We have a 5 month old Cavalier bitch, Ruby. Our vet's advice is to have her spayed two and a half months after her first season. I know this is the standard vetinerary advice but I am keen to consider this very carefully as its such a major precedure. We would NOT want to breed from her at all.

My understanding of the arguments are as follows -

PLUS points: no unwanted puppies; reduced risk of various tumours; reduced risk of pyometria

MINUS points: the younger the pup when spayed the greater the risk of affecting personality development and incontinence; risks of anaesthetic/major surgery; bad impact on coat quality/increased tendency to gain weight

Does anyone have anything to add? I'm torn at the moment.

Thanks :)

It has to be your choice, be guided by your vets advice BUT make your own decision as to if you follow it.
I think you've got the fors/againsts summed up. Another advantage of having her neutered is, no more messy seasons, no more worrying about where to excercise her for 6 weeks of the year but instead a nice clean girl. Another advantage is no phantoms, lots of bitches will have a phantom post season, but to varying degrees, so sometimes you wouldn't even notice, but another time a bitch could be very moody/sulky/clingy & lactate for quite a long time.

I don't think having her spayed will have any affect on her coat. ( I work with Guide dogs, most are neutered, no problems with coats)

Sounds like I'm suggesting getting her spayed, pointing out all the advantages. I'm not at all, as I said it has to be your choice & whatever is best for you. :)

We've just had Minx 'done' this week, and to be honest, we didn't make the decision until she'd had her first season - she was very moody and miserable during, and went on to have a phantom which affected her badly enough that we were worried that she might have something seriously wrong with her! We were considering it anyway because of the number of 'latchkey' dogs around here, and she hated the three weeks of 'house arrest' too! Having said that, my previous bitch was entire and healthy until she died aged 15, but she was a very, er, 'robust' bitch, and we lived out in the sticks so no unwanted male visitors. Was worried about how the op would affect Minx - she's such a wuss - but she bounced right back and by the next morning she was wanting to race about and fight with our other dog as usual! Day 3 today, she's due in in an couple of hours to have her stitches and whatnot checked.
If Minx had sailed through her first season without any misery, and we didn't have a pack of 'visitors' waiting on the doorstep, we may well have decided not to have her done. Minx is not likely to have coat problems (she's short haired), but our hairy rescue springer/collie cross is also spayed and her coat has actually improved, so I can't really comment on what effect the loss of hormones will have on a cavalier coat. Probably worth adopting a 'wait and see' attitude until she's had her season, so you can see how she (and you) deals with it before you decide!

I am sorry to disagree but Cavaliers, in common with other spaniles and silky coated breeds are more often than not negatively affected inb the coat department by neutering.

Although all my dogs and bitches have been neutered for various reasons I would never do this before at least one year old if I could possibly help it because I think bitches need time to "mature" and the lower the bodyweight the higher the risk under GA IMHO.

As for your other minus points, I have found nothing to affect "personality development", not all coats change (this should only be an issue if you show) and as you are in charge of the food bowl there is no need for them to "gain weight", again this is not automatic; metabolism slows down in neutered animals, one of the many reasons animals destined for the meat market are :)

I have found only one bitch has put on weight after spaying. No matter how little I feed her (she's on about a third of what the others eat) she's still got a lotof fat over her ribs. She gets several miles of roadwork and free-running every day too. The only difference is that she had two litters before being spayed.

Tohme raises an interesting point about food animals being neutered. When I did a course in flock management a few years ago we were told that most sheep farmers no longer castrated lambs because it first put a check on their growth and they fell behind the entire ones, then they gained weight faster, but it was fat, not the lean meat that people prefer to buy, so they were worth less at slaughter ...
:)

Im against spaying and there are two many problems occuring with it and all vets want is money!!!!!

Personally if it aint broke dont fix it!

but it is up to you. You will make the right dessision and dont let anyone tell you differently.

Rox

Sorry owing to past experience on this board, and despite years of research all I will say is do not be swayed by your vet and do nothing unless you know why your are doing it, and yes it will have an effect on your bitch, if dogs did not need the full quota of hormones no doubt the organs in question would have stopped producing hormones by now.

