Why, oh why, oh why, oh why DOES HE DO IT?? :(
Halti on = MAJOR flip out and somersaults from my divine little doggy...... he is going to do himself an injury, i'm going to give him another go with it today, but any suggestions on how to subdue the little freak! ;)

Just keep at it ...he WILL stop eventually . Stand there and keep calm ..as soon as the dog stands still , lots of praise ...

He will get used to it ;)

Yes, just stick with it. All dogs hate the halti at first, but they get used to it. Its worth sticking with.
Try putting it on, then giving a treat (might not take it if really stressed though).
Good luck!

Try putting it on loosely before his meal time - when he sits nicely, he gets his dinner....

Bradleys got a halti we introduced it by puttin it on when he ate his dinner and also for play. Now he only accasionally shadow box's his own chin. Now as soon as he has his halti put on he calms and is ready for training walking etc. It took Bradley about 3 weeks to accept it.

treat,treat,treat,treat...lol.
That eventually worked for me, think it took about 2 weeks in all..She still has a bit of a go now but the circus act has long gone ;)

Sarah

As above, stick at it and hell learn it means walks. Took Morse ages to stop trying to claw it off, now he lines up for the GL and going out. :)

2 months on and my springer still does his circus act every time we go out.

My Penny was exactly the same. The way I got her to calm down was to use the same principal as flooding. When the halti is put on him just let him buck around and rub his head on the ground. Then when he calms down call him over to you and give him a treat or two. With the flooding process after 10 or 15 minutes of playing bronco dog (Penny played that game) he'll get tired of reacting this way and then when you give the treat and praise, you will be praising him for calming down.
Good Luck

Copper was the same with his muzzle - had to chase him round the livingroom to put it on and then he whined and whined and tried to paw it off, scrape it off on the floor etc. I just kept the front door shut and was very calm until he calmed down and once he accepted that the front door was not going to be opened until he stopped his "antics" he's been fine. He doesn't like it but he will wear it if it means a walk. In fairness to him - it has worked to some extent and I now just muzzle him on the public streets and take it off when we get to the real walk. It takes a long time but they do come round.

CG

ha ha!! he'll get used to it eventually.all my labs have after the intitial back flips off the front door step, and amber chewing through three haltis in a month by getting the chin strap in her mouth.persevere cos they are brill when they do work:)

I have heard many times they are inhumane and dangerous, I have seen the stuff below on many sites, hope it helps, it can be reproduced for non proffit.

