When I bought my cage home the kids had great fun getting into it, though my 14 year old daughter would never admit to such a thing now. I have often seen tofddlers at shows in the cage their dog was in!

If used correctly then a dog is not going to come to any harm in a cage (but never longer than an hour). I only use a cage if I am busy cooking etc and I don't want a young dog finding itself something to amuse it.
I don't kennel my dogs and have rotti's as well and so use the cage if the older dogs are having a playtime, as I'd hate a young lab pup to get in the way of rotti's playtime. A hard bump could do untold damage to a lab's joints. Puppies have separate playtimes in this house and everyone is safe. Would be interested to hear how others who don't kennel manage with older dogs and very young pups.
All dogs here over 12 months DO NOT have cages except one who refuses to give up her cage, she's 19 months and very stable. Her new cage is also so big it has to be erected by 2 people. I feel any dog should have space to be able to stand and move around in a cage.

I have benched a labrador at a show with a benching cage due to the fact she snapped her collar and benching chain at a lab club championship show and escaped. And before everyone jumps on me I was close by but these things happen very quickly, I will always be grateful to the very nice chap (another lab breeder) who caught her!!! She is not shown anymore because I did hate the benching cage.

remember play pens!!! what are they if nothing but a cage!!

And cots - beds with bars to prevent the baby getting out at night.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

And lets not forget Prison Cells :-)

Oh yes play pens I dont mind play pens croft make a really good one.We have a really big one for puppies in the garden when they are small,but I dont agree that they are a cage though sorry, think we should agree to differ here.

Mattie

Yes I did read your post - it was the reference to our putting children in cages next that prompted the play-pens response. I too have used puppy pens at great success. :-)

Dd you read my first post? I said Puppies yes to keep them safe !!!and ALL other well aired views.(regarding puppys safety)

Me too. I own one crate which I bought to have somewhere to put the dogs at shows (never anywhere to tie theminthese leisure centres) IF I am getting a lift with someone who has the space to take it (rare). I think I took it twice, was handy to go to the loo, and to leave the 2nd dog while in the ring with first.

It now sits in the corner of the kichen next to dog basket and is used as a bed, never has the door closed, but as they are happy to go into it, it will come into its own on my trip to the World show with two of them in July!

I have a friend who has to crate all her male collies, and play musical crates with them in the day! They hate each other and her GSDs hate them! All of these are rescue dogs, so have never grown into a reliable pack. she has no trouble with the male GSD, neutered male Terv, two GSD bitches, Border collie bitch and Elkhound bitch!

I feell cratuing is often used in order to manage more dogs than one can really cope with. I know my friend sometimes wishes she didn't have the five male Border collies, but as 3 are veterans (one very old) she hopes that natural wastage will take care of the problem before it nackers her!!

I have always put my dogs to bed from puppyhood in the kitchen when I go out with plenty of bones and toys to chew (when small I take the precaution of using bitter spray round all likely chew places). They sleep in a double kennel at night two per kennel, and don't seem to chew that, though I always use the bitter stuff on the internal framing when they are small!

I to would not cage/crate my dogs other than on car trips.

I agree if they are used as a sleeping place but to lock them in for hours on end is not right.

Both my dogs have there ovel beds to sleep in and they do just fine.
When I go out and have to leave them alone they are left in my front room and they don't cause me or themselfs any prob's.

The only time I had problems was when my BC was a pup and while out he chewed the sofa to bits but he was a pup and pups chew so not his fault.

Karen

Before I got my 2 present dogs I never crated/caged my dogs, my last dog a BC had free run of the house but then she was a rescue dog and had a fear of confined spaces. She was so grateful for a nice home that she was never destructive so I had no worries there.

My 2 weims, well maybe only the youngest now, can/will be very destructive if left on his own and I mean I only have to leave the room and he is up to no good :rolleyes: I put this down to his age (13mths) and I'm sure by the time he is a mature adult he will have settled down however I still wouldn't go out and not put them in their indoor kennels (that's what I prefer to call them). It gives me total peace of mind knowing that they can't hurt themselves when I'm not there. I've seen how they can tear a cushion apart and start eating it in a matter of seconds and this is when I've turned my back for a second so god knows what they'd do if I were to leave them for a couple of hours. With regards to training I think the only training an indoor kennel assists with is house training and to me that's just an added bonus not the reason for the kennels. My dogs are only put in their kennels either when we go to bed or when we have to go out and it's not appropriate to take the dogs with us (very rare actually), having said that it's not unusual for our 2 to wander into their kennels by choice.

