Went to buy puppy food for Dizzy today as we're getting to the end of the beta puppy food her breeder gave me. Anyway I took her into the shop with me (while I can still carry her :rolleyes: )and the young lad behind the counter was really quite cheeky about feeding her this :(

He advised me to get Nutro Large Breed puppy food (which I had considered but not decided on) and said that 'anything else is asking for problems with her bones'. I asked his opinion on BARF and he said it wasn't sensible as dogs need such a fine balance we should leave it to the scientists.

I stuck to the Beta for now as that's what she's on but need to decide what to go with as I don't want to chop and change her. The Nutro does look good and doesn't have any animal by-products, colours, preservatives etc - is it worth the extra money???

I cant speak for big breed foods as I dont know much about them but I would say go for Nutro over Beta.  Nutro dont use offal and it has no nasties in it and it is meat based where as Beta is cereal based with only a small percentage of meat in it (most of which is probably beaks and feet ).  Nutro is also what is known as a premium food therefore you dont need to feed as much as you do the Beta and therefore you get less coming out of the other end :D :D

Remember if you do change over do it very gradually :)

Claire

Nutro large breed puppy contains Ground Rice, Corn Gluten, Wheat Flour, Rice bran, all of which are cereals!  Although dried chicken is the largest SINGLE ingredient in the mix this does NOT mean that there is more meat than cereal in the food! 

Not sure what "nasties"? it does NOT contain as it does not say, :D neither does it say that it does NOT contain offal.  Offal is a very nutritious food for both humans and dogs.

I would still go for Nutro over Beta as a convenience food :D  Obviously BARF would be better but I dont know alot about it so couldnt possibly comment :D :D

I wonder how much the shop assistant knows about BARF?!  It is amazing how animals have managed all the years before scientists isn't it? :D 

It would be interesting to document whether the increase in OCD, Hip Dysplasia, heart murmurs, Allergies, Kidney Stones etc etc etc has risen with increased uptake of "scientifically" prepared convenience foods ?! :)

........... the shop assistant wouldnt recommend BARF - he would lose all his customers to the butchers :)

:D :D

His reasoning against BARF was that lots of dogs are developing allergies but I think this is because we changed ther diet in the first place????

I don't know enough about it to do it yet but I'll be looking into it as she grows a bit :)

:D :D :D

And the logic of this argument is?

Dogs are developing allergies to what?

What is in the processed food that the dog is NOT allergic to or PREVENTS allergy?

Wishfairy, my puppies were weaned onto Burgess Supa Dog Puppy, I did try Nutro when Hubby forgot to get the Burgess from the wholesaler and I found they became hypo on it, they were fighting and squabbling all day but as soon as I put them back they settled down.

I tried Nutro - it sent Willis round the bend. I wouldn't touch Beta either. Try Burns :) 

What diet is she on? Are you giving her vit C and oil for her coat etc? :)

Hi CloeH :)

Just emailed you but make a coffee before you start reading it... it's a bit long :o

Her breeder hasn't given me any advise about suppliments at all... when I asked her she said there's a diet sheet in your pack, read it. Only it doesn't tell me anything other than 5 feeds until 8 weeks then 4 etc. What suppliments would you recommend and in what quantities?

She's not keen on her weetabix either but I don't want to cut it out in case she becomes constipated - is she likely to?  Blummin dog needs to reed a few books herself - she's never awake at recommended feeding times and wants to play at 10 o'clock at night :rolleyes:

Mailed you back. Suffice to say Weetabix is not sufficient for a growing dane, there's nowt in it that a dog would choose to eat :rolleyes:

You want to be giving her scrambled eggs (mine have them raw now), tripe and beef mince (raw), tuna, a vit C tablet a day, plus a meal of Burns or Oscars or similar. Goats milk is better for her than cows and she will also benefit from live natural yoghurt. Will mail you with more details though :)

<<<there's nowt in it that a dog would choose to eat>>> Wouldn't be my food of choice either ;)

I gave my last puppy scrambled eggs and wandered why the breeder hadn't recommended them - thought it was maybe to much protein? She also told me to use evaporated milk mixed 1:4 with water.