I do not think dogs pulling on a lead is safe, its not safe at all. Dogs show little or no sense of choking on a normal collar (as seen in dogs gagging as the pull) it seems to be something that they ignore.
But with collars they do not have a sense of their head and consequently their senses being forced into position they retain the sense of what humans would call head freedom, nevertheless a lot of damage is caused by dogs pulling on collars and leads.
Jerks and pulls etc from Halties probably vibrate on fewer parts of the skeleton and also Halties do not thud on the trachea either.
The old original Haltie is not seen much anymore, in its place a new alternative has become popular, but was the Haltie safe? And is the latest version any better.
The Halties contempary equivilent, Canac, rides up under the eye the same as the older Halties did and rubes the fragile skin around that area, anyone doubting this just take notice next time you see them, not just one but take notice of several.
When they are first put on most dogs (not all) try to get away from them.
Once the Haltie is eventually forced on, the head is forced into a position as the dog tries to escape, even at this early point such attempts by the dog are manifestations of sheer panic.
If the owner then continues to hold still whilst the dog twists and attempts to escape from the trap the dog is experiencing the owner not as its trusted friend but as someone who, out of the blue, has 'turned on it' for NO reason the dog is capable of understanding, that in itself can terrify a dog on top of the fact the relationship is not a strong bond to need one.
Once the owner has forced the Halter type on the dog starts jumping around in panic, a dog does not have the intelligence to stop and think "This is for my own good" all the dog knows is that its once trusted friend has turned on it, as no command has been broken it cannot associate it with unwanted behaviour of its own.
Eventually the dog is forced into submission.
A dog challenging its owner for some reason would naturally submit at a point at which the dog felt its pack leader (owner) had overcome it, it would not resent that nor would it make the dog distant in the relationship but the act of putting a Haltie on a dog for the first time is not the act of a pack leader asserting rank over a rebellious dog, it is an out of the blue attack to the dogs perception of its, untill then, secure position.
Occasional challenges to rank are normal in dogs and in the dogs restricted way of understanding its life and its world 'no undue behaviour' would have been carried out by its owner whom it had challenged and whom had corrected it.
A halter type placed on the dog, for no reason the dog can work out, does not fall under the category 'pack rank behaviour' and it most certainly does not fall under the category 'trusted friend ' behaviour. Dogs accept corrections if they have knowingly deliberatly misbehaved but a Halter type is a punishemnt without reason, to the dogs mind.
Putting a total head restraint on for the first time, often just as the dog is excited and pleased when it realizes it's going walkies with its trusted owner, causes an instant breakdown of trust (as we call it) the dog has no idea whatsoever why all this is happening and why such a punishment is coming from its friend and companion, there are no broken commands to associate the punishment with.
This sort of head entrapment causes claustrophobia in some humans and a state of anxiety in a dog, the reason the anxiety occurs is because the dog has no means of interpreting this particular human behaviour.
The head of a dog is, emotionally,the most important part of its experience of itself, its most important senses are in its head, dogs are highly dependant on smell and use it as a means of recognition and identification, most vets who care about their patients let them smell the piece of cotton wool, the scissors, the rubber glove etc etc thereby putting the dog at ease before tampering with them with the cotton wool, suddenly the freedom of movement and the availability of scenting is gone.
The dog normally looks to identify its environment as well as scent identification, with a Halter type restraint, that's gone its muzzle is jerked back to suit the owners minuet by minuet needs, not the dogs, it is restricted to a view decided by the owner. The only form of defence a dog has is in its head, suddenly all the defence capability is forced away from the dog. This process may take several minuets for some owners and dogs on the first attempt, but a few seconds of this unexpected attack by its trusted friend can cause a lifetimes damage.
The most traumatic part of all with these barbaric instruments is that the head is the part of the dogs body where natural affection and retribution are centred.
In the litter the beginning of its natural training starts, if the pup carries out a behaviour detrimental to the group as a whole the bitch INSTANTLY bears down on its HEAD area with vocalisations and physical threats (teeth showing etc) the fear is beneficial to start behaviour correction and the head area is the receptor.
As soon as the pup responds (often by squeals) she licks it profusely, comforting it and giving the reassurance it needs. In other words she delivers a negative stimulus to produce positive behaviour, this is how dogs learn, as well as much of human behaviour, one or two repetitions of the negative stimulus, dependant on the individual pup, or punishment and the pup learns which behaviours are or are not beneficial to itself, all this reward punishment system is centred around the head.
The fear the dog experiences is a fear which is beneficial to the dog and to the well being and harmony of the pack, in the same way fear is beneficial to humans, which is why it exists, no species would survive without the fight or flight drive.
In the case of the introduction of a Haltie there is no way the dog can have natural understanding, in its own canine way, of what is happening. It is natural to pull away from something but in the case of the Haltie the entire head is trapped as well as its body, only panic threshing can occur.
Always when we initiate affection to the dog it's centred around the head, when dogs living together greet each other the acceptance is often head and mouth contact between them, when a dog wants to submit it lowers its head, when a dog wants to show dominance it holds its head erect and much more. All this and MUCH more is suddenly forced away from the dog by the person who, until this traumatic event, it trusted more than anything in the world, all that, gone and the dog bows its head in submission.
I accept that the use of Halter type head constraints are often done without malice, without bad intention and most of the time purely through lack of knowledge (innocence) but they are nothing less than a training substitute, a trained dog does not pull on a lead, it willingly obeys the owner who it sees as its natural and loved pack leader.
The physical dangers are more obvious, if anyone walks for only a few moments with their heads turned to the side, the neck will soon start aching, try it day in day out for a week and see how your neck feels then, add to that the occasional UNEXPECTED jerk from the muzzle area which again forces the entire head to jolt sideways, that in itself will make the dog tense its muscles, a few jerks and the dog will keep its muscles tense for longer and longer periods. In humans this same muscle tension in the neck causes headaches, what does it do to the dog? How much damage to the vertebrate happens over a prolonged period?
Above all Halter types have no training purpose whatsoever, they are a substitute for training and have no other effect than force the dog to walk at heel as a lazy option to training.
A case has been put forward to DEFRA against them it now remains to be seen if they get banned.
I once ran training courses and banned Halties as soon as I saw them, I had also never allowed chokers .
Objections have been made to DEFRA about them and currently the current legal status is under review. (DEFRA is a goverment body and gives the goverment advice on these matters)
Haltie type head cages have been used on humans centuries ago, allways as a punishment or torture device, lets face it what would happen if a child were put in such a device to stop it toddleing in front?
If anyone would like a second opinion, this time by a behaviourist, then try Suzanne Clothiers article at,
www.flyingdogpress.com
'It is only when we view the whole can we can see the flaws '