I'm sure there are some people out there who only use these crates/cages for their benefit rather than the dogs and it makes me really angry because it's these people who give people like me a bad reputation not to mention shutting the poor dogs away for goodness knows how long

Mattie please don't think me rude :-) but maybe the lab you saw caged at the show was caged for the dogs benefit, unless there were other circumstances that you've not mentioned in your above posting ? I know of weims caged on their benches at shows because they are protective on their bench and aggressive to other dogs and I'm very thankful their owners have the common sense to be aware of this. I was walking past one benched dog and if she hadn't been caged I dread to think how much damage she would have done to me and my dog and I was only walking down the middle of the isle so as not to get too close to the benches on either side :-(

Just my opinion for what its worth :-)

Forgot to say that my 2 kennels are pretty damn big, my male who is the largest can stand up, sit down, turn around, rollover and basically have a party, my bitch who is quite small could hold a grand opening in hers ;-)

I've posted about when and why I bought a crate, but wanted to say that same as you, when we did we bought the biggest size available - her dog bed could fit and she still had half the crate available to move around in. You could fit 4 dogs in it of the size mine are! Although I struggled with the idea initially, I figured if she was going to have to spend a 'few' hours in there each day she would have enough room to potter round, play with toys and not feel cramped.

Wendy

Hi Claire No I dont think you rude to say that I'm hoping we are all allowed to air our views in a polite manner and I'm not getting at anyone at all. it was a shock to see the Lab caged but its a few years ago and its not a common sight now anyway but can I comment on your description of the wiem being horrific on the bench there is more and more of that now have you noticed? In Labradors I'm afraid we expect above average behaviour at shows (in fact anywhere) and its is a rare occurance to see a Lab flying out off the bench but it has become a bit more noticable with certain Labs,the owner of such a dog would tend to get the cold shoulder from other exhibitors as its not acceptable from a labrador.My dogs are taught to go on the bench and to settle down someone sits with them at first then eventually keep sneaking away,but some just plonk their dog on the bench and dissapear for hours and with puppies thats not fair.
I knew when I raised the cage subject( due to something that happened last night) it would bring mixed reactions some for some against,but whatever your veiws at least people reading will look at both sides of the argument before dashing of to buy a cage,and if so then thats a good thing isnt it?Please dont take it personally though as its not meant that way :) :)

No it's not just you :-) I do use them at shows & in the car & they can be useful if used correctly with young puppies (for short periods only) but it seems that crate training is now being promoted as the only way to house train a puppy ie you MUST crate train if you want a well behaved puppy (nonsense of course!) It also seems to be fairly common on the other side of the pond for full-time workers to crate their dogs all day!!! I was looking at a site just the other day which advised people who did this to let their dogs sleep with them at night so that the dog could have some human contact - it's apparently considered "acceptable" for a dog to be kept like this? There are also show people in this country who keep their dogs in crates most of the time - you can generally tell when you judge these dogs as they have next to no muscle tone & long nails usually!
As with any training tool, crates are open to misuse & abuse although used properly they have their place, however they don't suit all dogs & it's perfectly possible to train a puppy without one :-)

Jane

Jane I'm going off course here but I didn't know you were judging at the Border Counties show on 27 January, I would have come and said hello :-)

Hi Claire

It would have been nice to say hello :-) Were you showing? I thought it was a v pleasant show with a nice atmosphere (well no-one lynched me anyway :-) )

Jane

Hi Jane

Yes it was a good show, very good turnout too! My breed class had 15 entries and I wasn't placed, not that that suprised me, however I won my AV Puppy class so that left me smiling :-) I'll keep an eye out in the catalogues for you in future, promise not to lynch you though, just a friendly hello ;-)

Here we go again at slamming all those people who use a perfectly reasonable piece of equipment properly because some don't. My dogs DO enjoy being in their crate.

