Hi all,
I'm very stressed right now as I took the dogs out this morning as usual and as we were wandering along we passed an old chap with a small dog on a lead, normally this is no big deal except today Lucy(rotty) went for the dog totally out of the blue. Thankfully she didn't harm the other dog and as soon as I shouted she came away but I have to admit I am shocked and at a total blank as to why she did it. I have never had any problems with her in this way in the 4 yrs we have had her, she is a rescue dog so we don't know her past but this is so out of character. Normally I never put her on her lead when we meet other dogs, unless the owner asks me to. If I do start to do this I'm concerned that it will give her the message that meeting other dogs is a problem and this will make her worse.
is it possible that her actions have something to do with the arrival of Buddy a month ago, although they do get on really well but I guess that doesn't mean she isn't jealous. I'm concerned that I can't really deal with the problem until I know what caused it.
So any suggestions please as I'm sure someone will come up with something so simple that I've been overlooking it:)

I know you feel bad and this isn't going to make you feel better
Rottys can be seriously intimidating to other dog owners when not on a lead and you have just reinforced that opinion. How many people will that poor elderly man tell about his experience and what does that do for the reputation of rotty owners and their dogs?
As for suggestions on what to do, how about putting her on a lead when you see another dog coming
Ted

Personally I wouldn't put my dog on a lead every time I came across another dog as I don't want my dog to start thinking 'here comes a dog - Mum want's me on my lead, I don't fancy an end to play time, I'm going to run away.......' I'd asses the situation, knowing my dog, and observing the other dog and asses the risk from there...... A mistake was made this time, so this situation needs reviewing by this owner - classes would be a good idea, to check out the dogs general socialisation skills :-)

Fran

I don't understand the problem of having the dog on a lead when walking down pedestrian walk ways. We have leash laws in most parts of the US, and the reason is because of the above example of what can potential happen. Maybe it could be a child the dog starts to go after next, dogs can be very unpredictable, even if they have been with you "forever". Leads are just a way to keep your dog and those around them safe.

Bumblebeaacres, the same rules apply in UK. Dogs have to be on a lead on a public highway.

I imagine this was in the park, not the street. I wonder if the little dog was on the lead whether it was the agressor, possibly eyeballing, bristling or growling at the rottie? If it was on the lead in a public part it could be because it is iffy with other dogs, I have often found this to be the case, but my dogs are very good with the 'leave it' command whiuch I use when walking past garden gates with barking dogs, so they know to ignore the taunts. This is a standard excersise that the training class I go to uses. Each handler walks round the hall past the other dogs and handlers, making sure their dog ignores the sitting dogs, and those seated are made to ignore the passerby. The dogs are kept on the opposite side of handler, so that the handlers pass closest to each other.

I'm a little confused here. Coincidently as I read this thread I am also reading a book on training puppies (Any men reading this... this is called multi-tasking and may be something you find quite scary!!! ;) )

I'll paraphrase the book here:-

'When you see another dog, put your puppy on the lead, speak to the other owner and if their dog is friendly then let them play. This allows your puppy to trust other dogs, as he won't be jumped on by one which isn't friendly, and will only have good experiences so will never develop an aggressive reaction to other dogs.'

I have been reading this board long enough to realise that there can be quite different - often completely opposite - views from people who are vastly experienced in training dogs and puppies. With our dog we always let him approach unchecked any dog which was off the lead and never let him approach one on the lead. This seemed to have the desired effect.

I would be interested to hear what other people think, of the opinion in the book I have outlined above, the method which we always employed with our dog and the other methods which have been described earlier in this thread.

Thanks :)

Linda

Fran,
classes are something I will look into, she was 'assessed' at the dogs home and they decided she was fine with dogs except other rottys but we have never found her to have a problem with other rottys!!

