Since considering using Willis at stud, I have been looking at him more objectively. As you know, I was intending to get him scored beforehand, and as such, I have been looking more closely at his hips. Alarm bells have been ringing.

He has started to drop on his back end. He no longer stands four square, but slopes. He also has a bunny hop movement, and swaggers. He is also reluctant to go with Phoebe for a walk, as he can't cope with, nor keep up with her. This "noticeable" stuff has happened very recently.

I took him to the vets today. The vet is 99% sure he has HD. He is being x-rayed next thursday to see the extent, but has pain upon manipulation of the hips, and with the rest of the info, plus the vet saw him move - my worst fears have been confirmed. So, my dog, that I love to bits, is probably destined to a life of early arthritis, being confined to gentle, on-lead exercise, and pain.

The majority of dane breeders do not hipscore - despite the breed having a high incidence of HD. Why? Because of the risk of the anaesthetic to danes. Oh, thats alright then - better they carry on producing pups with dodgy hips eh. And we, the idiots, keep on buying them because its all kept very hush hush and they keep pretending its not a problem!

Am not happy

I'm sorry to hear about Willis, and no our Dolly wasn't hipscored either so it is a worry and a concern to hear this.

Best of luck......Sarah

Its the parents that should be scored :(

Oh Chloe :(
Hope things are okay

What a bummer, Chloe. :( I hope it doesn't turn out too bad.

Hi Chloe,

Hope he's not to bad, a bit of a downer though. Sorry

Karen

Oh Chloe - how awful for you - we'll keep our fingers crossed.    

Chloe, I'm sorry to hear about Willis :(  I feel like a complete pratt now because I never asked whether or not Diesel's parents were hip scored, I stupidly assumed that they would have to be before a mating could take place :(  and that a dog wouldn't be advertised as a stud, unless they had all the necessary health checks (I should have known better!! )
I think I'll email and ask. I hope Willis isn't too bad .
Sharon
XX

I also feel a total pillock for not checking - but its all swept under the carpet.

Right, just to put another point of view across.....

Firstly I agree all breeding stock should be hip scored, any anaesthetic carries a risk to any breed of dog.  I too, have seen a Dane at Ringcraft with a very peculiar rear gait which didn't look normal to my eye.

Thing is HD is only 20-40% hereditary, not every case of HD is due to a dogs breeding, enviromental causes can affect hips too.  

It's just unfortunate that you have bought one of the 20-40% cases, fingers crossed your vet will be able to help make him more comfortable.

Believe me, I have followed a very expensive and extensive, recommended diet, researched, not over-exercised, read, researched, talked about danes until I am blue in the face...and had Willis not been at such a good weight with decent muscle tone, then things would be worse. As far as I can see, I've done everything to avoid it, and yet my dog has it.. :(

I'm so sorry to hear about Willis. I really don't know what to say, but give him a big kiss from me, and suggest you have a large glass of your fave red wine.

liberty

Chloe, there was no finger pointing on this.

Dog World, a year or so ago, carried a good article on the percentages of HD being hereditary, that's where I quote my figures from.  It was research done by a panel of vets.

Actually all yiu need do is look on the KC registration.  If they have had any test under the KC/BVA schemes the results will be recorded under their names.

In my breed it will say Hips (date) and result, then Eyes (date they were last tested) and result (Affected/unaffected).

Sorry to hear about Willis :(, Ive heard that lame excuse before along with "it's not in my lines so it is not necessary".  It is all swept under the carpet and in my experience anyone who makes a fuss is in for some very harsh treatment indeed!!!!!  I could go on but it would only descend into a very long rant :(

Very sorry to hear about poor Willis. If its any consolation at all ( and right now it possibly ain't) the GSD with arthritis up our way is well controlled on his medication and able to have a good life. He was to have been pts at 15 months with this but is now 6 or 7, has off lead exercise in short bursts, chasing his ball with his wee pal and is kept at a steady weight. Its not the life you imagined for him but Im sure you can help Willis live a hapy one.

Hi i am so sorry to hear about your dog. Have you thought about taking him swimming at a hydro pool? I work at one and we have so many dogs that come to us with h/d One dog a gsd got it when he was 4 months old he could hardly stand he is now 9 months and just by looking at him you would never know he had it.

Hi Chloe

So sorry to hear about Willis - hope everything is okay for you all. I know first hand how you must feel for him. Molly goes to hydrotherapy for her hips as the vet hopes that this may help save her having to have an op but she is a shih tzu so not at all sure about large dogs.

