I am really cross.  At the Pet training class that I help out a little at we have had an influx of new owners and dogs.

Two have me boiling mad.

The first is a nice couple who had a rescue crossbreed previously came with two dobermann pups from the same litter, one of each sex.  they know nothing about owning a large guarding working breed, let alone two of them.  I asked what they would do when the bitch came in season.  They plan to have her spayed at 6 months.  The bitchis somehat timid, and already the male is behaving protectively towards her.  With luck and training they will be all right.  they seemed totally surprised that having two pups mightr cause them more problems.

This week a father and daughter (about 12) came with two 16 week Boxer Brothers.  their only previous canine experience a Greyhound an a rescue Lurcher!  When I asked had the breeder not  thought they may have problems at puberty they replied that the breeder said they would naturally love each other being brought up together!!!

What are these breeders thinking of, certainly not the dogs best welfare.  it is the ideal recipe for one at least needing rehoming later.  then again they are probably not the kind of breeders that would take responsibility for the pups in need of homing.

This annoys me too.  This has happened in one of my breeds and the owners have had nothing but problems with them.  Luckily they are a loving family and they adore the dogs.  It is hard enough work as it is with one, never mind two.  Just don't understand why people still do this!!

Having enough hassle with one pup, think I would have to re-home the husband if I had more than one.

I find that I get a number of enquiries from people wanting to have two puppies at the same time, they seem to think it will make things easier for them!!! LOL

They are soon disillusioned by me but have had the odd one slam the phone down on me when I have told them no way!.

I have kept a dog and a bitch out of my last litter and by god if those people could just see the problems it can cause, and I know what I'm doing.

Jayne

Blimey Jayne, I've just had 2 litters & kept a dog & a bitch out of both...... not much hope for me then... ;)

Oh see you at LKA by the way

Geoff :)

p.s. have you sussed me out yet?

Aaaah but thing is Geoff, that when the owner is a bit loopy too, then you don't notice the loopy pups. lol

I hope yours are saner than my two, one leads the other into trouble all the time, and noisy I need ear plugs. lol

Yes see you at LKA, I'll know exactly who it is when this hunky man comes across and says hello to me, am I likely to faint from the shock. :-D :-D

Jayne

I can tell you exactly what they're thinking ...£££££££££
Archer

how are the dogs getting on together right now thou?? they fine.
Well at least there at the right place and with people who have brains to get them trained :D

Its not now that the problems will possibly arise, its later on.

Any breeder is totally irresponsible in my opinion to sell two pups to the same home.

Jayne

I am sorry but I dont agree with this, I have 2 bitches from the same litter 3 years old and also 2 dogs from another litter, 2 years old. I have had no problems at all with my dogs they all get on fine and they are all given individual training and attention. I agree that for some inexperienced owners this could be a problem but its not for experienced ones, I have had springers for 20 years and my lot are fine.

I wasn't talking about experienced people Sandie.

I was talking about owners such as Brainless was talking about.  But saying that I still wouldn't sell two pups from the same litter to anyone I didn't personally know had enough experience.

Mind I can remember a post of yours when you said:

I have 3 boy springers,2 litter brothers who are 17mths and the youngest 11mths, they have always got on really well until now, the youngest and one of the brothers have started fighting and its getting nasty.
How

Yes I remember but my experience paid off in sorting this out and I now have no problems with them so it was very short lived, we have always had bitches and this was the first time we had dogs so this was all new to me.

I have occasionally been asked to sell 2 puppies from the same litter & have always refused. All these breeders are thinking of is ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££. Do they offer to rehome one if things don't work out? I don't think so. We have 2 working sheepdog puppies at my training. I don't think the owners know what have hit them. I feel so sorry for them, they are trying their best, but owning a puppy should be a pleasure ( if hard work) not a trial.
To say they will automatically love each other is like saying the stud dog will love all his sons when they come to visit!
Sandie, we're not talking experienced owners here, we're talking novices - been taken for a ride - again.

I've always refused to sell two pups to one home.. It resulted in me keeping two instead, and I'd certainly not do it again out of choice! I was astonished how much harder it was to train them - and I'm used to multiple dogs.

Could it be that the breeder sold them on the say that they had training ?
Yea i know it will be a problem later i was just asking how they are now?

We meet two Golden Retriever brothers on walks, or we used to they have now rehomed the one. They couldn't cope it seems, they were a young couple at work all day and never had dogs before they were told two would keep each other company.  Things went well until they got to 18 months or so, it seems.

