Have read with interest comments regarding the feeding of natural raw meats. Is anyone else aware of pending legilsation which will affect the supply of raw meats for petfoods? We are lead to believe by some of the larger manufacturers that changes requiring sterilisation of meat are imminent but are having difficulty in getting a definitive answer from DAFS. These changes would completely alter the products - can anyone shed any light ?

Having spoken to my supplier recently there have been changes in the legislation with regard to raw meats for dogs etc.  This has been due to the recent court case regarding the poultry scam shown on TV and such changes are to tighten up on unlicensed pet food suppliers. Although I understand that the company involved in the poultry scam were licensed!  From what I am told manufacturers have to be licensed under the new rules, records have to be kept for 2 years giving details of where the meats/by-products have come from and where they end up after processing. The meat/tripe are randomly tested for ecoli and salmonella at 'regulated' EEC abbatoirs.      Hope this helps

For those of us who only feed meat fit for human consumption, the legislation will change nothing.  Also the recent poultry scam concerned meat ending up in the human food chain with people bleaching the meat, repacking it and selling to to various sources!

But that did affect people feeding human quality food to there pets. As you said it was sold as human quality.

To be honest, I would be more concerned with the humans that consumed it than the dogs; dogs after all can actually eat things we can't :D

Bump to the top.

In answer to your question all processors of raw pet food have had to be DEFRA licenced to many years. Regarding the new regulations, 10 samples have to be taken of the product lines be that tripe offal or chicken and tested for Salmonella and Enterobacteriaceae. After these 10 have been cleared one sample a week has to be taken. No stock can be sold until the samples are cleared and any product found to contain these must be condemmed and incinerated. No compensation will be given to the processor. Unfortunately it is highly unlikely that any samples are going to come back clear, therefore this new EU regulation will most probably be the end of the raw pet food trade and many businesses are going to lose their livihood. This has been brought in because it is believed that humans do not know that they should wash their hands and utensils after handling raw meat.

"Regarding the new regulations, 10 samples have to be taken of the product lines be that tripe offal or chicken and tested for Salmonella and Enterobacteriaceae. After these 10 have been cleared one sample a week has to be taken. No stock can be sold until the samples are cleared and any product found to contain these must be condemmed and incinerated. No compensation will be given to the processor. Unfortunately it is highly unlikely that any samples are going to come back clear, therefore this new EU regulation will most probably be the end of the raw pet food trade and many businesses are going to lose their livihood. "

So are you saying that the raw meats sold for animal feed now are routinely contaminated with salmonella and enterobacteriaceae?  If so, then if that industry ends it is all the better. Dogs may be better able to handle these bacteria, but they are not invulnerable to them.

Stacey

Stacey. I agree with the points that you have made in your response (in Scotland we are licenced by DAFS and SERAD) but would be pleased if you could tell me exactly where your information on testing has come as you seem to be very well informed and I have found that legislation is proving hard to unravel. All meat obtained through legitimate channels for animal feeding is fit for human consumption and so has been tested at the approved abbatoir where it has been slaughtered. Around 90% of the British herd does however carry salmonella in the gut. By definition unprocessed tripe cannot be free from this bacteria by the very nature of it's function within the animal. This does not however affect the dog ( if stored and handled correctly - over the years thousands of breeders can bear this out) but can of course pose a risk to humans if handled incorrectly. If this legislation being pursued by Europe is passed, this natural unprocessed product will no longer be available and because of the huge costs involved in meeting the changes, the sterilised version will be much more expensive. How do other members of the forum feel about this?

Glum!!!!!!!! I believe dogs can handle it, they live with & always have done since time began. Others don`t believe that, thats fine by me. But I`m old & wise enough to make my own decisions & wish Brussels would allow me to do just that & butt out. They`d be better putting their powers to stamp out the disgusting trade of tampering with meat meant for the animals & being sold as fit for the human table!!!!

Christine, Spain.

Campbell,

I was quoting Dozeydanes .. I think you comment re "well informed" was meant for Dozey.

Stacey

After watching the bodysnatchers last night at least 40 % of raw meat is infected with toxoplasm and most of us are walking around infected with it too, especially those who like raw meat!

It is possible to be TOO clean!

I am absolutely gutted if this legislation goes through.  It is MY choice if I want to feed raw meat to by dogs and I take this type of legislation again as a breach of my freedom - it makes me so mad!