I didn't have my BC x ESS bitch speyed until she was 10 years old - yes, she developed some mammary tumours (which worried the h*ll out of me) but they've been removed - she was speyed at the same time - and boy has her coat changed :( It's all well and good saying 'it won't matter unless you're showing' - but when your sleek coated dog turns into a fluff ball over night, with a coat that matts as soon as the wind ruffles it - it does matter :( I'd suggest that ALL spaniels are likely to change coat if speyed - and it's not nice :( My bitch also suffered with phantom pregnancies, and now I believe that is the only reason I would have a bitch of mine speyed......

i heard from a number of sources when i was researching what breed & gender puppy to get, that cavaliers do risk their coat deteriorating as digger described when they're spayed. i just wanted to sum up all possible effects while thinking about it - if i think speying's medically right, i'm not going to let the prospect of extra grooming put me off!

Thanks for all the info - i will definitely be VERY interested to see how she goes through her first season, it'll clearly be the biggest indicator. (Sorry if this is too much info, but i'm not putting myself fwd for a mastectomy to avoid breast cancer, but if i could have an op to stop my darn horrible periods, i'd be there! I'm thinking alnog roughly the same lines for Ruby, but will be thinking about it verry carefully.)

Katie :)

I'm under the very same dilemma at the moment with my 6 month old Tri CKCS. She's gorgeous at the moment, with the sleekest, prettiest coat, and I don't want to risk turning her into a fluffball if I can help it. Although the vets around here generally recommend getting dogs done around 5-6 months old, I'm not too keen on putting her through it just yet (if at all). This thread has really helped me a lot, and I've decided to wait until after she has her first season to decide. We'll see how she copes first. :)

Bear in mind the longer you leave spaying, the higher the risk of cancers. Weighing that up against coat quality seems a bit weird to me :( In my circumstances I've decided not to read these threads from now on.

For those that know of Ruby's story - we found out tonight that she is dying of mammary cancer. She is nearly 7. Vet says if she was spayed at 5 or 6 months old this wouldnt be happening now.

I am sorry but regularly checking the bitchs undercarriage would have prevented Ruby's Cnacer advancing. This argument would mean that all prepubescent girls should have hysterectomies or mastectomies.

My oldest bitch had a tiny malignant mamary tumour 12 months after her second litter, at age 5. It was removed, and she is now nearly 12 years old. She did have it regrow in same spot when she was 8 1/2, and had the gland and adjoining one removed. I have always kept an eye out for any lumps and bumps. It is all part of normal care. the same as it should be routine to check for them on oneself.

Kathy's Ruby is a rescue dog (Boxer), previously used as a breeding machine. I doubt her former owners cared very much about checking her undercarriage.

Thank you Shadowboxer. :)

Brainless - to suggest I didnt check my dog's undercarriage and that is why she is dying is downright living up to your name - I cant believe anyone could be so ignorant and rude! FYI Ruby's tumour only appeared about a week ago, and has grown so rapidly (still only the size of a pea but was the size of a grain of rice last week) that their is nothing they can do due to her risk for anaesthetic and her age - so I dont understand how ANYONE could have "stopped this cancer advancing". Since we adopted her I have checked her boobs every couple of days. How dare you suggest that this is due to neglect on my part when you dont know me, and you dont know Ruby.

That is what I meant, it was the neglect of her former owners that has led to this sorry pass, not keeping the bitch entire and well cared for.

A well cared for entire bitch can live out a perfectly good life, and most breeders never had their bitchs spayed.  Most I know now spay their brood bitches once they have had their last litter, but this is usually at around 5 to 8 years old.  More often than not to make life easier with multiple bitches in the household all having seasons, often leading to a bit of tension or phantoms.