Best wishes, Gina

He wouldn't swim. He hates water. He only drinks it and licks it...adn there's no way I can get him to do anything he doesn't want to :(

It would be worth a try though if it is going to help him? We have st bernerds that come they hated it to start off with we just encourged them in the water.

We've got a swimming pool here...he'd rather die than go anywhere near it - and thats when I am in it - and normally he'd do anything for me. I wish he would - I'd have him there like a shot!!

Hi Chloe,

So sorry to hear about Willis.
However I dont know much about Danes but as with Goldies some dogs do go thrrough periods of odd gaits and lameless and come back sound again due to growth plates etc.
Even if his parents were hipscored and they were super low and good it would not gurantee that Willis still would not develop HD.
We had a Newfoundland same symptoms as yours years back got a second opinion form CAMVET,which is where i'm with Amber now (Radiology unit)
You could ask to be refered there?They did an excellent job on our Newfie and the fiRst dog in this country to undergo a triple pelvic osteotomy for HD what an improvement to quality of life and he needed both hips doing.
How old is Willis?
Good luck.

Briony :-)

Hi Briony

Unfortunately, he has a lot more symptoms than I realised, and only when I started adding them up did it start to form a picture.

What I'm cross about is that so many dane breeders don't hipscore - how can we possibly get an idea of how bad it is in the breed?

He's 15 months.

Thanks for your message.

Oh dear Chloe and my Barney is the same. We had to stop taking him as he really didnt like it. After the float is put on Molly and as she is lifted to go into the water she starts paddling in mid air and is still paddling furiously when she is lifted out - she goes round the pool like a small torpedo and she looks at me as if to say well you wont drown me :p :p

Molly aside, I do hope Willis is okay.

You know Chloe, this is why i have never bred (or even considered doing so) from any of my Bulldogs, as theres no known health checks to date that should be done on them. I think if breeders are to be responsible, all health checks on every breed should be done, to rule out anything and everything, that is considered genetic.
So sorry about your boy :(

Oh Chloe, I don't know what to say except that I'm really sorry :(   

Lesley

Hi,

Cambridge Univisity (CAMVET)are experts in dealing with HD in large dogs ,get a second opinion it may not be as bad as you think many ordinary vets are just good enough or have the expertise to say a dog has bad HD or even has it.Which is why we pay money to have the hip xrays sent away to a specialist panel for scoring.
In my opinion I would pay to have him hipscored through the BVA SCHEME and just see what the individual scores are for each hip then you had an expert panel score your dogs hips which your ordinary vet cannot do.He can take xrays but he can't score them unless sent through the scheme.Then look at those scores and compare to the breed average ,take the xrays to Cambrige.,just my opinion,is he insured?

Briony

Hi,

The breed mean average for Great Danes is 13 out of a possible 59.
Golden Retievers the mean score is 19 out of possible 106.

I would get him BVA hipscored and compare your figures ,but like I say its not all HERREDITORY(SP)

Good Luck,

Briony:-)

Surely all hipscores have a maximum of 106? Are you certain of that 59, Briony?

Everything I have read states its a genetically transmitted disease, which can vary in severity due to some environmental factors? BVA site here and HD is an inherited disease here

Sorry to hear about your dog Chloe. It`s just not that simple, I found the info at the link below very interesting.

http://www.filadog.com/The%20Error%20of%20the%20Millenium%20in%20Veterinary%20Medicine.htm

Christine, Spain.

That was an interesting read, but if diet is to blame (or even partly) shouldn't they of suggested the ideal diet for dogs prone to these problems?

I know ChloeH feeds hers mostly on tripe and I was going to carry on with whatever my breeder has her on while I do some research but would you suggest any 'type' of diet in particular?

I've had rather a lot of wine this evening so you will have to bear with me ;)

Willis has always been fed on a mostly raw diet. He has some commercial food - Burns - but the majority has been raw tripe, beef mince, raw chicken wings, rmb's, heart and a little liver. He has had veg, fruit, scrapings from the table - but has also had a commercial food - as per the DANE BREEDERS recommendations...raw eggs, tuna, vit c and live yoghurts too.

With regards to the diet could equal HD, then OK, fair enough, I don't dispute that - but why the hell aren't breeders TESTING so they can see just how bad a problem this is? The CAUSE isn't my issue right now, its the sweeping under the carpet by breeders who have found an excuse not to test.