Ted
I don't expect sympathy and I am more than aware of what this does for a rottys image.I intend to keep her on her lead from now on, but I don't think it was wrong that she wasn't on a lead as she has never been aggressive to other dogs, most of the time she ignores them and if she does show an interest I call her to heel. If the other dog is on a lead and the owners asks me to put lucy on hers for whatever reason I do, so I don't think I am irresponsible

Just wanted to ask you if maybe the situation was different to anything you've experienced in the past, as you don't know lucys complete hisory. Have you come across that particular dog before, or that breed, etc? A friends dog behaved like this with a bull mastiff, but continued to be fine with other dogs, just had to avoid mastiffs. Never found out the reason but it was still a solution. As ted says though do put her on the lead when coming across other dogs, at least for a while, it would be terrible (for you and the other dog owner) if something were to happen. Don't avoid the other odgs, just have her on the lead and she shouldn't associate it with other dogs. Do try to be careful that your stress/tension is not transmitted to her though, as that really could exacerbate the problem.

We haven't actually come across the chap and his dog before, and we go out the same time every day so we do tend to see the same people and dogs regularly. I agree with you about keeping her on the lead but not transmitting anxiety to her, I used to work with horses and they are hyper sensitive to changes in body tension etc, I tend to apply similar principles to the dogs as we did with the horses which is why I didn't put her on a lead as soon as another dog comes into view as that can give the message: I am scared, protect me
or: other dogs are a problem we must be on guard.
I know not everyone will agree

HI Julie

YOU sound very sensible to me - don't worry too much but be on your guard.

One way to deal with it is to as others have said, assess EVERYTHING that happend. Years ago my teenage Terv went for a GSd and it took me a while to suss out that it was in fact because the GSD had come between us and my lad took itas an insult/threat - well he was rather hormonal then and protective, I just had to say "steady" in a slow voice after that as he was so sensitive to voice, so just see if it could have been the breed, or anything else.

If it has worried you, train her to a baskerville muzzle and that will at least keep other dogs safe. To be honest, from what you have said, it just sounds like a "spat" which can occasionally happen :D

You could perfect her recall, and also try getting her keen on toys maybe? So every time she passes a dog well behaved she gets a tuggy or whatever....this is very effective. Even call her to you when a dog appears, then when it has passed throw the toy and she will strt to think, hey, a dog is coming, yippeee i now get to play and have my toy. Make it a special toy on ly fo such occasions. Aftrer a while she may even come to you in anticipation so you will feel better and have her under more control.

LINDSAY

Julie

I am no expert by far but one thing that springs to mind taken from similar discussions we have had on this board is the little signs that dogs give off that us humans tend to miss. How do you know your dog wasn't provoked by the other one, it could be something simple like eye contact, or different wag of the tail, easily missed in my opinion.

Also you mention Buddy who I presume is another dog (?) Was Buddy with you at the time, could your dog have been over protective either of Buddy or of you? Even if your dog has always been friendly with other dogs I would say you need to be watchful anyway as you never know what is round the corner, what might provoke your dog or what the other dog is like.

If you are out walking and see another dog but don't particularly want to put your dog back on the lead then depending on what your recall is like and the size of area you are walking in eg. field or narrow track you could try recalling your dog to you then walking off in another direction, that way your dog just things "oh mum wants to go that way now" and you're happy cos you haven't had to put your dog back on the lead. I always put my dogs on the lead when approaching other dogs but I turn it into a positive by recalling the dog to me as if I was going to do it anyway regardless of the fact another dog is approaching, I make them sit, clip their leads on then give them praise, I then walk them to heal asking them to listen/look at me not the other dog until we pass. I also do this even when there are no other dogs around so there is no pattern that my dogs could pick up on.

HTH. :-)

Lindsay,
Thank you, the toy idea is something that I know would work with her, she might pretend she's too old and tired most of the time but she can never resist a toy!
Hopefully it was just a spat with that particular dog, and as we've never seen it before we might be lucky and never see it again

I do think it's irresponible not to have control of a dog when approaching others. I forget the number of times other dogs have lunged at mine, ignored their owners instructions, and then caused me problems. And what's the first thing they say? 'Oh, he's never done that before. There, there, naughty dog'. They walk off and leave the other person possibly with a dog that then gets nervous around other dogs.

You, and only you, are responsible for your animal's actions, and the law states that you must be in control. The next time it takes off may be under a car or at a kid.