Brainless - can you tell me how this could have been prevented, even by the previous owners without her being spayed at 5-6 months? This tumour appeared LAST WEEK, so unless they could see into the future I think your claim is unsubstantiated, unless of course you are agreeing that early spaying would have prevented it and this was the root of their neglect. You did not specify in your previous post that it was the old owners' fault - you said it was down to her not being checked, and that if the tumour had been caught early she would live. Well she WAS checked, and it WAS caught early - by ME. For all I know the old owners couldve checked every day (I doubt it but it doesnt make a difference). It still wouldnt have stopped her getting this as she didnt have any lumps til last week. Now your last post was offensive and hurtful, and the way you are backstepping shows you know that. Is it too much to ask for an apology?

Hi Kathy,

I am very sorry to hear about Ruby's cancer.

It is true that the chance of mammary cancer is reduced to near 0% by spaying a bitch before the first season.  Your vet was correct.  I do believe that the possible negative consequences of spaying are less severe and less likely to occur than the diseases that can occur in intact bitches.   In either case, the chances are still relatively low that life expectancy and quality of life will be effected either way by an owner's decision to spay or not to spay.

I personally think it is a matter of personal situation whether to spay or not.  I my situation, I know that I could not adequately protect my bitch from getting pregnant, so she was spayed.  (Husband refuses to be educated or trained!)  I've owned spayed and unspayed bitches and for me that is the only valid decision factor with regard to spaying or neutering.   It is a 100% effective method of preventing pregnancy and producing unplanned/unwanted litters.

Stacey

I am sorry but I did not say in my first post that YOU had not checked your bitch, I was speaking generally that with proper care there is no reason for a bitch to die of mammary cancer. 

It would seem in Ruby's case that the Cancer was elsewhere than in the mammary glands to have become fatal in a week of a lump appearing.  The usual case is the lumps appear first,a nd if left mestasisise (sp) to the lungs and liver.

The study done many years ago on a very small sample of bitches that has been used to maintain that the Cancer risk was reduced with prepubescent spaying has recently (last year or two) been disproved.

Spayed bitches and even males can develop mammary tumours.

Half of all entire (not sure how many spayed) bitches will develop Mammary tumours, of which around 470% are malignant.

I am not against spaying and have two spayed, two entire, and one prebubescent puppy.  My older bitches were spayed after they had their last litter.  I have a six year old who will also be spayed after her next litter.  What I do object to is having prebuscent immature animals natural development messed with on dubious evidence and scare tactics of the Vets.

I know many aged bitches that are entire and have been healthy throughout 13 or 14 years.  I have also known spayed bitches develop various problems associated with hormone inbalance, thyroid problems, diabetes (the latter possibly due to weight gain and poor weight management by the owner).  I have also noticed that my spayed bitches who are kept a trim weight are always hungry, which is not the case with the entire ones.

You said "I was speaking generally that with proper care there is no reason for a bitch to die of mammary cancer."
What am I supposed to think about that? Not only are you saying I didnt check her enough, but now I havent provided "proper care", and she doesnt have to die? I suggest you a) get proper veterinary facts to substantiate what you are saying to someone in their hour of need, and b) learn a bit of tact.

You say "It would seem in Ruby's case that the Cancer was elsewhere than in the mammary glands to have become fatal in a week of a lump appearing.  The usual case is the lumps appear first,a nd if left mestasisise (sp) to the lungs and liver"
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but if you read my posts you will see that the cancer appeared last week. Can I ask what veterinary training you have to be able to diagnose her as already having had another form of cancer elsewhere? I can assure you that as an ex vet nurse I know what to look out for. The reason it is going to be fatal in Ruby's case is because she is too old for surgery at the age of nearly 7, and the vet advised me that it wouldnt be worth it as it would regrow and at her age its cruel to put her through it time and time again. It is NOT because it was elsewhere already.

Until anyone shows me that early spaying is detrimental to a bitches health (and I mean more than a whinge about coat quality or incontinence, which has already been disproved as myth) and by that I mean conclusive and extensive veterinary studies, then I will ALWAYS recommend spaying at 5 months. The argument that vets only recommend it for financial gain is ridiculous considering the amount of money they'd get out of you if your bitch had pyo or mammary cancer, both of which can be prevented to a great extent (totally in the case of pyo).

In the meantime please dont reply to me again if you are going to carry on being insensitive, cruel and unspecific.