Karen 

At least they're in training classes - excellent place to start - and at least their owners have had dogs before.
I don't quite understand the "their only previous canine experience a Greyhound an a rescue Lurcher!" comment - they have dog experience and have started on the right foot by getting their new pups in class. ;)
I do however agree that two pups from the same litter, or even just two pups of the same age at all, could turn out to be a nightmare situation - but then again there are plenty of people to prove that it may not.  I personally wouldn't do it, but that's because I'd rather have a pair of adult rescue dogs ;)
At least it wasn't their first dog(s)! :)

I was a first-time dog owner 21 years ago and had 2 Cavalier brothers. I did this to avoid jealousy with my children, who were 11 and 13 at the time and I was a widow. It was very hard work but I managed and I adored them - they were very attached to me, more so I think than to each other, which is not what people say happens. Training, though, would certainly have been much easier if there had been 2 adults in the family. It's brought it all back coping with the current surprise litter of puppies! It's just so wonderful now having a supportive husband who is enjoying them so much - he doesn't even complain when they wake up at 5am....:) :) ;).
Cathy.

Well both Greyhounds, and a lot of Lurchers are rather lazy dogs at home.  They are usually quiet and placid.  Totally different from two boxer pups.

This family have never had pups before, and admit they are a totally different kettle of fish to the Sighthounds.

When I pointed out they would need individual training and excersie at least some of the time.  the father said, "Oh no they will have to go out together as with my work patterns won't have time to take them sepoerately".

I forsee one, or more likely both being up for rehoming by 8 months of age.  I may be wrong.

The couple with the dobes are really trying hard, and each of the couple is taking responsibility for one pup.  I can forsee trouble with them being surprised at the protectiveness of the male when he gets older, but think they will eventually make it.

Neither of these families when gently probed (didn't like to say that maybe they had not brought from the most reputable/responsible sources) there appears to be no breeder back-up.

In my view any breeder that sells two Dobermann pups to the same household is totally irresponsible and just wants to "get rid" of the pups or has no knowledge of the breed they own.  Two Doberpups going though adolescence together - what fun they could have (the dogs that is not the owners).

It can be done of course, either with a lot of very hard work and disciplined training on the part of the owners or by totally ignoring the dogs and letting them get on with it and picking up the pieces of them and your home when they have done.

Brainless, perhaps the couple would show you a pedigree of their pups?

Christine

Think a lot depends on the breed, if the owners have long experience in the breed, what sort of facilities the owner has. But would agree that it is not a good idea to have 2 pups at the same time even if they are different breeds from different breeders. It is a full time job sorting out 1 pup and making sure it understands that you are the one to turn to for guidance and help, with 2 this is far more that double the trouble and with some breeds I would have thought almost impossible to do a good job.

Then you have the problem when they reach puberty when you may have real trouble if you are not able to enforce your right to control them, the dogs may scrap but the bitches could kill each other. As for a mixed pair what is the point of having a pair from the same litter?

I'm with Sandie on this & I disagree that it is always irresponsible to sell littermates.

I have two littermates who get on very well together. :)

Of interest ? ......

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=147765#pid147765

That is fine, but in both these cases the woners obviously are inexpereinced with dual dog ownership and of these particular breeds especially.  both these breeds are strong guarding types, which are both often dominat, especially with other dogs.

As a breeder I wouldn't sell two pups, as it is I have at some point had to help with rehoming roughtly one pup per litter at various ages from adolescence to adulthood.  If I were to sell two pups to anyone other than a very experienced breed person then I would alsmost be certain to have a rehoming situation to deal with down the line.  Not ideal for the dog, the new owner, or me.

Interestingly re experienced owners.  I have been unlucky enough to have had two to rehome from longstanding owners of the breed.  In both cases the people involvged had forgotten how hard work a puppy is, and had aged in 12 to 14 years!  So even then past experience is no guarantee.

Hi Fablab

Although they are both dogs there is a lot of difference between Labradors and Dobermanns and in my not so humble (in this instance :)  ) opinion and experience there should be an absolute minimum of 12 and preferably at least 24 months in age between two in the same household

Christine

Boxers will go through a horrible adolescent stage (as most breeds do)
around 12-18 months.
At the moment my local breed rescue is saying they have an upsurge in
a number of males being signed over, most around the adolescent stage
and some even younger! :(  They can't cope with an unruly male that weighs in
at 5 stone and heavier which won't do as it's told and chews etc etc etc.
People just don't do their homework and neither do the breeders when it comes
to homing their pups.
All people see is a cute chocolate-box pup and most of the non-reputable
breeders want rid of pups as soon as possible. This is a recipe for disaster
mainly for the pups but also for the unsuspecting purchaser who has no breeder
back up when needed and then they have to make the heart-breaking decision
to home one or both on when they admit defeat.

