I have a 6 month old ESS bitch. The vet said I can have her speyed anytime now, but some gundog owners/trainers say leave it till after the first season, for some reason they can't explain! As I have her booked up for a lot of gundog training sessions over the next 6 months, sooner would suit me better. Does anyone have any opinions about this?

In my (all be it limited) experience - the earlier a dog is spayed the less maturing she goes on to do, it's almost as if speying stops the growing up process - my Lab cross who was spayed at 7 months remained very much a puppy all her life - my ESS cross who is 9 and still not spayed is mature and sedate (unless provoked by my 2 year old ESS - who will be spayed soon). By allowing her at least one season you can be sure they've matured as much as possible......

JMHO

Fran

Also have you been told about the change to the Springer coat after spaying. It becomes very wooly and curly usualy, making it a lot harder to groom. Most neutered ESS of my aquaintance are regularly clipped off to remain looking decent and not like some strange breed of sheep. watch the hair growth in the ears especially!

I'm sorry but the very suggestion of spaying a baby makes me so angry I'm almost afraid to answer. The sex hormones are required for the bitch or dog to fully mature, would you consider sending your 14 year old child for such an operation. JH

Not only is it not fair on the bitch to be spayed at 6months old , it can also be VERY dangerous before she has had a season, you must wait until she has had season before speying as the blood vessels around and in the womb swell a few weeks before her season and if she was due in season just before she is speyed this can make the opperation dangerous and difficult ANY vet should tell you this.

I disagree, It can also be unfair to a bitch to put her thru a season. I don't think that matures a bitch. Personality varies from dog to dog. I have two bitches who are sisters, both have had two litters of puppies, one bitch is laid back and the other is always raring to go. I don't believe altering them would have changed their personalities. If you have no intention of breeding your bitch you should alter it before her season. Do you really want to keep her under lock and key so that she doesn't get accidently bred? Oh, the possibilities of unwanted puppies!
How about ovarian cancer? Phantom pregnancies and pyrometria?
Do her a favor and spay her now, so what if she gets a curly coat!

You misunderstand, it is not the season that mature the bitch, it is the hormones that are produced by the organs that are needed for the correct growth. IMO not just to six months but until the age that the breed takes to become mature. Say 8ths for a Yorkie and something like 3 years for a Newfoundland. JH

Molly my BC was re homed by my husband and me just over a year ago now. Her previous owners (let me at them ....) never got her spayed. They then dumped her abused her then dumped her on to Battersea. That's were I came in to her life.

She was in shock while in the home and never had a season as Battersea did not know when her last season was or much about her they never spayed her. Since I have had her she has only had two seasons. she is about four years old.

I know I have asked this over and over but I am in two minds to get her spayed as she hates the vets, and has been through so much do I really want to put her through more?

Is it dangours for me to not have her opertation or dangours not too?

I am very carefull with her when she is in season leads only and we take her to diffrence places as not to attract boyfriends!

I am lucky as I live on a dis-used farm and my cats and Molly are the only animals here so far touch wood no other man woof has been here looking for Molly!?

Julieann and Molly

I believe I posted some really good reasons to have the operation.

Bumblebees I agree with you regarding so what about the curly coat but as Emma has pointed out it would be physically dangerous to do the op at this point when the bitch could be coming into season at any time now.

I personally don't know the breed or at what age they generally begin to cycle. I have shelties that start about 9 months or later, so am safe in having it done by 6 months. I would suggest going back to the dog's breeder for input as to the starting time, and I would think the vet could help also.

I, personally, cannot see how anyone can tell you that 6 months is the RIGHT age for a puppy to be speyed. As with people, all dogs are different. I have two Cocker litter sisters almost one year old now. One had her first season at 8 months and the other is still waiting to even show a sign that she is coming into season. The first sister has obviously matured a lot faster than the other. I do not intend to have either of them speyed. Just my two-penniesworth.....