I stand by what I do with my boys and their crates. They love to run in it at bedtime, if they are not in it they are upset and unhappy and wander around the bedroom aimlessly and scratch at it and whimper for it to be opened - they see it very much as their den. They love to go in the one in the kitchen, they get a chew one goes into the crate the other runs off to a corner. But generally they chose whether to go in it or not. The only time they are shut in is when we are doing something in the kitchen that means they need to be out of the way. If they can be put outside, then that's where they go if not, then it's in the crate. In the car ir keeps them very safe.

I had'nt intended for my boys to use crates once they were fully grown etc, but they like it. I am not about to put them through unecessary distress and remove something they love.

No reasonable person would condone the constant crating of a dog. I agree it is wrong to crate a dog all the time while you are at work and if you have to do that then the person didn't really think enough before getting the dog.

It also comes down to the individual dog, there are many that don't get on with them. But please don't have a go at those of us who do use them with consideration and not as an excuse for not managing our dogs properly or humanely.

Pam n the boys

Pam, Whilst not wishing at all to offend I say each to their own way of doing things but when you say they are happy well thats fine but how do you know? dogs are creatures of habit and will get used to anything.You may find them ok but I worry about people who buy a cage because its the in thing to cut corners,a quick fix,and open to abuse.Leigh is right in her opinion that they are used a lot when people have far too many dogs to cope with.
Whilst appreciating that you are a very good dog owner there are many that are not.I've had dogs over twenty years and have never used a cage for housetraining,just imagine a large young pup desperate to go to the toliet but not able to circle around as they do and then squat down I cant imagine a worse feeling.A bit like being caught short in the supermarket and rushing to the loo and seeing a big sign CLEANING IN PROGRESS arggg
.

Mattie you have raised a valid point re the house training and dog not able to go to the loo whilst in an indoor kennel however a good dog owner should never put the dog in this position in the first place i.e. leaving the dog in the kennel too long so that it is desperate for the loo

But I agree indoor kennels in the wrong hands can unfortunately be abused, I guess us who do use them correctly feel the need to defend ourselves sometimes. (I use the term "correctly" loosely because some would still argue the need to use kennels) No good dog person wants to be thought of as a bad one do they :-)

Not really understanding all the crate talk really? I know some of you are breeders etc. and have your ways to deal with it.

When (many years ago now) we got a family Boarder Colllie Tubs he never had this crate thing you go on about he had his bed in the kitchen and was very happy there.

Molly my Boarder Colllie has her bed in our room a bed in the living room (mud trap fluffly thing!) She is very happy she has her own space and can see what is going on around her.

The idea of putting a dog or puppy in a cage or crate for a few hours dosen't seem right to me some how?

Please don't all gang up on me now! No offence intended, but it does seem a little harsh? If your dogs as some of you mentioned go there becuase it's their space and can relax etc then I don't seem the harm if they are not locked in and can come and go as they please indoor kennel as some of you have said.

But to lock up your dog and go out really does not seem right to me, by that stage shorly they should no right from wrong so you can trust them for an hour while your out?

I know your all going to pick on me now what do I know and all that???! Not as much as you do that's why I come here to pick up on your advice and it's good advice too! Bye..

Julieann and Molly

I have to play musical crates with my dogs as they dont all like each other. However, I do take them all out for walks everyday, their muscle tone would be the envy of many, I do show them as well and they all have their quality training one to one time with myself. The alternative is to rehome them all, rehome any more that I bring in which dont fit and so on is that the better option? Thousands of dogs die every year for no reason other than there isnt a home for them. Whilst the solution I have isnt ideal and as soon as I am in a position to provide them all with outdoor day kennels then they will have the freedom the free running ones have but isnt that better than overloading the rescue system which isnt coping at the moment? Those in crates when given the choice to run free go back in after 10 minutes anyway once the mad run around and training has been done.
I know of dogs that are kept in outdoor kennels all the time have far less interaction with their 'owners' than those kept in indoor crates simply because they are stuck outside would you rather that?