DC © 2002. Reproduction for non commercial reasons permited.

Oh for god sake behave.  I gave up reading when it went into one about torture. I do not torture my dog. 

slightly extreme views i think!!!!lol at emma!!

"You have heard". presumably, then, you have never used one??
Dogs don't like any sort of collar or lead but they learn to accept them.
Don't you think you're just a bit OTT about this?

What a load of old tosh! :rolleyes:

For a start,the Halti (or any headcollar) should never be forced on - the instructions used to make that quite clear. You put them on (no force!) for a few minutes at a time, feeding the dog titbits (or its dinner) several times a day for a few days before you even attach a lead. Then you repeat the process. This way your dog realises that Halti on = nice things. So no problem.

And of course anyone who has ever read the instructions for use will know that you never pull on a Halti! The dog is in control of that. If the dog pulls forward, you stop! You don't pull back!

So really, go and do some more research before spouting such nonsense about torture!

From whom and where have you "heard" that headcollars are inhumane and dangerous?  It IS true that they CAN, as anything including leads, collars, food, voice and hand, be USED in an inhumane and dangerous way.

No more force is required to properly fit and use a headcollar than a collar, lead etc.

The head is not "forced" into  any position (unless by the handlers choice).

Using the old cliched, outdated, outmoded "pack leader" in this instance is irrelevant.

It is true that mechanical means of dog management such as haltis, leads, collars, harnesses, etc etc ARE no substitute for dog training however they ARE extremely useful in many cases for EXTRA security such as those people who have dogs who weigh more than them, to avoid personal injury from a dog that may lunge after an extremely rude dog off lead invades its space, to remain in control when walking dogs in Icy, slippery, dangerous conditions etc etc.

The most dangerous part of the whole equation is neither the headcollar nor the dog............ but the owner!

'Barbaric instruments' Ille give you barbaric instruments. 

Oh jesus i've heard it all now lol. ;)
I'd rather use a halti thanks, than get dragged under a bus, killing myself(not bothered) and my dog(very bothered).

Sarah

Oh dear slazcoat, :(   perhaps you should consider cancelling your internet connection and buy your dog some decent food. (with reference to previous post in 'general')

tcarlaidh - exactly what I was thinking!

I thought this person was a WUM but a lot of effort has gone in to this latest post, so much that I gave up reading it :D

don't know how to do smileys but i'm laughing anyway

Flippin' eck!!!   Haltis and Gentle Leaders mean that I have CONTROL over the dogs when I need it - ie when they all want to jump out of the boot of the car together!