Local butcher sells beef mince for 50p lb - fairly fatty but human grade. Would this be ok?

I'll take on board any diet advise you have. BARF seems a bit fiddly but I'm sure there's a compromise :rolleyes:

BARF is not for everyone; it is a choice.  I expect I am quite guilty of corollary syndrome in that because I believe so strongly in it I tend to think it is the ONLY WAY :D

If you are going to feed meat you MUST feed bone as well otherwise the dog does not get enough calcium for proper bone development. 

I always advise people to read as much as possible about it, join sites such as Britbarf etc, so that they can make an INFORMED decision when they have weighed up all the pros and cons.  BARF does not suit everyone because there is no doubt that dipping a mug into a bag of food is MUCH easier and quicker.  (And a lot more convenient when travelling in the hot weather etc).  :D

Eggs are in fact the perfect protein against which all other forms of protein are measured.

There is no rush, take your time, do your research, talk to others especially in your breed that do it and make your own mind up.

HTH

I am on a half and half diet with my dogs. I can't do the full barf thing because I worry too much about the bones - I just can't do it - even though the dogs loved them. So, I feed raw meat for ONE meal with a mixer and then a complete for the other meal, usually with table scraps, tuna, cheese etc etc. Mine do have big meaty bones from the butcher though.

You need to give her raw green tripe preferably, I get it for 19p a pound - so its cheap, but it stinks.

Scrambled eggs are very good for pups :)

Tohme - I agree, BARF is the best, but when I did it I found the dogs were eating better than the rest of us :D

Tell me about it :D  :D :D

Vit C is very important and I am surprised that large breed breeders do not recommed it, I give one 500mg tablet and when they start to teeth it is upped to 2 or more tablets a day depending on the size of the puppy.

I would not feed tripe to any Dane puppy or any large breed puppy at all.   It is extremely unbalanced in it's phosporous to calcium ratio.  I only found this out after a friend & I had been feeding our pups (Mine a Munsterlander, her's a Ridgeback) and both developed severe growth plate problems on the tripe.  Our dogs were given large doses of calcium and a recommendation to feed a complete (By the vet and no promo on Hills either!) food and not to tamper with the diet.  Later I heard of a Wolfhound with similar & a Labrador, all fed tripe as youngsters.

Edited to add:  I wouldn't give evaporated milk either.  Welpi or Lactol (At a push) is far better suited to a growing dogs needs.

BUT stay away from tripe.  In my puppy sheets I always list the foods I recommend (As well as giving away a few bags with each pup) and those I don't, you will find which "completes" suit your dogs best. 

Very interesting - I shall mail my breeder about this as she recommends tripe be given right from the beginning. I have always followed her diet plan when feeding my dogs.

Chloe,

I will never feed tripe again, if you could've seen how much pain Asti & Kruger were in as pups you would never feed it again either.  The imbalance causes a lack of density in the growing bones, infact Kruger's was discovered by the time he was 12 weeks old, Asti's went over a longer period of time (She was 6 months old by the time she was discovered).   My resulting litters have been fed on completes and I have never had a problem since.

Green Tripe analysis

Moisture 71.37%
Crude Fat 11.70%
Protein 15.82%
Ash 1.23%
Phosphorous 0.14%
Calcium 0.12%
Calories 756.35 cal/lb.
pH 6.12
Lactic Acid Bacteria 12,000 CFU/G
Linoleic Acid (EFA) 2.72%
Linolenic Acid (EFA) 0.37%

Hi,

Your green tripe analysis how many grammes is that for?
Useful information :-) if I knew the quanity.

Briony:-)

Surely the analysis would remain the same whatever the quantity?

Hi,

Sorry having a senior moment:-)
Suffering from this bug thing thats going around brain not in gear.

Briony:-)

Burns
A few of my friends have found that their dogs coats go very scurfy and also they drop
alot of weight.

I feed my Boxer Nutro, I've tried Burns and one dog was ok the other no, she lost skin/coat condition
etc. So it really depends on the individual dog.
The lamb and rice doesn't appear to make mine hypo anymore than they normally are.