Bec

Sounds like you do a great job and I so agree with you that rehoming is far better than the poor dog being put to sleep.

As I said early the crate things is a new word to me as I have only had one dog at at time (apart from Molly's friends coming to stay!) I surpose I have had no need for one.

Regards

Julieann and Molly

Tilly, A lot of people will agree with you so don't think anyone will pick on you :) I suppose you like me just accepted the inevitable damage that a pup has caused while learning what is an is not acceptable when left alone. I use the kitchen to shut the dogs in when out, as they cannot see out and bark at passersby! with the four I now have I have lost a bit of lino to each of them! Keep meaning to put down lino tiles. bought the required amount and some boxes of spares a couple of years ago, but still haven't gotten round to it! My excuse is, when the puppies go, or when so and so grows up!

Hi Pammy,

My dogs too love cages.
No I don't shut them up in one permanantly but I use them while travelling and at shows. I also have one up in my kitchen where I will often find three dogs at once trying to lie in it.
I always used to hate the things but the dogs love them. Ours think they are dens too.
I DON'T agree with them being locked inside all day, I Don't agree with any animal being locked inside a house, cage, kennel,run etc all day.
But like a lead it is very useful .

Please don't tar all people who use crates with the same brush. I, like Claire, call my cage an indoor kennel. It is permanently up and is very big. I have 2 young children and quite often you will find them crawling all over the dogs playing. What do my dogs do when they have had enough, they simply trot off into their kennel. It is THEIR home. My eldest dog, now being five, does not need to be crated when we go out but he puts himself in there anyway. Yes this might be habit but I have often left the cage door open and he is still in there when I come home. My young bitch, at just 15 months can still be quite naughty when left alone so being in the cage keeps her safe as well as my home! My crates were invaluable when she had her season. I use a crate when benching because my dog relaxes completely in it where as if he is just put on the bench without one he spends the whole time howling. You all talk of using cages in cars. Well I do as well and quite often they are crated for 5 to six hours with just a couple of loo stops! Far longer than you would leave a dog at home crated but this seems to acceptable. I would like to think that most that post on here are loving and caring dog owners who would never put their dogs under any uneccessary distress. Well please realise that those of us who do choose to use indoor kennels are just as loving and caring.

I to use a crate, and i will call it that because thats what it is. My gsd as a pup was in one and as he got older he became destructive not just a little bit but a lot, and i did give him the chance to come out of it but if you had seen what he did to my front room one day, he was lucky he just got put back in the crate because i could quite easily have killed him!!!. He was always fed in it and slept in it and yes the door was shut on him, but when he started to behave himself he was left out of, it was left out though with the door open and he still always used to go in it to sleep even though he didnt have to, so with regards to them not liking to be caged that speaks for itself, and now i have a cocker who was re-homed with me and i found out the hard way that she had no idea how to ask to go out to the toilet, the worst case scenario was when she wee'd all over the bed that i had just literally changed, and she has also just poo'd on my carpet about 5 mins ago!!! having not asked to go out yet again, but we will get there soon i hope! then she to will be allowed out of the cage when i am not in just like the other 2. for me they are a usefull piece of equipment, what do you do put up with having your house destroyed or do you have the common sense to use a crate while you are trying to sort the problem out?.

Yes well: perhaps those who have knowledge of how bad a cage/crate is for my dogs would explain it to them, my youngster can't wait to get into his , the second the sun goes down there he is banging on the door asking to be let in. Please explain to him and me how being in a cage all night is worse for him than eating lumps of skirting board, sharp and just waiting to damage his intestines. I don't have kennels 'big cages'. JH

I am waiting for my second dog at the moment (hopefully developing as I write!). I have never had two dogs before and had thought that a crate would help during the puppy stage.
My two and a half year old "collie-cross" has graduated from being shut in the kitchen, when I've had to go shopping, to having the run of the house. He is still shut in the kitchen overnight. I was planning on using a crate for shopping trips so Ben doesn't have to lose his freedom for the puppy's sake, and so the two dogs can be near each other so they can get used to each other safely. I would hope the puppy is soon able to graduate too, but not knowing her personality yet I guess we'll see. Being a border collie, though, I fully expect her to chew everything in sight for the first few months!
I have only read information that has been supplied by the makers of crates, who aren't going to tell you what can go wrong, and by those who are happy with theirs, so I would appreciate Mattie and Leigh advising what problems I might be causing considering how I am thinking of using the crate, and any suggestions from anyone how else I can manage the situation. :)
LynnT

I am pretty much pro- crate when it is in the right hands - because i believe an awful lot of dogs end up in rescue during the chewing stage, when owner pops out, comes back half and hour later and the sofa is ripped to shreds.