Dave. Sorry, i know this was not my question, but i feel obliged to reply your post. I did not read that her dog was not under control, in fact i read that Lucy recalled when spoken to, and in fact did no harm. In fact she is being a very responsible dog-owner in asking peoples advice and being careful until the problem is resolved. I am guessing that your dog is always wonderfully behaved, and never gives off any signals to these badly behaved dogs? The amount of times peolple have become protective of their dogs the minute thet see me is much more annoying, trust me. I have a stafford, and people naturally assume that they are all aggressive, etc, and actually treat her very badly when all she is doing is playing. I am not saying that this is you, and maybe you are surrounded by some very aggresive badly behaved dogs, but all that bounces towards you is not on the attack!

ive owned and shown rotts for many years, also temperament tested them and done police tests on some, ---out of courtesy to others and also for peace of mind not only for there dogs but also mine -they where ALWAYS recalled as another dog approached, the dogs got so used to this that if they saw another dog coming theyd come back to me to have a lead attatched---i wouldnt think it would make them feel that dogs must all be bad etc, but i did have mine under control if the other dog caused any problems---mine couldnt as it was with me!!! rotts are very biddable but also very arrogant in their attitude to other dogs, any dog seen as squaring up ,eyeballing etc will not be taken lightly by most rotts, therefore if youve got hold of them then your dog cant get the blame---as someone said how many people say--hes never done that before-perhaps he hasn't ,but the oppurtunity shouldnt of arisen, -after passing whichever dog mine had been called back for ,id let them back off the lead and make a fuss of them to let them know how good theyd been, sounds strange but they seemed pleased to come back to me when they saw another dog as they knew they where going to have a fuss made of them very soon,
several times while walking past someone their dog has gone for mine--imagine if mine had been loose at the time, i couldnt of comtrolled the situation at all and it could of very quickly got well out of hand,
as for all dogs bouncing toward you not going to attack --are we supposed to just sit it out and hope its one of our lucky days and the dog flying toward you is only coming to say hello--should we wait until its fastened onto the dog we've got out before we decide perhaps it wasnt that freindly after all, because your dogs freindly doesnt help us with the many others who aren't. this puts a dog owner in an awful position as theyre watching the dog flying toward theirs wondering what its going to do ---its not on and is only polite to walk your dog past leashed,

Cleopatra, the fact that it attacked another dog proves that it wasn't under control. Like all animals, and humans come to think of it, they are unpredictable, and should be treated as such. I know it didn't do any physical harm, but what about phsycological harm? I'm sure she (and all of us) has learnt a valuable lesson, fortunately in this case without apparent harm. But we are responsible for the actions of our dogs, predictable or not, and we have to accept that. Sadly, no, my dogs are not always well behaved, which is why I am extremely careful. And having had my own dogs attacked, I am very careful about their effect on other's dogs. I don't know if mine sense my tension in certain situations, but if they do, then they will also be able to sense the impending bollocking they will get should they step out of line!

I don't get protective, just careful. Only last week someone was in the local paper after her dog got run over and killed after it bolted when a firework went off. The fact that it wasn't on a lead didn't seem to concern her, only blaming fireworks/yobbos/speed of cars etc.

Dave, Please do not think that i was writing a personal attack on you, i just read the original post differently. When it said "went for" i assummed that the rotty made aggressive movements towards, not actually attacked. My stafford was attcked by a german shepard when only 16 weeks old for no apparent reason, and from that point on has been very wary of that type of dog, so i know what its like to be on the receiving end. I just found the irresponsible owner reference a bit harsh on the original poster, as she does not strike me as such. I have no problem with other dogs approaching my bitch, BUT owners who see their dog has bounded away but do nothing about it drives me crazy and thats what i call irresponsible, even if the dog is the friendliest thing on the planet.
I apologise again if i have caused offense, or if i myself sound harsh. Its just that many people would see my breed permantly muzzled, if not worse, and i become protective of people (not you!) saying that its in the dogs nature and what do you expect.
No harm done??

I used to work with horses, compete as well (and hope to again very soon), and as with dogs its all to do with pressure on lead/rein. I also have a dog that other people think is aggressive (stafford) and spend a lot of my time saying "don't worry, shes ok". Sometimes its other peoples anxiety that can put your dog on guard. Just a thought!