I have found something that IMO is even better than the Gentle Leader - and that is the GENTLE CONTROLLER - and as it comes as collar/lead (think about a slip lead) it is far easier to put on - and as it doesn't actually "pull" on the corner of the mouth, it doesn't seem to be quite so aggravating to them - and it doesn't slip up to the eyes, either!

My mad Aussies will actually SIT & wait for me to put them on!!

Margot

As ity happens I have rehomed my dog, Iguess I knew that i would have to but didn't want to accept it.
But the fact remains that even posters here are finding the dog has to be forced into a halter, just read the first posts and it stands out a mile, which is what that dog psychologist says, it affects the relationship.

Ah no,  my relationship with my dog is second to none.  Oh and Ive cursed him with the dreaded halti.  Poor Mr B he's getting another one for xmas with a matching lead.  My partner will also be booking him into a dog pyschologist to help him deal with the mistreatment he gets eg fresh meat, fish, veg, treats oh and 3 walks a day with a halti, a bed thats almost as big as my daughters room  infact call the RSPCA.
Emma
P.S Sorry feeling quite ill and stroppy an fed up with people saying Ive ruined my dog because of a halti

It's interesting that the originator of the gentle leader has been able to totally refute all allegations that the headcollars cause harm. To date there has been no acceptable proof that the GL (and presumably all headcollars) cause harm.

I have to say though, owners are wrong to just shove it on their pet and leave it on for ages whilst the dog stresses out :( Yes they will "learn" eventually (or may not - some dogs will never like the headcollar if it is introduced to them in this way)

Why on earth don't people follow instructions. We are all in such a hurry - for goodness' sake, have patience and introduce the things properly so that the dog isnt over stressed.

Lindsay

Yup ...I am going to listen to someone who feeds their dog burgers :rolleyes:

slazcoat go and boil your bottom

Just going to put my two cents in......I use a Halti, God Bless the Little Piece of Nylon!!! It's one of the best ways to control a "puller", as my Lab is. I have never been able to train my lab to not pull when on lead,as I have trained all my other dogs, and after many consultations with my vet (after she fainted a few times at my feet after trying to chase various things) and with a behaviourist, they both recommended the Halti after seeing my girl in action. There was simply no other alternative.
Using a Halti was a last resort for me. Now both my dog and I can take our "walkies" with much less stress on both of our parts. She knows that she will not be allowed to pull, and I know that I will not have to do mouth to mouth on an unconscious dog. The Halti is NOT a cruel instrument of torture. It is a behaviour modification device that allows both dog and owner the freedom to enjoy each others company on a walk, without the fear of being pulled to the ground, losing hold of the lead, or a fainting dog.

So that's my 2 cents.....

Here is my tuppence worth,God bless Roger Mugford for bringing out his halti and my dogs are all trained to sit and wait while their halti is put on,not forced into by a mad, bad,evil owner!!!:) Sandra.

I think the point susan clothier makes is thaT how many people use them proprerly, I have noticed more this week dogs with the things a fraction under their eys and with heads pulling sideways, people dont walk down the street checking if the dog has its head straight and the thing about rubbing on the eyelid sems almost normal I dont think many people use them properly at all and look at the psychological damage that is done

Its Friday and you are not wheeling me in with your claptrap.

Read the bottom of the 'article' about headcollars. copyright DC?? Ring any bells with anyone??

Now, come on people, let's stop being cruel and start electrocuting our dogs into walking to heel. ;)

Jo

Of course! Would that be the person who has been banned from this Forum under umpteen names for being a wind-up? It should have been obvious!

Ah, do you know. as soon as i saw this long post i thought "i know who that is", but the other slazcoat posts seem different to his usual style :rolleyes: so i decided no, maybe not..... so come on slazcoat, if you are he, you have been spotted and you are BANNED :D

Lindsay

LOL! I only just saw this thread! It's Denis again! Guess he's running out of boards to post on these days. Let's face it he's been banned from almost all.

Bye Denis!