I feed my dogs tripe straight from the abbatoir presently, if this law goes through and I have to feed my dogs cooked or sterilised meat, basically I will not.  I have to say this country is getting completely out of control.  I don't think such legislation can be brought in without looking at many of the severe implications - businesses that will close down etc.  Hopefully there will be such an uproar this will be stopped!  Who can I write to to object?

All raw meat carries these "bugs" and a few more that is why it should be cooked properly and cooked meat should not be kept near raw meat. Also these "bugs" are not harmful to dogs, as we all know it is amazing what dogs do eat and are perfectly alright afterwards. All tripe and offal for the petfood trade can only come from animals that have been passed fit for human consumption but because people like to feed raw meat to their dogs they run the risks of contracting Salmonella and Enterobacteriaceae which is the E Coli bug that can kill and the powers that be obviously think we are all so stupid that we do not wash our hands and bowls after handling and feeding our dog food. Unfortunately there is no point in complaining because the Regulation has now been passed.

I have a not stupid step daughter in her late 20's.   I was at her flat for dinner and she was preparing a roast chicken. She had the raw chicken in the roasting pan - took a knife and used it to take butter out of the tub to spread on the skin -  she then put the knife back in the butter tub!  My mouth hung open and I asked her if no one had every taught her that chickens frequently have salmonella and if it does she has just infected the butter.

No one had taught her .. maybe people aren't stupid, but many are not well informed. 

People can still feed raw meat to their dogs, but I guess now it will be more expensive.

Stacey

Couldn`t agree more Stacy, but teaching good hygeine along with basic cooking skills seems to have got lost somewhere along the way sadly.

Christine, Spain.

im 23 and know the basic hygiene rules (so much so that meat seemed far too scary and decided to become vegetarian instead !) :D

sarah

Simple answer to that Tohme is YES :D

Christine, Spain.

Hi,

Apparently 80% of the French population carry tapeworm because they like their blue steaks so much now that is worrying yuk.

Briony :-)

Perhaps that's why they're so 'fashionably thin'.?

LOL @ JG

Briony :-D

And I bought a freezer for the dogs raw meat.  why can't the beuroprats keep their noses out!!!!  GRRR!!!!

In answer to somebody question about knowing the Regulations, without meaning to advertise I have to know and follow them due to my business, which will probably not exist anymore if the 10 samples come back positive.

I am also a producer of frozen foods but have not been informed of any sampling requirements.
I agree that the probability of any samples coming back negative are very slim and would mean an end to my business and maybe the Barf Diet?

It won't be the end of raw feeding for those of us who feed human grade meat;

Campbell if you are licenced by DEFRA they will get round to notifying you, my licence renewal was due 18th Nov but they only came to see me about it last week, I do think more notice could have been given. A lot of people prefer to feed BARF or raw meat whether it is tripe or other meat and don't want to use cooked meat or completes totally in their dogs diet. I for one don't like to feed completes on their own as dogs are meat eaters so mine have a mixture.

It's in the dog press today, makes me angry because I'm a BARF feeder too and would hate to have to feed my dogs on a complete feed because of some buerucrat (sp?) I'm happy with the way my dogs grow, their health etc and would want to continue feeding them raw meats.

We would like to enlist your aid regarding yet another idiotic EU directive. We own several  Hounds and under legislation coming into force on January 1st feeding raw pet food will be illegal!  This is under the Animal By-Products Regulation which rules that raw food such as tripe chicken and beef will have to be tested for enterobacteria on a weekly basis. We have been told that this test on meat for human consumption allows a leeway of 1000 (?microbes?) but that the allowance on raw pet food will be 300! Thus, in theory it will be 'safer' to eat pet food rather than human consumption meat. Apparently the only way of removing the bacteria is by cooking the meat. This means that lots of small businesses in the pet industry will have to buy expensive new machinery, hire extra manpower and incur extra costs, which of course will be passed on to the customer, or they will be forced to close down.
This consequences of this regulation cannot have been investigated at all as the following questions spring to mind:

What is going to happen to all the unwanted by-products at the abbatoir? Extra money will have to be spent disposing of these pushing up the price of human food. Also what are the environmental problems involved in disposing of these by-products. Incineration of such vast amounts will surely add to the harm we are doing to our planet anyway.