My dogs are upset if another dog stares at them, it could be that it was the other dogs body language that upset your rottie,no doubt if your dog had it in mind to do more than warn then the outcome would have been worse. None of that is of any help I think I'm trying to say it is sometimes not possible to know why a dog reacts in a certain way and think I would attend classes with the dog in order to assess the dogs ability to mix with other dog in different circumstances and in the mean time keep her on a lead. JH

If the dog were not on a pavement but on playing fields or commons then a dog off a lead is okay as there is space for them to enjoy being out and off the lead and I love to see them enjoying themselves when we are out walking our pup but I really believe that any dog on a pavement should be on a lead. I would be petrified if a large dog came up to me, friendly or not, but not on a lead. I still wouldnt feel comfortable if it were to walk past me as I am sure I would let out signals that I was scared being in a quite confined space on a narrow pavement. May be a bit silly of me but that is what I am like around dogs I do not know......big dogs I do know are no problem at all. Regards Gina. I am not posting in answer to any particular person just a general post.

Julie,
I dont believe that you should wait for the owner of dogs you are passing to ask you to put your dog on a lead. That puts them in an embarrasing situation and is unfair when they are out to enjoy a walk. I am pleased you will now put her on a lead, I wont have to worry about meeting you when I walk my dogs now.
Owners of rottys, staffies etc must accept wether they like it or not that their breed of dog frighten some people, quite a few I am sure. Even if your own dog is 100%, because of many macho bad owners they have this reputation and it is irresponsible in my opinion to ignore this fact and have the attitude that 'my dog is fine and everybody else must accept that and not be afraid' It is a similar situation that 'decent' men find themselves in when walking at night behind a woman on her own, I would expect them to appreciate that could be intimidating for the woman and act accordingly by leaving a biger gap etc.
Ted

Ted, you hit it on the nail (as far as I am concerned). I know (not personally BUTbecause I lived as a neighbour with some of these idiots for many years) men who live in council flats who had rotties, dobermans and, mostly, bull terrier types (bull pits included as I am going back a few years) who had to have this sort of dog to make them look macho. And as there are a lot of decent people living in council accommodation these dogs got a bad name because they were associated with these sort of silly people. Funnily enough the dogs themselves were nearly always lovely dogs it was the owners that others were wary of (and frightened of and probably still are), and they used their dogs to make them look stronger. The older one gets the more stupid these sort of people look but when one is young, growing up with these idiotic people, it was the owners that gave the dogs a bad name NOT THE DOGS and I have every admiration for people who keep them nowadays because they must come in for a lot of unnecessary abuse sometimes. I am replying in particular to your points about people having rotts and staffies, i.e. the wrong sort of people when I was younger not the intelligent people who have them on this site. I can say this cos I was brought up this way when I was a child and into my early 20's and (think) Iknow from experience. I am not knocking what I do not know. That is why I am stilll scared of large unleased dogs. BUT I have great admiration for people who lool after this sort of dog properly because they are really lovely dogs. Regards Gina.

Quite frankly I'm stunned at the tone of some of these posts. If I put my dogs on a lead everytime another dog approached they'd never have any time off the lead at all. Lucky all of you who can walk your dogs without seeing another dog. I dont think Julie has done anything wrong and with all due respect personally I would find that putting a large dog of a breed with a reputation (not rightly deserved) would convey a worse image than one being off lead and being slightly aggressive.
Julie I would agree with what others have said and that is go through EVERYTHING that went on. Do you know whether this man walks past your house or near your property everyday? That could be part of it I know my lot detest the spaniels over the road because they are let out 5 - 6 times everyday off lead to use the local green near my house as their personal loo (meaning large bare patches in the grass becase they use it so often despite their owner having a garden) so my dogs have to 'defend' their territory 5 - 6 times everyday and I dread to think what would happen if my lot were off lead when these dogs were around.