John

Hehehe, 'scuse me but according to the flyingdogpress.com, (wasn't that the link in the first rant??) Heres the reproduction rules for the article quoted so extensively:

ARTICLE REPRINT POLICY  
These articles are provided free to all readers as an educational service.
They may NOT be reproduced on any website, discussion board or group for any reason.

Stick dat in yuh pipe an smoke it!!

The halti is great great great fokeeping you shoulders and arms where the should be in your body and not dragged on the floor on the end of the lead which is attatched to a very strong pup. Yes train them whilst on it but god does it hurt if your dog is on a lead and the see a cat aarrrggghhhhh!!!!.
The only thing i don't like is people's reaction to my dog with a halti on, the either cross the other side of the road, leave the field or just painic if they have to go past me. Yes she is a German Shepherd and yes they have had bad press in the past but god all she will do is go mad with excitment to get to the person she knows to give them a great big sloppy kiss lol
But i will not give it up until she learns not to drag me on a walk lol

When will I ever learn not to rise to the bait,reeled in like a real yin!!!!Sandra:D

I think it's someone posting an article by him, rather than actually him.

I believe he feels that writing articles to submit to websites without getting paid is a way of gaining credibility. I'm saying nothin'!

I didn't read the whole thing, just as far as getting positive and negative reinforcement completely wrong and kind of twigged who it was! General rule of thumb, if you see anything about 'reward behaviour' stop reading, it means nothing!!!

To co28uk, yes I know what you mean about people's reactions to halti's! I've had people ask me why my dog is wearing a muzzle when he used to wear one. I don't really understand why they think that, seeing as a bit on nylon around the face would offer no protection at all from a biting dog, and if it was a muzzle, why avoid it? It obviously can't hurt you and is probably much safer than a dog without one! People are odd aren't they??

Jo

Don't you believe it Jo! The man with many names has posted this or the like of this on here so many times! I guess he's been thrown off another board so has nowhere to go. (Apart from one other board of course ;) )

John

It's probably my basic faith in human nature letting me down again!!

Have just had a lesson at Roger Mugford's and have come away with his new halti training harness. The attachment is on the dog's chest rather than under his chin as with the halti headcollar and there is nothing around the face/head.  Although my lab is pretty good at walking to heel a lot of the time if he sees other dogs or something else that takes his fancy he will pull.  A couple of times recently he has almost pulled me over such is the speed and strength with which his attention has been diverted to something much more interesting than walking to heel!  I have been totally amazed by the fingertip control it gives.   It means that I can get his attention back on me much more quickly than having to get him back bodily as well and I won't end up with one arm longer than the other! Although I appreciate that they is no substitute for training I have been converted to their benefits as an aid to training if necessary. 

where can i get hold of these new halti harness things ?

Hi Lilylaru
I got mine from Roger Mugford's Animal Behaviour Centre which is in Chertsey, Surrey.  I believe they have an online shop on their website www.companyofanimals.co.uk but for some reason can't access the site to check. I know they only had the first ones delivered a couple of weeks ago so they may not have been added yet anyway.   Their tel no is 01932 566696 and they will be able to help you.
best wishes, Jenny

thanks, i'll try the number
i had looked for the website but i couldn't get it either, wouldn't load - v annoying !

sarah
:D

On the way back from a morning walk.  I took the lead off the halti and put it on the collar.  Bradley still walked really nicely.  So I took the halti off and he walked nicely with only a couple of 'hey Mr B wait for me' which he responded to.  Ille try again later but I will always have the halti in my pocket just incase.

Good for you Emma and Bradley! Confusion to doubters that haltis work! Managed to get Manic Morse and I off to our long walk today using his collar only. Unlike Bradley the gentleman, Morse stubbornly refuses to accept Pulling does not Pay and tries to shove that pointy nose forward, despite being met with Counter Pulling strategies every time. He is a 10000% better though and does walk beside me nicely when the nonsense is over. :)

Halti's do really work i myself went out with my GSD today on a slipped lead had to pull her back a few times and tell her to heal but she did heal.

Cordelia