Is it different for dogs? My vet told me when we took Barney for his injections to bring him back at 6 months to have his bits removed. I cant even see that he has any bits at the moment but I am not sure where they are supposed to be anyway never having had a dog or son before. Is this really necessary or is this a silly question!! He does apparently have a little hernia the vet told me (which doesnt bother him at all and doesnt seem to be there any more??). She said to have this done at the same time but I am wondering whether just to take him back in a week when he will be 6 months and see if it is still there as she is the expert not me. I would be grateful for some help on this. Ta Gina
PS No jokes about my having a husband please !!!

Gina dont worry about his bits you will see them when they arrive,your post did give me a smile . :) sorry but in the nicest possible way after a really sh**ty day that Ive had.thankyou.

Glad to be of some help LOL. It is Friday Mattie ..the weekend so cheer up..although you may have more to do than me LOL. I'm just out to a Mauritian seafood restaurant we have seen to see what it tastes like!!! You are very helpful to people on this board so I hope you or someone can tell me whether to leave him be or have him "done". Many thanks Gina.

Hi Again personally I would NOT nueter a male dog so young , if at all but I used to show my William so couldnt at the time but my personal preference is to keep the bits. They seem to mature better.But some dogs have a high tostesterone level and it can be a real pain,we had one recently in rescue which would bonk everything in sight,people,cushions,bushes,arms of chairs he wasnt fussy anyway as I say it depends on the dogs behaviour.Hope you get some more advice.
Have a nice evening.

Thanks Mattie. Just got in from a great meal..will go again. Unless someone tells me to the contrary I think he is too young to be mucked about with so I will justmake sure he has not got a hernia and leave him alone I think. The only things he tries to hump is me (sometimes) cos he STILL thinks he has the edge on me which I am slowly rectifying and my Harrods teddy (name dropping??) on my bed (which I move as soon asap when I put him on the bed of a night (he only stays there for a minute or so cos he is scared of heights LOL).
PS It is amazing how long it takes one to type when one is slightly inebriated! but thanks for the help... the brain is still there... Ithink Gina

Altering him by 6 months could save you from having humping mania in the future, because once they start they usually won't stop even if you do fix them.Just a thought. Another one is that the above mentioned testostrone can make an unneutered dog agressive, so if kids are in your future, it's a good thing to look further into.

One more thing, is your baby will never have to worry about getting testicular cancer, something to bring up at your next vet appointment.

Got another good reason, he won't have the urge to wander looking for a mate. Could be a real bother if a neighbor has a bitch in season.......

IMO if owners cannot prevent their dogs straying, getting pregnant or fathering puppies accidentally and are inacapable of training a "full" dog so that is is a happy family member shouldn't own a dog at all. Many male puppies try "humping" behaviour, and in my experience it is a "dominance" try-on to begin with, rather than true over sexed behaviour. If it allowed to continue then it can become a nuisance . It can be stopped in most cases by the dog NOT being the pack leader in the family - i.e. he knows he's not the boss in the family. I completely agree that a 6 month bitch puppy should NEVER be spayed, she could be coming in sason any time and could bleed to death on the operating table - and all to line the vets pocket and make life easy! It may not make life easy at all, 10% of spayed bitches have some degree of urine incontinence, which is far more inconvenient and smelly than a season twice a year. Does your breed have a high incidence of ovarian cancer? Some breeds are more prone to cancer than others. Pyometra, although life threatening, (as is untreated appendicitis in humans) has definate symptoms. As long as you know what the symptoms are and get the bitch to the vet as soon as they are noticed, it is almost certain she will be spayed on the spot and recover. Doctors dont remove appendix routinely do they - though untreated appendicitis is just as deadly as pyometra. I have kept many unspayed bitches over the years and have only ever had one case of pyo - in an 11 month bitch. She went off her food, was obviously poorly and depressed and was drinking much more than usual. She went to the vet within a couple of hours of being unwell, was spayed and recovered fine. Pyometra is quite rare. Vets frighten you with all these deadly complications of not having your bitch spayed to get the money!! 50% of all the puppies that come to their surgery at 8 weeks for vaccination are bitch pupies. Almost all vets will recommend spaying them at some point - this has only started happening in the last 15 years or so. Spaying is a very expensive opertation, and they make a good profit, while making the owners feel its the best thing for their bitch. the only time I would have a bitch routinely spayed would be if she suffered from regular phantom pregnancies, as there is more risk of Pyo in those bitches, or obviously has some problem like coming in season too often - 3 or 4 times a year.