Hi there,

Congrats on your new puppy, I'm sure she's keeping you on your toes.  I'd just like to add to this post that you have bought what I assume is a well reared puppy from a breeder with many years experience of breeding and rearing Danes - I have certainly watched many dogs bred by them or from their stock in the ring.

Now, whilst I use Nutro and find it extremely good for my dogs, I would suggest that what you should be doing is following your breeder's advice until your dog is substantially older and over it's main growth period - this is certainly what I ask people to do when they buy a puppy from me, although I do appreciate that when they are adult people will do what they will do :).

Now, Chloe will hopefully know from our email conversations that I am very sympathetic to her current situation with Willis, but I would ask you to think how you would approach your breeder in the future if you had similar problems and haven't followed her dietary advice?  I know that in that situation, I would obviously be very upset, but would feel very aggrieved if my advice hadn't been followed.

Anyone who has seen pictures of Danes from years ago will know that they are now a very different size/build to what they were not so many years ago - much more impressive and heavily built, which brings with it its own problems.  Dogs in the wild who obviously live on a BARF diet do not have the build or rapid growth pattern of a Dane - they are a very specialist breed, and if you want the support of your breeder, I'd recommend you follow their advice.  If you have a particular problem with Beta - i.e. allergy, dog doesn't like it, etc. - I would ask them what they would recommend you change to.  If your breeder has not recommended any additions to the diet, then in her many years of experience your puppy does not require it.

Well, that's me wittered on for long enough, and not meaning to be controversial at all - just my two penn'orth ;).

M.

Hi,

I would imagine whether you feed the BARF way or complete in growing puppies the amount of protein given daily has to be watched.My Golden pup does get tripe but not everyday and when she reaches 14 wks I shall reduce her protein slightly until 6 months and fill her up a bit on pasta and rice if she is hungary.The reduction in protein slows down the bone growth and enables the muscles to catch up.Thus reducing the stress on the joints which is beneficial to the sound develpment of hips and elbows.
So the amount of protein which ever diet you feed has to be watched ,so include tripe but remember to take into consideration what else is being fed and amounts.

Briony:-)

Hmmmm, I see what you are saying. I think I'm just nervous because I haven't actually met any of her dogs, seen her kennels or even had much contact with her. We've emailed a few times and spoke for 15 minutes at the ferry port when I was picking Dizzy up and she seems like a very nice lady but it all came about suddenly and nothing was done the 'recommended' way :) She seems happy enough on the Beta but she does seem to prefer my other dogs cheap old Bakers :rolleyes: I'll email Jennie and ask if she recommends I stick to the Beta or if she starts them on it because it's easy to get and midway in the price range.

I think I'll start giving her eggs for breakfast and maybe a weetabix at bedtime if she's hungry - warm and milky might settle her. I'll definately start with the vitamin but I'll sit out the tripe for now - although it's strange that one breeder should recommend it while others feel it's borderline dangerous :( ChloeH - if you find anything out about it can you let me know?

Thanks for all the advise - keep it coming :)

Tripe, yes for an older dog but as I have said I won't go down the way again with a puppy.  It must be more than coincedence that 4 "large breed" pups all developed growth plate problems and all were fed on tripe.   

I have used Vit C too after it was mentioned in Hungarian Vizsla notes many moons ago, when it was used in feeding trials in pups in the US.   I would also feed a "junior" food as opposed to a puppy food for a slower rate of growth.  Think I have a photocopy of these notes somewhere.

Can't say I agree with you - My Large Munsterlanders - Shelley (Full Champion) and Alex ( one CC away from a Full Champion) were fed on tripe from being young puppies as are all mine. I'm horrified that I might not be able to continue this way of feeding. I feed a good quality complete -Eurotec Working Dog Chicken and Rice and regulate their condition with tripe.The more energetic they are or the more stress they are under - the more tripe I feed (up to 500g per day) I also use this feeding regime in my boarding kennels and have had Munsters winning at Champ shows two days after leaving my boarding kennels
Lynn

Hi Lynn,

It's my bad experiences with tripe & Asti, I won't do it again, that's my opinion about tripe.   It was such a dreadful thing to see her in so much pain and it was my vet who pointed out the imbalance of phosphorus to calcium, otherwise I would never have known.