I am sorry if you at this sensitive time are taking my GENERAL COMMENTS on the question raised by this thread.  I am adressing the thread in general terms and not your case specifically.

It is a sad fact that one in 3 of us humans will ahve Cancer at some time, and I don't beleive that our animal companions are any different.  We have to a large extent eliminated some of the major killers, and can control many conditions.  Sadly Cancer is one of the ones that still has us largely beaten. 

I certainly have not meant to be cruel. 

Based on personal experiences say yours and those of Jackie H (whose dog had a long life of health problems caused by Neutering) you are going to see things differently.

It is necesary to know that Neutering has benefits, and also the reverse can also be true.  It is rare for the Veterinary proffesion to point this out.

I am sorry that Ruby is ill, and hope you can make her reamining days as good as possible.

Kathy,

I am SO sorry to hear about Ruby's illness - it must be devastating.

To let you into my own perspective just a little bit, we actually got our Ruby because i've had to stop working and move home with my parents cos i have cancer myself, which unfortunately won't be going anywhere but also won't be developing quickly. Ruby has been amazing for me - she's so so loving and we have so much fun together in our days home alone together.

Anyway - all i can say is that i hope you get through your difficult time with your Ruby. I know from personal experience that cancer can come any time and for absolutely no reason and so i have no doubt that you've always done the absolute best for your Ruby. I'm sure speying can have a protective effect but i'm also equally sure that nothing could ever rule out cancer completely.

There's a lot to consider with spaying our pup or not - i will take it all on board and do the best i can by our Ruby. Our vet herself doesn't advise speying until after her first season so i am going to see how she & we cope with that.

All the very best,
Katie :)

Hi Katie
Sorry to hear about your illness. I'm so glad you have Ruby - she sounds like a star!
You're right - nothing can rule out all kinds of cancer. Luckily spaying before the first season can nigh on eliminate the risk of mammary cancer in bitches. If I ever get another, I will make certain she is spayed before her first season, but thats personal choice.
There is a lot to consider - luckily I have yet to see any evidence of the negative effects of neutering - in fact many in the US spay as young as 8-12 weeks old, wish they did that over here!
Take care and all the best
Kathy
xx

Blast there is a time limit for editing now :D.. will have to check for typos in future.  I am forever bashing more than 1 key at a time.

It should say 40% of mammary tumours are malignant.

When I read Kathys post I went to google to see if I could find anything that substansiated her claim that early spaying can prevent mammary cancers and , sure enough , there is quite a lot of info about it on the web :)

Have a look here : HERE and also [link http://www.foxvalleypets.org/dogs/?details=19&page=124]HERE[/link]

Just a couple of examples there ...I found it very interesting as I had never heard of this before ....

More recent research has shown that the original study suggesting reduction in mammary cancer was flawed and too small to be reliable.  Unfortunately I can't remember what the new evidence was.

It's not ALL about coat quality. If I knew for sure that getting Sasha spayed at this age would be beneficial for her health then I would, but at the moment I don't think that's the case. I at least want to wait until after her first season to decide. My older dog was spayed at 6 months and given a second chance I think I would have waited to get her done too. If Sasha can be happy and healthy while remaining entire, I think I'd leave her bits alone.

What do others think? Should a bitch be spayed if you aren't planning to have a litter from her?

Once she is physically and mentally mature then yes.  Unless you are fond of a Peter Pan like forever puppy.  the bitches that I know that have been spayed before their first season are all mentally infant like, which many owners may actually prefer.

One of my own breeding was spayed at 10 months after her first season.  It wasn't until she came to stay recently at nearly 5 years o9ld, that I noticed that she appears not to have matured mentally past the point when she stayed with me at her first season.  It became very clear that she was still a big baby because her younger neice (a maiden 3 year old), who I tend to think of as immature is actually more grown up than she is.  Last time she stayed two years ago they were mentally on a par.

My dogs have a good friend a Golden Retriever who was spayed at 5 months old.  She at 12 years old stil behaves like a puppy, and each of my girls has outgrown her.  I have for the last few years had to take care when letting my youyng ones play with her, as she doesn't seem to know her age.