I'm afraid I agree with Westie lover. In my book, as I've said many times before, spaying/neutering for the convenience of the owner is often carried out to absolve them of the responsibilities of dog-owning, and I think may point to a lazy owner who can't come to terms with dog physiology. T

This does not , obviously, include those who have to have the operation for genuine medical reasons.

I'm afraid it makes me wild when people get up in arms about the docking issue, but will happily go for an operation which causes a lot more discomfort and stress to an adult dog.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I am with you all the way on this Jo. If it is doing any good how come the problems are rising instead of falling. funny thing is. it is the people that can be most trusted to look after a dog castrated or not that get it done ,
those who crossbreed usually do it deliberately. not accidently . My collie was spayed to save her life , and there is nothing convenient I can tell you ,the grooming i have to do , she has three coats since she was spayed . this week alone I got 4 large black sacks from her plus a broken back if her coat was normal it would be easier for me keep her in once a year while in season.It is not only the coats, that cause trouble . some dogs are so traumatised , wobbly on the legs, keep looking behind them for the missing bits . dont mature . some still want to hump . as westie lover said pyo is not as common as vets make out vets make nice money from it . untill the law changes re dog abuse you can spay or castrate untill you are blue in the face and change nothing. however not everyone agrees , so there is no point to the discussion as people will do what they want anyway mari

I agree Westie lover. You will not be surprised to hear that most vets now bring up spaying and Castration both at the time of the puppy jabs. I don't know about where you live, but round here it is around £100 to castrate a dog, and over £150 to spay a bitch.

I have two entire bitches and two spayed ones. My oldest bitch was spayed at 5 as she had had a mammary tumour (pea size) and I hoped that spaying might have some benefir re their re occurence, but a study done a couple of years ago showed that there was no benefit of spauying once they had already had one.

Her daughter was spayed at the time of her recent C section in August at just over 6 1/2 as I had planned to spay her after the litter, so the vet was happy to do it as all had gone well with the section with a small litter.

I will probably have the other two spayed once their breeding duties have ended, but fortunately they are not a breed who has a major change in coat volume or texture. Though they do not seem to moult as heavily as entire bitches, having a more male patern to the moults, and the coat does soften just a little.

When I called the vets to book Holly in for a new puppy check and her vacinnations I was quoted £156.43p to have her spayed. When I told the receptionist we weren't going to have her spayed and we weren't going to breed from her I was immediately told all about the problems of pyo etc. The receptionist was trying to scare me into having it done.

I explained my reasons for not wanting her to be spayed and her attitude instantly changed. I'm well aware of the risks of not having her done and the possible problems of having her spayed and I was able to explain it to the receptionist. When we saw the vet he asked me again whether she'd be spayed and I again explained the reasons why not. He's more than happy with our decision as he knows that we've made an informed decision and that we have Hollys best interests at heart. He also said that should we change our minds the practice policy is to wait until a bitch has had their second season before they're spayed.

Fiona

Hi Bumblebeeacres

I appreciate you are strongly in favour of neutering pet dogs (as you are perfectly entitled to be) but I do think your arguments are bordering on "scare tactics". To suggest that a young pup that indulges in a little "humping" could become aggressive in future is just such a scare tactic IMO, sorry. As Westie Lover says, it is normal for male puppies to try out their "humping" skills & it is perfectly possible to train a puppy out of this behaviour. I have had entire male dogs all my life & not one has become aggressive & not one has developed testicular cancer - is this really as common as you imply? Testicular cancer is not uncommon in man but I don't see anyone urging parents to get their little boys castrated "just in case" :-)

I'm not anti-neutering for genuine reasons but I just don't like this current trend to neuter very young animals on a "just in case" basis - just my opinion :-)

Jane

Oh boy, I never thought it would be this hard to make a decision!!