Christine

Anything fed to the exclusion of anything else or in excess is potentially damaging "dangerous".  Tripe fed as part of a varied diet is an excellent food, not on its own!

Clearly I should have pointed out that out of four meals for a pup one would consist of tripe. Nikki - I know you haven't had much support from your breeder, you know where I am if you need anything else, and I can always put you in touch with other dane breeders if you need further help. I'm not commenting further on here.

I would hardly say that adding a bit of tripe to a puppy's meal was feeding in excess.   Tripe is brilliant for adding weight to a dog but I will never add it again in a puppy's meal.

To look at your puppy curled up, so sore it can't move - looking like she has a bad back injury - not wanting to walk because it's painful on her joints.......never again. :(  :(  :(  :(

My first Munster was raised on Vitalin & tripe for every meal from his breeder with a large bowl of puppy milk daily too...the thing she added to his diet, which probably balanced it, was a calcium tablet daily.

Sorry I am confused I understood from your previous post that you would never feed tripe again as you believed it was the direct cause of ill health in your pups?

My point was that I don't believe that there is anything intrinsically wrong in tripe but any dog raised on any ONE source of protein etc will not be getting a healthy and varied diet capable of providing all nutritional requirements.  Tripe fed as PART of the diet including muscle meat, offal, RMBs, eggs from a variety of animals can surely cause no problems?

My first Munster was raised on Vitalin & tripe for every meal from his breeder with a large bowl of puppy milk daily too...the thing she added to his diet, which probably balanced it, was a calcium tablet daily.

Yes he was fed this way but the growth plate problem was in my second Munster, a bitch.  I followed a similar diet to the one that my first one came on but not adding the calcium tablet because of the calcium tablet hype, also I used a better quality puppy food than Vitalin.   Likewise my friend did similar with her Ridgeback (As both pups were separarted by 7 weeks in age).   When the growth plate problem was diagnosed in her's, she immediately switched to Eukanuba and when mine was finally diagnosed, I switched to Pedigree products. 

Since then, I own Munsters 3,4 & no.5, all of which I have bred, raised onto Pedigree porage and a good quality complete & I have not had a joint problem with any of these 3.   They have had tripe & mixer as a meal but only once they were over 12 months old.

some nutro varieties contain salt (not good for dogs but they like the taste so its added to lots of brands to make it popular with the dog) another contains garlic which is from the onion family which is very bad for dogs. i use burns which seems fine at the moment, the barf diet is far to complicated for households who work and have kids and if your not getting it balanced right your doing more harm than good!

how can garlic be harmful to dogs - a lot of people on here recommended garlic tablets/supplements etc to help with flea problems.  I give it to mine as well - not regularly i must admit, but they do have it.

Nikki xx

apparently onion is toxic for dogs it does something to the red blood cells and garlic is a member of the onion family, so it should only be given occasionally if at all.

Hi, I was expecting to have bone probs with my 2 young dogs. Poorly from young pups, both malnourished for a long time during critical growth period so I was very relieved when it just didn`t happen because if any 2 dogs should have had bone probs it was them 2 :) Had xrays for hips, shoulders & elbows & the 2 of them got excellent results. :D
They got fed on the Pitcairn diet from about the ages of 5mths till 18mths then totally raw.
I really don`t think reducing the protein helps, it`s the quality of the protein thats important & also not overfeeding them. I don`t see how anyone who feeds both raw & complete can have a balance & this is why it worries me when I hear people feeding both. You may know the amount of protein that your feeding your dog but I really don`t think you can tell how much of it a particular dog is going to digest from a complete food or any other type for that matter! Tripe is a good food, but it shouldn`t be the only food fed, you can`t go wrong with variety :) You do not need to be a scientist to feed your dogs home prepared food, for those who think it`s hard there are enough groups you can join for help or books that have the menus already prepared for you & that takes all the worrying out of it.

Christine, Spain.