I know many other cases like this.

These may not be priorities for the Veterinary proffesion, or for those concerned with population control, but we have our dogs for their characters, and in my view they are altered by eraly neutering.

That's laughable. You mean you'd run the risk of preventable disease to ensure your dog wasnt puppylike? I'd give my left arm to have Ruby puppylike, but because she wasnt spayed she is now like a 90 year old woman at the age of nearly 7.

No I like my bitches to go through all their natural menatl development and the wisdom that comes with it.  Having five generations i like to see Great Grandma acting like the matriarch she is.  I love all their stages, including old age.  My nearly 12 year old is a real character, somewhat self important, and expects special treatment :D

She is still fit a s a flea, goes on the smae long walks that the others go on, though maybe doesn't rush around quite so much.  This is the one who was dound to have Carcinoma at Five years old.  I had her spayed as I thought it would help prevent reocurence, but it would seem this is actually not the case.  She is a terrible scavenger, and she is more likely to die of Gastro enteritis now than from any Cancer.  I hope she will live to a ripe old age like her entire Grandmother and Great Grandmother who both lived 15 plus years, and her own Mum is still around at 14 1/2. 

I think longevity more to do with the individuals heredity and overall health czre throughout it's life, which sadly Ruby seems to have had little of in the past :(

Yes they are factors in things like this, although spaying before the first season is the best form of preventative. Unfortunately your bitch is a classic example of spaying not working when its done late as the best results do come from spaying at 5-6 months or soon thereafter, and any positive effect is lost on a bitch once they are no longer young. Ruby is spayed now, but it was too late for her too. In my opinion if someone isnt breeding their bitch then they have absolutely no reason not to spay while they are young, and using factors such as coat condition and puppylike behaviour as an argument not to spay is in my eyes saddening and far from the proper care you mentionned earlier. :(

Who are we to question nature.  Dogs (and us humans) for that matter were given reproductive and other organs for a purpose.  the hormones produced by these organs are part of a whole hormonal system which we throw into inbalance, especially in a system that is still maturing.

Yews there are benefits to neutering, many of them more for the owner than the dog, but ther eare negative effects too.

I will not neuter any dog of a medium breed under a year to 18 months old, except for medical reasons.

"the hormones produced by these organs are part of a whole hormonal system which we throw into inbalance"

Temporarily, but remember these are the same hormones that cause mammary cancer.

"Who are we to question nature.  Dogs (and us humans) for that matter were given reproductive and other organs for a purpose."

We were also given brains and evolved to the point where we have incredible medical knowledge and also compassion. I have no doubt that many humans with intact reproductive organs are probably better off spayed too *lol*. The difference being of course that dogs are 40% more likely to develop cancer than humans, and this is mainly down to the selfishness of our species in breeding dogs for our benefit.

There are plently of ways us humans "question nature" every day. We use contraception, medicine, surgery and other things to prolong our life and prevent the neglect of others. We give up smoking as its a risk to cancer, we have transplants to avoid death. There is no WAY that we can argue that because spaying is not what would happen in the wild, or because removing the risk of cancer is unnatural, that it must be wrong. We do our best to keep our loved ones healthy and happy, and in my eyes a major part of that is spaying/neutering our pets to avoid their suffering and to be responsible when it comes to all the unwanted dogs and pups dying every day because others didnt.

I find it interesting that we turn to nature to support our theories/ideolagies/philosophies when it suits us and turn our backs when it does not :)

Whether this be the subject of birth control, feeding, behaviour training etc etc.  Some quote wolf studies and "alpha", "pack leader" etc etc to back up their theories on "dominance" and "pack order", but in the same breath dismiss looking to the wild when we examine our feeding regimes etc.

Life is full of dichotomies.  Surely it is wise to study Mother Nature and follow her designs, where applicable AND beneficial, combined with current medical knowledge and data in order to provide a synergistic approach that provides the optimum levels of care for our dogs.  We can take the BEST from both worlds without dismissing/embracing ALL for the benefit not only of our four legged friends BUT society.  After all dogs and dog husbandry cannot (and should not) be looked at in isolation.

