was seven years ago now, so maybe things have changed.  I used a professional handler for my Cairn (the dog I bought to show myself!) and they never used the mesh bottom X-pens or crates either.  She and her associates seemed to mostly show terriers, but Westies certainly have big problems maintaining a white coat. Dogs peeing on each other from neighboring X-pens was always fun for an outsider to watch.  LOL.

I never thought of the mesh bottoms being useful for a poorly dog, but they sound like a very good idea for that purpose.

As a complete aside, one of the GSDs handler's wives decided to buy and show an American cocker.  She thought it was the only breed of dog that moved as fluidly as a GSD. 

Stacey

Hi Stacey,  Never been lucky enough to go to an all breed show yet in the USA - we just get to go over for the Spaniel Club and Spaniel Nationals - 3 days of heaven - 900 entered next week, showing from Friday through to Sunday.  Cherrybrook are my absolute favourite  show supplier - try to stock up on trips as the import tax really hits home when  you send for things by mail order!  Tend to have to pay a little excess baggage when bringing big things such as X-pens & tack boxes though!  I think with Terriers etc you dont have the  problem of the coat "mopping up' the puddles etc like we do with the flowing coats on the Yankees! Always pleased to hear of someone admiring one of my breeds features that is often overlooked - movement - in the standard it says "above all they must be merry" and on top of this a try sporting spaniel, movement must be sound, true and stylish.  A great cocker, motoring around the ring with drive and attitude is truly something to see!
bye
Gwen