I personally agree with the tone of these posts! Nobody while walking down a public street should have to worry about a dog, big or small, what ever breed you have, not being under constant control. If you want to let your dog off lead, find a place that is appropriate, or make sure you have a fenced garden where your dog can play. This is another aspect of ownership that should be carefully thought out BEFORE getting a puppy. Dogs are not (as mentioned before) reliable creatures, and deserve our protection in public places. That in short means having them on a leash. Sorry if that truth hurts, but it is THE truth. Anyting can happen on the street and people should take adaquete measures to insure EVERYONES saftey including your pets.

I don't remember seeing anywhere it being said that the rottie was off lead in the street, which is strictly against the law! I have assumewd that she was in a public open space and the other dog was being walked on lead.

bec, if your dogs are in your garden and the spaniels are outside of it ,what is it theyre defending your garden from????is it not just the terrier instinct to fly at most dogs going past, are the spaniels the only ones they do it to ,are you saying that they ignore other dogs that come by,? as for the fact you couldnt be putting your dogs on a lead as theyd never be off and then continue to say you dread to think what would happen if you bumped into these dogs while yours where loose--- how responsibles that -- and to say that putting a large breed on a lead would convey a worse message than one being loose and slightly aggressive get real please!!!

putting twopennyworth in here my dogs are the most non aggressive going but when a dog is coming towards us if I put them on the lead they go all defensive if however I call them to me and keep them occupied with a ball or whatever the other dogs passes by no problem,dogs feel threatened on the lead and the most gentle dog will go all defensive,I am talking about in the park here not the street

by your dogs go on the defensive, do you mean that theyre cringing or attacking, or have i misread it, if theyre on the attack then i wouldnt say that theyre the most non aggresive dogs going, what do you do at shows or whatever when you need to put them on a lead, do they behave on the defensive then, what happened to them to make them react this way when theyre put onto a lead--ive never had this before with any of mine, this must cause problems for you at times if youve got to have them on a lead and another approaches you, poor dogs , what happened,

I'll answer your post as politely as I can firstly I do show my dogs and have done for a long time they are quite happy to mix at shows , be benched etc...but any one with half a brain and knows anything about dogs will tell you that a loose dog off the lead approaching a dog on the lead the dog on the lead will feel defensive,they are animals after all!,my dogs are well trained and are show dogs as well as much loved pets I said IF i put them on the lead!
Let me say also that i have read all your posts today and if you dont mind me saying I find some of them a little challenging and quick to attack or take the P**s, almost squaring up for a fight. Sorry I'm not indulging you cant be bothered!

Mattie I am not going to be any ones champion here, but I think you have dizzy all wrong, she does come out with it as she see's it . but her questions are direct and without malice , she is not huffy so therefore she does not expect anyone to be huffy. I would say you were very hard on her , she was not insulting anyone at all. she is just a very straight person . but I have never seen her posts get personal .Im sorrry but that is just how I see it.

sorry I disagree

could you point the offending post out to me,

Dizzy, there are certain reactions which all dogs exhibit to a greater or lesser degree and if you have not yet learned to recognise them then maybe you are not as experienced as you seem!

John

Dizzy for someone who has supposedly been in dogs as long as you have to fail to understand why a dog defends its territory beggars belief. What do you mean what are my dogs defending my garden for. They are defending it because it is 'theirs', something they feel safe and secure in and therefore it requires defending. Theres me thinking all this is basic knowledge, clearly not from some of the comments here. You clearly believe it is far more responsible to allow spaniels loose in the street, foul all over a public green and continually allow them to harress those legitimately on their own property. What makes this worse is their owner is a veterinary nurse, someone who should clearly know better.
No it isnt the usual terrier instinct to fly at everything and mine are perfectly behaved in the ring on a lead. However, terriers are terriers and whilst the vast majority of them wont start a fight they certainly would finish it.
So what is your reaction if someone with a large dog coming towards you suddenly puts it on a lead. I'll tell you, the first thing you would think of is that dog is aggressive otherwise why would they need to put it on a lead. Having had most of my dogs attacked by dogs that are so outwardly aggressive that not only should they be put on a lead but should be muzzled to. However, I wouldnt condemn any of those breeds to be permenantly put on and off a lead every time they approached another dog. It would make any walk a hindrance rather than a pleasure.