I've always had dogs so have never really thought about it before, just kept them intact and got on with it. But I'm new to bitches, so now I have to. She is going to be a working dog, as have my previous ones, and it's more for convenience than anything else, as sod's law says she'll come into season just as the shooting season starts, and as she's my only dog now, I'll have to bow out for a month. Can you imagine the trouble with a bitch in season at a shoot? She's kennelled anyway, so getting out/others getting in, and the mess isn't a problem, but I feel a bit selfish getting her done basically for convenience. I think I'll sit on it for now and see what happens, and hope it doesn't interupt her initial training too much.

Thank you to al that contributed.

When I took my two Cockers for their puppy injections the vet told me that one of them had a small naval hernia. He also said that as the pup grew it could disappear. They are now one year old and no sign of the hernia!

Well back home (Canada) it was considered the responsible thing for you, your dog and the community that if you were not planning to breed you would spey. I have listened to both sets of opinions over the last several years and while I admit I may not be so quick to spey now, I can't see how you can call someone irresponsible who chooses to have a bitch speyed in order to prevent any mating. We've all read the stories about even the most careful professional breeders who have an accidental mating, so how can the 'lay-owner' be expected to be more perfect than a professional. I believe that we should discuss this in a NON-judgemental way and I believe some of the comments have come across as very judgemental.

The research in the US at the moment is beginning to show that earlier speying and neutering is NOT dangerous for the pup - in fact in many cases is better. I do not wish to argue this, am just stating the facts as they are appearing - and this has been being studied for the past 10-15 years, so it's not really new.

There are advances all the time - and just because 'this is the way we've always done it before' doesn't mean that we haven't learned that there is a new and better way. I understand that the consensus and focus over here is very different and I believe that BOTH sides of the discussion have GREAT MERIT.

Vets discussing speying early are NOT necessarily trying to get money out of you. Did it occur to people that they might actually be considering the best interests of the dogs??

Sorry - I've been really sick for a few days and have come back to read a few posts that sound really intolerant.

Wendy

someone on champdogs recommended this book to me i found it excellent tells you all about bitches , and their problems big or small it,s called ["the book of the bitch"] I ordered mine off the web from "Amazon" it should tell you all you need to know.......carolwales

I don't believe I was using "scare" tactics in my earlier posts, just stating the facts. It's true that you eliminate possible cancers by fixing your dog, it might not be common, but what if it was your pet that it happened to? Wendy made some very valid and educated comments.
As far as agression, it is totally true that it can eliminate possible increased aggression. I learned this first hand! My experiences are related in a thread awhile back, you can look into(my daughter was bitten...) I also relate that proper training and socialization and also genetics play a very huge part of having an agressive dog, but still an altered dog has less hormonal fluctuations which can cause it.
I've seen that earlier alteration can prevent the dog from having difficult recovery of the operation later in life. I don't believe vets are out there trying to make a profit off uninformed pet owners. Need I remind breeders how much money and time is invested in raising a litter of puppies? Imagine how much harder it is to recover from an accidental litter......who is going to take mixed puppies in? Will they end up in the system? Who is responsible for them? Look on this site, there is a thread running now regarding this very topic of unplanned pregnancy. It is true, these accidents happen much too frequently to ignore. Pet owners need to take responsiblity... there are too too many unwanted dogs in the world. It is time to get real people! In the US most reputable breeders require a spay/neuter contract be signed by new owners. They sometimes offer incentives, like some money back with proof that the operation has been done. This is responsible behavior and something to be seriously considered! I don't mean to offend anyone, really I don't. I am trying to understand the other side to this issue, but I keep coming up with the same answer, prevention is best.