I know a lot of people feeding half and half.  Surely if you ensure that the BARF half is varied and complete nutritionally over time, and include a commercial complete for the remainder of the diet, then they are getting Complete and Complete = Complete.

Many folk that I know who went BARF all the way have come back to feeding some complete food.  Often with litters of puppies, as they know full well that the average pet owner has neither the knowledge or inclinatiuon to feed this way.  If they do want to feed BARF then the breeder will support this, but if they are already reared on a good complete then those who want the convienience can continue with this.

Also as owners and breeders there will be times when the convenience of a complete will be needed, and it will be hard if the dog won't eat it, or isn't used to it.

If these new EEC rules about meat by products mean that I can no longer get the raw for my dogs, then at least they are still used to the complete.  Also means if my dogs are being boarded or looked after by someone else it is easy to have complete food portioned out for each with just their bowls needing to be put in front of them.

We as humans often include some convenience food in our diets, and also we often use vitamin supplements during periods of additional stress.  Our dogs probably get a better balanced diet whichever way they are fed than we do.

From my part Barfing friends some of the favourite Completes are Autarky and Arden Grange, skinners Filed and Trial Range, and Red Mills.

Yes but complete what B/less? In the complete food that is. Do people doing both foods check the contnets for cal/phos/ash/mins/vits & then compare that to whats in the raw foods they`re feeding, cos otherwise the diet will be ubalanced over time. Thats the way I look at it.
Yes we all eat convenience foods, but not day in day out every day of our lives & maybe those that do don`t know the ill health caused by it.

Christine, Spain.

Onion can trigger haemolytic anaemia that is why it should never be fed, either raw or cooked.  It is highly unlikely that any dog would consume enough garlic to become toxic!  A lot of us feed our dogs 1 freshly pressed garlic clove every day and have nothing but good results.  Dorwest and many other reputable suppliers also produce garlic tablets for dogs therefore this sort of ill informed scaremongering should be nipped in the bud!

Raw feeding is not complicated at all and perfectly suited to those that work full time.  I work full time and both my dogs are raw fed and in tip top condition.  Feeding raw is only as difficult as you want to make it.  I buy my supplies mostly wholesale once a month, bag it up and chuck it in the freezer, each morning and night I just open freezer, defrost meal and chuck it to the dogs.  Dead easy.

I do that with my own dinner - apart from I dont eat it raw :D  :D  :D

Hi,

What do you do about the veg bit I take it you don't just feed the raw meat alone and do give any supplements?

Regards Briony:-)

I don't feed veg every day, when I do it's a quick whizz in the magimix, 30 seconds and hey pronto; press a clove of garlic, squeeze Vit E and FBO on, sprinkle with Keepers Mix and chuck a Vitamin C tablet at em! 

I usually manage to do this whilst drinking my orange juice and coffee! :D

I don't feed veg every day, when I do it's a quick whizz in the magimix, 30 seconds and hey pronto; Some people just whizz a whole load and then freeze in ice cube trays etc to be defrosted every day.
I press a clove of garlic, squeeze Vit E and FBO on, sprinkle with Keepers Mix and chuck a Vitamin C tablet at em! 

I usually manage to do this whilst drinking my orange juice and coffee! :D

Hi,

I like the idea of Barf but with 6 of us in our family, an older bitch fed once a day,a younger dog twice a day and a puppy being fed 4 times a day I find it difficult.Because
I do have a large family I'm pretty organised to family menus and the freezer then add the dogs into the  planning it is difficult so the complete is easier.I think the chicken wings will have to be given as an occasional treat.The young male gulps the m down whole which I
am a little concerned about for the same reason as small soft sticks which we do not throw for the dogs in the woods etc may get lodged.Admittedly the pup good at crunching them.Each time you give a new batch of meat the quanties  of nutrients also varies same 100g of raw mince from 2 different butchers the nutrients could be quite varable so how do know what the protein or other nutrients content of that particlar meat is accurately without a lab to analyse it, beings no 2 batches even comming off the same animal could
be the same .
Like the idea as I say but how practcal don't know?

Briony:-)