Just a thought :)

Brainless,

What does spaying or neutering have to do with mental development?   Apart from Champdogs, I have never read or heard anything about spaying affecting age-related behaviour.  I've owned spayed (early and later spay) and intact bitches and never saw a difference. I was active in specialist and all breed dog clubs for many years and never once read or heard anything of the kind.   What aspect of behaviour are you saying is effected by spaying and neutering?  All my dogs seemed to reach maturity at the age expected for their breeds, so maybe there's some aspect I'm missing. 

In addition, what is your source for saying that early spay does not nearly eliminate the chances of mammary cancer?   There are so many years and so many hundreds of thousands of animals that have had early spays that substantiate this that it defies logic.   I'm not saying you didn't read something that said this was the case, I'm saying that a scientifically sound study which negated this experience would have turned the veterinary community on its ear.   At the very least, I'd expect to find countless other studies and articles countering why this so-called study was false (or not). 

I am not taking one side or the other in this debate, there are negative and positive consequences to each.  And as I've mentioned earlier, I personally do not believe in spaying or neutering to avoid diseases that may or may not occur. 

Stacey

Have to agree with Brainless about early spaying. The only bitch I bred who was spayed before her fisrt season never became as mentally or as physically mature as her close relations. I always have my bitches spayed usually after they have had 2 litters, at the age of 6-7yrs. Maybe I've been lucky in having no incidences of mammary tumours, but I don't feel early spaying is in the dog's best interests. If human children didn't go through puberty, they would certainly remain physically childlike for ever, surely this applies to dogs too?

I also agree with the eternal puppy when speyed early - my last bitch was speyed at around 5 months and stayed the eternal 'goon' never really grew old gracefully so to speak.

On the coat front - I appreciate Kathy that you are going through a lot emotionally at the moment - but when you have a breed like a Springer, Cocker or a Setter who simply LIVE for rooting through the undergrowth, a fluffy coat which gathers every little bit of twig/leaf or other undergrowth, which then needs grooming out - and even with the best intention this can be an uncomfortable exercise - then it does become relevant.

Relevant enough to weigh it up as more important than cancer and pyo risks? I honestly cant believe I'm hearing this. You would rather run the high risk of fatal diseases than have a messy pet that needed extra grooming and *might* (although I've never seen any evidence of this) retain some puppy charm? Flippin' 'eck I've heeard it all now!

Kathy, although the illnesses, if they strike, are horrid (nobody's disputing that) the risks aren't statistically high. TheAugust 2003 edition of DogsToday magazine has a very interesting article on this subject. Not many people's pets suffer these things - though it is a tragedy when they do, of course.

Professor Peter Holt of Bristol University believes that the statistics on mammary tumours in unspayed bitches are 'based on one small study of 60 dogs carried out in California many years ago. A further review of this study has shown that other factors, such as age and genetics, may have influenced the result.' He goes on to say "Let's face it, we neuter bitches and castrate male dogs for our benefit, not theirs."

Richard Allport (holistic/homoeopathic vet) finds that neutering is often the trigger for the onset of a whole range of chronic conditions, including skin and coat changes, obesity and urinary incontinence.

I always remind myself of the fact that, in people, cancer susceptibility has a strong genetic link. Did your bitch's mother suffer from cancer? If you don't know, how can you say she wouldn't have developed it anyway?

There are many tales of unspayed bitches whose lives are curtailed by avoidable ill-health, but there are as many stories of spayed bitches who become ill because of the operation.