Willis will be sedated next week for the x-ray - not fully under - as per my vet. We'll see what happens.

WF - I have emailed the breeder - I'll let you know what happens. I wouldn't wish this on anyone - its horrendous seeing a fit and healthy and happy dog go off his back end like this :(

Hi W/Fairy, the only thing I can suggest is for you to do a lot of research on dog nutrition/diets. I think most of you know what my choice is but you need to decide for yourself. I can pass on links that I think are helpful & interesting, here`s a website of Dane breeders below.
http://www.homestead.com/vonhapsburg/

Christine, Spain.

Thanks Christine :)

Oh mate, I didn't realise it was quite that bad :(

I agree with you about the excuses etc, etc but whille there's suckers like me who will buy of non hip scored breedings then they will keep on doing it. You know what I mean ;)

Have you contacted his breeder yet? It would be interesting to see what they have to say and to find out if any of the rest of the litter are having problems yet. Although are they likley to keep in touch with their pups if they don't have their breeding dogs tested :(

Maybe there's some homeopathic medicines that could help him feel better?

Does it have to be a GA to hip score? Surley there's something else they could do in high risk dogs???

I think she may be confued with the range of recorded scores.  Goldnes having a lot of dogs scored and also being one of the breeds prone to HD have had dogs from 0 right through to the maximum of 106, but the few danes that have been scored have been up to 59.  In my breed the range has been 0 to 61, with the average varying between 13 and 14.

Hi,

Yes that is correct Brainless.

Firstly just to bear in mind even low scoring parents and back futher in pedigree OF LOW SCORING ANCESTORS ,it is possible to throw high scoring puppy in a litter resulting in HD, or all the litter or just 3.What i'm trying to say ,even if Chloe, willis parents and the rest of the pedigree was hipscored it would not gurantee you that Willis still would not have HD,the genetics are not that simple and not an exact science,the hipscore are only guide,and its the only thing breeders have to go on at the moment.
I do agree that all breeding dogs should be hipscored so we can see what is happenig in the breeds as a whole.A GA for a hipscore on a Dane poses no more of a problem then any other dog ,his size should be accurately taken into account by a good vet who knows what he is doing.
I know  people who have Goldies with chronic HD whose puppy was carefully bred and reared and whose 5 generatin pedigrees on both sides come from very low scoring dogs.
Nutrition and exercise as mentioned also play a part.
However breeding dogs with high hipscores going completely unchecked would be a huge concern,I have to admit I thought most Danes were hipscored because of if not only their size?

Briony:-)

Oh Chloe, what a bloo** nightmare for you. Fingers crossed for Willis.

Jo

Chloe,

I'm so very very sorry what a terrible thing to discover, we all try our best for our dogs and you've caught him early he's fit and from his pic has good muscle tone so I hope you'll be alright.

I will keep my fingers crossed for you next week.

They don't test Staffs (normally) either just the eyes but I think they should how do you know prevelant it is if they (the breeders) don't test. 

Thinking of you Karen 

It's amazing which breeds do hip score and which ones are quite blase about the whole thing... 

I know of Ridgebacks that have been bred from with no hip scores and no-one passes comment and yet I have heard that they are now hipscoring Beagles, which is a breed I would never have thought would've needed  done.

As has been quoted before even if you buy from parents with 0,0 hipscores and generations back with low scores, there is no guarantee on any dogs hips.

Can I ask what quantites of tripe you were feeding, Chloe?

He only has tripe for one meal with a mixer. I followed the diet my breeder gave me.

Edit - To be totally honest, I'm not in the mood for questions regarding my raising my puppy - my point in this post is that dogs who are bred from should be hipscored, regardless of whether or not all cases are hereditary or not. I would be shot down on here had I suggested I bred from Will without getting the checks done first.

This is not aimed at you...I'm upset, and p*ssed off :(

im sorry to read about your willis-----but agree with others that youd be best having him scored before getting too upset-----all vets  arent always right from xrays, ive had it said to me with rotts---and the scores came back good---fingers crossed your vets wrong,

Oh Chloe, what rotten news for you and Willis :( Not sure what to say except that i  hope the news is not too bad.

Take care
Lindsay
x

Chloe, so sorry about Willis. It will be worth paying the extra to have him scored under the BVA scheme, then his hips will be assessed by specialists. To my mind, bringing in environmental factors when the parents' scores are unknown is a copout!! It's well known that puppies can have bad scores from good scoring parents, but at least if the parents have been done, the breeder has done all they can to avoid this. Unfortunately, genetics isn't simple!