no bec, i dont agree at all with the spaniels running loose, its not on ,the point im trying to make is one you more or less make yourself. having had your dogs attacked by others that are aggresive--this is the point im making, if you have your dog on a lead ,no matter what the dog coming toward you is about to do then you've got control of the situation, im not saying if someone comes up with a feindly dog and you have time to see how they react and want to let them off together that its wrong, ive been in a position like many of us have, out walking the dog and you see one flying up toward yours, usually with the owner screaming for it to return ,as the dog isnt taking the blindest bit notice this do's nothing to instill confidence in me, so how do you react .tell me, do you wait and see if its going to attack your dogs while yours are out of reach , do you bring yours back to you and hope the one flying up will fly on past you---its the position i find myself in that gets to me, you dont know the intention of the dog, do you wait until its too late to find out??? of course theres many lovley dogs, big and small that wouldnt hurt a fly, wether on or off leads their temperaments ideal, but how do you know if this is one iof them , this is the point im trying to make--also that as the original question stated ,how do you know that your normally placid or steady dog is going to behave this time, it only takes it to react and then where would we all be, with the new laws in force you need to be so careful , by leashing your dog it shows respect for the other dog walker also keeps yopur dog out of trouble too, -- to answer your question about what do i feel if i see a large dog coming toward me and its put onto a lead- I FEEL RELIEVED, as im not wondering whats going to happen when we get up close, i know its owner has control over it,

Dizz cant make head nor tale of that

which bit is confusing ,,can you tell me that you've never had a dog flying toward yours that you'd rather had been on a lead, the problem i have is how far do you let the dog come up to yours before you make a descision as to what its going to do, i find that that an awful position to be in, if you misread it and it bites your dog then id feel really awful as i think the dogs rely on you to make sure everythings ok, then again if you think its about to attack yours how near do you let it get before you take some sort of action, of course only to be told by the owner that it wasnt going to do anything to your dog at all--this is the bit i have a job with, its only my opinion but i really do feel happier and much safer if oncoming dogs are put onto a leash before they pass, it takes all the woirry out of the situation,

Having had my dogs attacked whilst they HAVE been on leads it makes no difference in fact I'd rather my dogs were off a lead so they can run away rather than being forced to have to fight because their is no other alternative due to being restricted by the lead. This is the Flight or fight scenario which every dog has to consider every time they are put into a situation. This is why you get dogs that are perfect off a lead but the minute you put them on a lead they go alldefensive because they have NO OTHER OPTION.
My dogs have been attacked off lead whilst I have been standing next to them.
Do you really think that just because a dog is on a lead that it is under total control? Do you really think that anyone could control a large powerful dog weighing in at 8 stone who decided that it did really want to kill the dog coming towards it? I've been pulled over by my Boxer, not because he is aggressive far from it, but because he decided he wanted to go another way. If they catch you unawares or are just too powerful for you then forget it lead or no lead.

Hi Dizzy, errrrrmm, the answer to your question strikes me as this....Becs dogs are defending her house and garden from the other dogs sniffing around their gate and fence. Most dogs do this if a strange dog threatens their territory.I would say it was more unusual for a dog NOT to do this. I keep one of the most placid breeds in the world, but even they create a racket if a stray dog comes in the front gate.

the point i was making was that bec was saying how much her dogs hated the spaniels because they came around her garden , i asked if it was just the spaniels as id imagine terriers would have a go . i meant in the garden ,not at shows, also the fact that she stated if her dogs where loose shed hate to think what would happen if she bumped into them , i didnt think it would just be the spaniels was my point, didnt appear to of come over properly,
i know dogs guard their gardens, mine do it, i dont see it so much as theyre guarding it as having a dam good game watching for something they can scare away,

any dog will defend their garden even my little maltese goes apeshit when someone walks past we are talking DOGS here for gods sake......please dizzy take time to read what you have posted and lets see how it comes out you asked ME what my dogs did at shows not bec

if you reread it you'll find bec said hers go nuts in the garden but behave at a dog show on a lead- i know what i asked you but you didnt want to talk to me about it.
i still and always will worry when i see a loose dog coming up at mine, i dont know the dog, the person, its temperament at all,so i must apoligize for my obviously very wrong opinion but thats the one i have,