I wish you and Ruby nothing but the best of luck.
:)

Hi Jeangenie
First of all you know that I dont know her mother's health history - that is a part of rescue and doesnt mean for one minute that it is behind what shes going through. I think I'll go with what my vet says over any online antispaying propaganda :) I DO agree that genetics play a small part in susceptibility, but it has to be under the right circumstances for the cancer to arise. Mammary cancer is caused by the female hormones which are removed by spaying, and if spaying is done early it can nigh on eradicate the risk of mammary neoplasia :)
I'd love to hear the supposed stories of a bitch developing life threatening illness such as cancer from spaying as I have never seen or heard of such a tale. Are these myths backed up by veterinary documentation?
From what I have read both online and at home in my veterinary book (updated in 2002), dogs are 40% more likely to develop cancer than humans - the most common form of cancer in the bitch are mammary neoplasias. Now bear in mind that breast cancer in humans is far from rare, says it all. Not taking the risk for better coat quality personally - and I truly sympathise with the dog of the owner who puts that first. :(
Kathy

I had almost decided to keep out of this discussion,.

But would just like to say that not all Mammary Tumours are caused by the female hormone oestrogen.  Admittedly a percentage of them are oestrogen fed, but quite a number are not.
The ones that are not would occur whether a bitch is spayed or not.

I have both spayed and entire bitches in my care, one of them having been spayed at the time of removing a mammary tumour, at the age of 10, two years later she is still here and in good health.

Jayne

It has been veterinarily proven that most mammary cancers are caused by the female hormones. :)

I'm not talking about a 'little extra grooming' Kathy - I'm talking about hours spent picking little bits of undergrowth out of fluff - not a lot of fun for the owner - and even less so for the dog herself, particularly like mine with an ULTRA sensitive skin (even done gently by hand she can only stand a few minutes at a time)  I am soooooo glad I didn't subject her to a life time of it and thank heaven that my ESS hasn't gone quite as bad. 

Sorry cant justify it myself. I Honestly dont understand why many pedigree owners and breeders put looks before health.

For the same reason so many women totter around on high heels........

Honestly Kathy, I respect your position (don't you work in a spey clinic?) but I wouldn't wish living as Bonnie does now, post spey with full fluffy collie coat from the elbows down) on any dog, especially compared with how she used to live - it's a life time sentence, not a matter of weeks or months which is what cancer does (don't forget - I lost a dog to cancer two years ago too, and had Bonnie diagnosed a year ago)

So what you are saying is that you would RATHER she died of cancer and went through the suffering of that than have her have a fluffy coat? Make me understand this, because believe me I'm trying....

Edited to add: Dont know where you got the idea that I work for a spay clinic. I used to be a vet nurse (not in a spay clinic!) and now do rescue work/fostering.

http://www.purinaone.com/dogcare_cond_atoz_article.asp?Seed=779&ArticleNumber=30066&ICDB_Session=1&ICDB_Session=1

Quoted from there: "There are few cancers that are as easily prevented as mammary cancer in dogs. There is a direct and well-documented link between the early spaying of female dogs and the reduction in the incidence in mammary cancer. Dogs spayed before coming into their first heat have an extremely small chance of ever developing mammary cancer. Dogs spayed after their first heat but before 2.5 years are at more risk, but less risk than that of dogs who were never spayed, or spayed later in life."

Well Kathy - we've all got to go sometime, and better a day lived as a dog that a lifetime lived as a 'Girls world' beauty parlour 'victim'.........  I wasn't sure where you'd been involved with speying - but I did remember you saying (maybe not on this forum) that you were heavily involved with many many speyings, as well as bitches with pyometria (there's another subject for discussion while we're talking about speying......)

Anwen,

I was not referring to physical development re early spay, just mental development.   Many dogs who compete in obedience are speyed so that they can compete throughout the year.  If they remained mentally immature I just do not think people in competitive obedience would spay.

I just have never heard or experienced with any of my dogs a difference in mental maturity that could be accounted for by speying, or not.   Nor have I known anyone who has experienced it either.  I doubt anyone has every done a controlled scientific study on the topic, so the evidence is all anecdotal.  

What we might regard as maturity in dogs, as in people, has a lot to do with learning and environment.  I would not expect puppies in the same litter to behave the same way if they were all raised in different homes with different training styles, exposure to different things, and so on.  Dogs from the same litter can have very different temperaments as well.

A healthy dog should remain active, curious, full of the joy of life and playful all their lives.  I see that as health, not mental immaturity, unless I am interpreting it entirely differently than everyone else. 

Stacey