Hi Chloe
I don't blame you for being upset and pi**ed off :(    Think I would be too.
It's awful news to hear, and he's just coming into his prime.
Remember my old Tess??  She had arthritis for a good few years before we let her go, and the medication was wonderful for her :)  In the warmer weather you wouldn't know she had it. :)
Fingers crossed tho', and hoping it's good news next week.

Hi Chloe
I am so sorry to hear about Willis. As far as I can see you have done everything right and in any case, it's irrelevant as it seems likely that Willis has HD. I agree with you, all breeders with any incidence of HD (especially large dogs) should score the parents, at least then you can choose a good history and at least feel that you've taken the best choice you could to get a problem free dog, although as everyone has said, there's no guarantee.

My GSD I lost a year ago had appalling hips, and eventually at 5 years old she had a hip replacement op on the worst hip, and a year later had the other one done. It was a worrying time, but both operations went brilliantly, and her quality of life was fantastic - she could run, play, swim etc. In fact she could then 'play bow' which she had never done before in her life. Her surgeon was Gary Clayton-Jones (who I spotted the other day is on the panel of the BVA scheme).

I know you said there is a problem with Danes and anaesthesia, perhaps you could give their surgery a call and speak to him and find out if they have done any hip ops on Danes? If it's just a mild dysplasia then he may do very well on medication, such as Metacam.

Understandably, you're firing from the hip at the moment, but there are lots of options and if I were you, I would start to research them, to feel that you are doing something positive. It's a great, great shame, but not the end of everything for you and Willis. I believe there is a vet in Southampton who does hip x-rays for scoring, I don't know where you are but it may be a good option for you. Several people on this board have used them, so if you want to find out, just post the question. I know that Krys has just been there for this.

I have a GSD pup coming up to one year, and I am Lady Paranoia about her hips. I watch her movement all the time and swing wildly between 'she's got great hips', to 'that movement looks a bit dodgy'. So when she's spayed in January, I am going to get her x-rayed and scored. I need to know, but even if her hips aren't good, having experienced it before, I know that they can be operated on if necessary. She does come from good hip scores, but you never know.

I truly do know how you feel, but don't despair. If you want to have a quick word with Gary Clayton Jones surgery, its called the Highlands Surgery, in Tenterden, in Kent. Maybe you could just enquire if they've ever done Dane's hips (in case you find he needs an op). I would suggest that when you do get x-rays you get referred to an orthopaedic surgeon who specialises in hips, and let them advise you. In lots of cases, surgery is not warranted.

Chloe, I wish you and Willis the best. If you ever wanted to discuss our experiences of the operation, I'd be happy to. Just e-mail me.

Kat

Sorry Chloe
Meant to say that the Vet in Southampton does it without GA.
Kat

So sorry to hear about Willis - hes become one of my favourites in the time I've been here. I have heard excellent reports of the lady in Southampton - she (I think) used to be on the scoring panel, so knows what is what. She is not the only vet to do plates without a generel though. Would also like to say that my breed (wheatens) can have problems with anaesthetic, but it is not an excuse to avoid basic health testing.

Hi,

CAMVET are the leading experts in HD IN LARGE DOGS .They have a special orthopaedic unit
second to none it is also where they treat horses for orthopaedic surgery, it IS the best in this country your vet can refer you here it is also the best cancer unit in the this country and Europe.
The triple pelvic oteotomy was developed by John Houlton at Cambridge our dog (Newfoundland)was the 1st dog he tried it out on,it was a huge sucess ,the videos were used around the globe to train other vets in this proceedurethat was back in 1985.They are extremely expert in giving large dogs anaethestics.I believe John HOULTON is now the chief scutineer on Elbow scoring.He specialises soles in hip and elbow surgery .
You can look at CAMVET website and if you ring them they are extremely helpful

It may not come to needing such an operation there are a few types of possible surgery.
Our Newfounland  who was no small dog in terms of size and weight parents were not hipscored he was carefully reared by us unfortunately is hips were so bad they could not be presented for scoring!!!With the above op he was running about again and swimming .
So there is hope for Willis.Don't despair,I know what your feeling because I had the same feelings of anger at the time with Ben,you will get plenty of support from all of us .I do hope you will receive some encoraging news soon.

Take care,

Briony x