Read all of this with interest. I am not a vet ... but have worked with many vets over the years, most of whom now agree there is little risk of speying a bitch at 6 months old. This has changed considerably in the 8 years I have been doing rescue ... meaning that 8 years ago vets did recommend a season. I am afraid I take a rather simplistic view on this ... comes from years of viewing inadequate owners ... if as an owner you are responsible, experienced and capable of dealing with a season then it may be ok to wait. The majority of people I deal with are not so we spey to prevent unwanted litters of puppies ...usually I agree with mongrels, but they are dogs too. We also spey all of our rescue dogs and bitches ...if you worked with what we have to you would agree. In the years I have witnessed the speying of many many young bitches, and the castration of many young dogs .... and I have never witnessed or had an owner complain of any subsequent problems. To say it stops the maturing process, well I feel this incorrect from my experience, I have seen some speyed 6 months old who act like old ladies, I have rescued some non speyed adults who act like puppies. That is a characteristic I suspect of the dog or bitch.

On dogs, I know people get much more sensitive about removing visible bits ... but it is a fact that castration will prevent future cancers. We do not ask our dogs to live in a natural world where they can go off and satisfy their needs ... and a dog which scents a bitch in season can become frustrated. I don't think it is any crueler t castrate than to leave a frustrated dog in my house! All my dogs have been castrated and have never wandered, however neither has it ruined their apparent maleness ... if I bring a bitch to the house they will flirt, show off and try their luck (typical men) ... I have even had a breeder tell me she keeps one neutered dog to satisfy the bitches she doesn't want to breed from that year!! (not sure what I thought of that ... lucky dog .. or lucky bitches?).

Anyway after rambling .. I guess my contribution is to agree with the pro speying camp ... but to add to that years of experience in viewing dogs where this has happened ... no problems. I am sure many of you will now disagree and offer alternative cases where problems have occurred ... but in my experience we have in the last 8 years speyed over 2,000 bitches and neutered over 900 dogs.

Hi Bumblebeeacres

As it was me who said I thought you were using "scare tactics" in your advice to Gina, I'd just like to explain what I meant :-) Your post came across to me as saying to Gina, if you don't neuter your dog now then you could have problems with aggression later, especially if you have children. If you didn't mean that, then sorry, that's just how I read it. I am well aware that castration of males can help with some (but not ALL) problems involving aggressive behaviour but it's also true that vast numbers of entire males live happy lives without any aggressive tendencies :-)
Incidentally, there is some research which shows an increase in aggressive behaviour in some neutered females & also research in the UK into aggressive behaviour in Cocker Spaniels (commonly called Rage Syndrome) found that there was a higher proportion of neutered males displaying aggressive behaviour than entire males (though this could be explained by the fact that many owners had had their dogs neutered in an attempt to cure the problem behaviour) This is why I think that the whole neutering debate is interesting - there are certainly valid arguments for neutering but it's not a completely black & white picture & owners should listen to all views & make up their own minds.

Jane

Hi Jane,
No reason for you to apologize, cause I did mean it! To me any way to insure that the dog has the LEAST CHANCE to become agressive is important to me, and I suggested it incase it is important to her.
Don't worry I don't get offend when people voice their oppinion for or against mine. I'm a firm believer in respecting others beliefs.

When we first took our bitch to the vet for check up and vaccinations after looking her over the vet said "you've got a cracking bitch are you going to breed from her then" and here's me expecting him to throw speying down my throat. We said we weren't going to breed and he told us not to rule it out yet, however we knew our own minds and in the end had to get her speyed for medical reasons anyway, thankfully she'd had one season but I'd rather she'd had a couple more at least.

Our entire adolescent male is really trying us out at the moment and if I didn't know better I'd probably believe a vet if they told me castration would help. I have no intentions of getting him castrated unless it was for medical reasons also. I'm sure all he needs is firm handling (she's says hopefully)