I am not in agreement with them being used for long periods as then they can indeed be likened to a prison cell.

My dog gets popped in hers when for instance I am cleaning out my other pets who are indoors. Don't want them eaten after all :D

But yesterday i heard a sad tale from a friend trying to help a lady with Setter problems. God, that dog is shuti in a crate all night, then again all day while she is working. That to me is disgusting.

Lindsay

Lindsey

That is terrible to leave a dog in a crate all day and night that person should not have a dog!

These are the kind of things that make my blood boil over!!!!

Julieann

Hi Lyn, I cant speak for Leigh but I think she is in a similar mind as myself as we are or have both involved in rescue,I have seen some very bad cases of Labradors being caged so much they are stir crazy,with being generally an active breed to be cooped up all day so very bad.We have been trying unsucessfully to get a Lab away from such a home the dog is caged nearly 24 hours a day the rspca know and they say if he is fed and looked after thats all he needs the neighbours are so worried about this dog he is nervous and very sad and wees when spoken to.Last night we took in two very large labradors who have been in the same small cage together one had been biting the other and the victim has chewed his feet and legs so bad he may have to be put down.because both front legs would have to be removed and he cant live like that.
Please understand that this is MY opinion only and there are some good uses for cages when used by sensible people,I just wish they were not recommended willy nilly for house training there is no substitute in my opinion for patience and understanding

Thanks, Mattie.
LynnT

Mattie

That is so sad. Why on earth do people put their dogs through such things? Molly is rescued and went through hell in her puppy days. Even now she is four, still showing signs of the abuse you had to go through I could swear now but I'll get chucked off!!

How you can cope seeing these poor animals coming in to you like this I don't know. Your one nice person.

Julieann and Molly

Lynn I can't speak for Mattie, but I think that our opposition to cages probably arose from our work with Rescue dogs. One of my breeds is the German Shorthaired Pointer and for 20 years I was involved in GSP Rescue.
My experience of cages is very simple. I have had dogs come into my care that have been caged 'wrongly'. By wrongly I mean left for huge period of time (eg: 23 out of 24) in cages. In some cases it was used as a punishment but in nearly all the cases ......people had been advised to use a cage as a means of calming GSP's down and to curb their desire to chew. The GSP is an active dog and highly 'charged'.
If a GSP is destructive and noisy its odds on that the root cause is inactivity.

I won't go into great detail here, as you really need to have witnessed it first hand to truly see the results, and I doubt I can do it justice by trying to describe it.
But basically the results were, GSP's that had developed severe mental problems.
To the point where these dogs could not be rehomed.
They would fall into two main categories, firstly dogs that suffered from severe 'hysteria' be it in or when realised from their cage. I am not talking about overly excited here .... I am talking about out and out hysteria that was dangerous to both the dog and anyone in close contact with them :-( Or secondly, you would have the dogs that had totally shut down ....the dogs 'soul' had gone and all that was left was the shell of the dog. The dogs would stand bulk still and stare. If you moved them, they would move where you had put them and continue to stare, the dogs spirit had gone and once that happens, you can not get it back :-( In both cases and everything inbetween, it is soul destroying to see a breed of dog that leads life to the full behaving like that.

So, there you have it ......thats why I am opposed to the mass recommendation of cages. Ok, so people here have had success with them, but maybe when they are recommending there wholesale use,they could take the time to explain the proper use of said cage and more to the point ....what will happen to the dogs, if the use of the cage is abused.

Sorry, if this sounds emotional ....it is

Leigh