How many pet food firms will be put out of business? What will be the overall knock on effect of  this on small businesses such as ours? (half of our business is delivering raw pet food)
This is taking away our right to feed perfectly safe and healthy food to our animals. We have fed our  Hounds this way for 35 years and our hounds have always been perfectly healthy - and we have suffered no ill effects either.
I expect we will be forced to follow this new directive to the letter while in France and Italy they ignore it. Please help by writing to your MP & MEP and inform EVERYONE. We must be allowed to feed our pets the way we want to!

Admin edit: terms of service

Hi Cambell,Dozydanes,Pod or anyone who knows, can you point me to this legislation on the net please where we can read it.  The britbarf group are trying to find out about it, thanks.

Christine, Spain.

This could be it Christine, but not 100% sure if it's the right one. Anyone??

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/by-prods/publicat/ABP%20Regulation%202003.pdf

Kath

Ive spoken to my meat supplier and the new By Product regulations came into force in July. part of the regulations is the testing/sampling of the meats on a weekly basis.  DEFRA are in negotiation with the Pet Food Manufacturers Association to extend the enforcement of the regulations to give them time to find a way round the testing/sampling part of the regs and hope to achieve this by the end of the month. 

It seems that the EU/Government has rushed this legislation through without thinking of the consequences. Its amazing though but no testing is required on meats sold to us humans - I wonder why!! Obviously somebody somewhere is more concerned about what we feed our dogs/cats.

Hi R/rott, now that wouldn`t be the complete food manu`s would it???? Maybe this raw feeding is making a dent in their profits, I can`t see anyone else interested can you? ;)
Let us know if you find anything on the net about it please :)

Christine, Spain.

Hi Christine certainly not - I'am a natural feeder and my supplier is a raw meat manufacturer. Unfortunately they (and other meat manufactuers I believe) were not told about the changes until after the implementation date (July 03). When their area Vet came to inspect the premsies under the new regulations it wasn't until they came to fill in the new forms with him that the question about sampling arose and when they asked the Vet what it meant he said he had no idea! They did speak to their area Vet again last week and he said he was still looking into a way round the sampling question since all meat tested would contain ecoli etc.  Although they are happy for some form of testing they are concerned about the costs and how it can be done. 

For example if they collect up to 250+ tripes in a day from local abbatoirs to process and take samples from 10 out of that batch and send them off to be tested, they then process the tripes immediately to retain freshness and as their turnaround is quick they probably would have sold the majority of the processed product by the time the results came back. If one of the batches came back positive how would they know which tripe the sample came from and which lb packet contained the rest of the tripe. 

I do believe that the complete food manufacturers are behind this since they would have been aware of it well before the implementation date since they are all members of the PFMA who have been in negotiation with DEFRA for many months about this issue.

Hi Rugrott, yes of course they knew. Doesn`t it make you heavy hearted knowing how much power & influence they have over these things, the only thing of interest to them is the profit they make & how to protect it. Hope there`s a way round this.

Christine, Spain.

rugrott

Can I just correct you, samples must be taken over a 10 working day period, therefore 10 days worth of minced and frozen product must be kept until the results come back clear and none of it can be sold. For me that is going to be a problem I do not have the space for this and like your supplier my turnaround is very fast. Sometimes what I put in one day will go out the next. After a clear 10 samples only one sample a week is sent for testing, this seems rather a stupid idea.

Yes I agree my suppier is in the same boat and as stated before if one sample comes back positive (which all samples will) which 1lb pack contains the rest of the contaminated meat!

I have fed a raw diet to my dogs for over 20 years and a friend of mine (amongst others) has fed her dogs since 1937 on raw tripe and beef without any problems so why are the  buerucrats poking their noses in!!.    I do feel that we are being drawn more in to a controlled state - sorry for going off the subject a little but Im getting a little annoyed  so Ive now opened a bottle of wine to unwind!!!!

Hi
Just a quick question - have these rules been applicable for some time in mainland Europe? Is the UK being "forced" to comply with the rest of Europe ?

From what Christine has said, Spain is in the same position as the UK. I've not heard anything yet here, but my beef/tripe supplier has always said that "his" animals are fit for human consumption. He is even closed on Mondays as that is slaughter day and the meat is tested. I shall have to give him a ring on Tuesday, and I shall also pose the question on my German Barf forum.

That manufactured pet food is "healthier" than human food came out here during the BSE scare. It was found that pet food ingredients had already been tested for years and were of a much higher standard as human meat.

I hope everyone can get round this mess OK.

Carol, Germany

Hi Carol, I`m not sure if it`s in place here already or not. I just know that there aren`t any animal only food places like UK. They just don`t exist tho the butchers will give out at the end of the day any meat/carcasses/bones etc they won`t be able to sell the next day.

Christine, Spain.

You can plough through DEFRA site on this subject at  http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/by-prods/legislation.htm
Why was nobody aware that this was passed early in 2003 and should have come into force on 1st July 2003! We think the powers that be must have known what an uproar this would cause.
We think a group has been formed to fight this. Will post as soon as we have details

Thanks Pod will look now :)

Christine, Spain.

LOL I missed Pod's post and put you a link on. :D

Kath

The regulation is 1774 and it is 108 pages long, you need to look under Category 3 material.

Thanks Kath & D/Danes, found it. Just trawling thru it now

Christine, Spain.

To dozeydanes and all other small manufacturers - it sounds as if you're a few steps ahead of me here. After numerous phone calls have at last found someone at SERAD ( Scottish equivalent of DEFRA) who knew what I was on about. As we are the only licensed manufacturer in Scotland, our name had come up and it had been agreed that DAFS (Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland) would contact me to let me know that my licence granted under the 1999 legislation would be revoked on 1 January and enclosing an application to apply for a new licence under the 2003 legislation. Nothing happened. DAFS are now going to inspect my factory before the end of the week. He confirmed that even the human consumption products that I buy such as beef, lamb and fish become category 3 by-products as soon as they are sold to become petfood and fall under the same rules as tripe. He said that I was on the right tracks when I asked him if tripe would have to be sterilised but he would not discuss further over the phone. DAFS will let me know exactly where I stand but it doesn't sound encouraging. I have been in business for fifteen years and supply breeders throughout Scotland and the North of England via shops and wholesalers - I cannot believe that I am only now, and at my instigation, being contacted by the enforcing authorities. Do you know any more? I have two small children, have come through both BSE and Foot and Mouth without an income, and right now am facing the possibility that everything I have worked so hard for may disappear because of this legislation. 

Hi Campbell, my supplier (who is a personal friend of mine) has promised to get back to me in a couple of weeks when she has phoned  the PFMA to ascertain the outcome of their negotiations with DEFRA.  She did say that the PFMA had stated in their last conversation that sampling would be required but they are trying to sort out what level will be required since all raw meats contain the bugs.  I did notice in the dog paper that a petition was being organised - is it worth us starting one up?  At the moment my supplier has been told by her area Vet to continue as normal until a decision has been made so all she has to do at the moment is completing consignment/collection notes, labelling and keeping records of all deliveries made (ie name, address and date of delivery) which is something they do anyway. The one thing she will have a problem with is getting the customer to sign for the delivery!  She says that most of her customers are at work etc and they usually just deliver the meat and put it in their freezers for them, like she does with me.  I'll keep you posted and will speak to my supplier next week for an update. Let us know how your visit gets on and whether you can glean anything further from your area reps.  

PS
Did anyone read the article in Dog World the other week ?

Very interesting that the Pet Food Manufacturers Association has declined to comment on this whole issue ???

I know how you feel Campbell Foot and Mouth was bad enough but this is awful news. My DEFRA vet is a stickler for rules and regs but he was very sorry about this regulation and has given my a few weeks to decide what to do. The main problem is the first 10 working day samples if it was just the 1 sample a week that won't be so bad you could just take it out of a small pick up and therefore won't lose to much if it was positive. There are lots of rumours going around so it is hard to actually find out what is going on. If I hear anything I will post straight away.

Let us have details asap although if it has already been passed what can we do?

You know I don`t think it applies here as if theres no outlet then no need for it?
I`ll see if I can find out anything R/rott.

Thank goodness for the edit button eh RR? :D :D
Enjoy you`re wine ;)

Christine, Spain.

I rang my local abbatoir to order my supply of tripe yesterday and they can't let me have it - I need a licence from DEFRA.

DEFRA of course are not available or don't reply

Christine