Thankfully the dobe pups owners are being sensible with each taking responsibility for one
pup when training etc. But Dobes are just as crazy as Boxers....

<<But Dobes are just as crazy as Boxers....>>

I think Dobes may keep their feet on the floor just a fraction more than boxers? :D

Christine

Oooooohhhhhh I don't know there were some pretty bouncy ones at
the open show I was at, this Saturday just gone :D
But then one was winding my Abby up chewing at a pigs trotter.....
Abby wanted it, and was a really naughty girl trying all the tricks in the trade
of trying to creep along the floor to reach the Dobe and her trotter...
Thankfully I've had enough years experience of Boxers to realise what the
pesky sneaky varmints are upto................. :D
Thats why my girl particularly suits her show name of Ain't No Saint!!
Because she really isn't..............LOL But I still love her.
It's also hard when you have cats as partners in crime to the Boxers....
Pot Pourri, Cats and Boxers don't mix......and now the Pot Pourri is in the bin....
after Abby was sick a few times (and she never learns the hard way either)
Kind Regards

Try telling that to Cam, Kerioak!

I suspect one of the real problems is the number of people who take on animals and totally fail to do their homework. And we're not talking reading an entire library, but just spending a bit on time on the internet. If more people did that I'm sure a lot more dogs wouldn't end up being re-homed or abandoned because their owners would be better prepared for what might be in store.

Saying that, although I did lots of research before getting Cam, I didn't take all the advice I was given because I chose a male, rather than a female.  But I felt that although I hadn't had a large guarding breed before, I had 'transferable skills' that would stand me in good stead (equestrian background). I also had the time, money and inclination to make it work.

Even so, I have to admit that it's easier to hold a stallion that's had a whiff of in-season mare, than it is to hang on to Cam when he's full of beans. And Cam's very well behaved and I'm 5 foot 11.  But Lord knows how someone who hasn't put the time in, is small and inexperienced with dogs manages any large breed. It's a recipe for disaster.

Jo

Boxercrazy I totally agree with you.  I could not cope with another boxer (bradley is currently 7 months old) and I have alot of time for him but two blimey get the valume. 
I read and spoke to as many people as possible before the red and white wrinckly package entered into my home.  Im in contact with his breeder every month and send photo's.  Im also in contact with a behaviourist (just incase).  I attend training and due to go to agility in feb.  Through reading and talking to people Im so aware you have to have a network of support around you they have such strong charectors and can be a little difficult.  he still is the best thing to happen to me for a long time I adore him. we bounce together, laugh together and live life to the max  

Hiya I agree with the others, it's hard work having one puppy, I couldn't imagine anyone thinking that 2 would be less work
Diesel is great and he is so good, but I just know that there's no way I could train two puppies at the same time, I think that would be a nightmare. I'm sure there are some who have done it successfully, they must be name Saint........ :D
Sharon
XX

Obviously not met my lurchers then ;)
A lot of people generalise greys and lurchers in one of the following two ways...they're either:

1.  vicious hunting/racing dogs, need vast amounts of exercise, cant go with cats or kids

or

2.  Dead easy lazy not really classed as a dog as they're no "fun"

Both are wrong ;)
Lisa
xx

What?  Do you mean to say that Lurchers are calm hunting dogs that are okay when they are searching out lazy children and cats?? :D

I would imagine that Lurchers have as many characteristics as do the breeds that go into them

Christine

I DO AGREE WITH ALL THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE REPLIED BIT I THINK IT TOO IS UPTO THE PERSON BUYING THE PUPPY, YOU CANT TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY CAN AND CANT BUY, AND WHAT BREED TO BUY YOU CAN ONLY GIVE ADVICE AND HOPE THEY LISTEN TO IT, BUT I DO AGREE MOST BREEDER ARE IN FOR THE BIG $$$$$ AND QUICK! I NOW IM GOING TO HAVE HEAPS OF HATE MAIL BUT ITS TRUE, BREEDERS DONT CARE REALLY WHO THEIR PUPS GO TO AS LONG AS THEY HAVE THEIR MONEY THEIR HAPPY....BUT ON THE OTHER HAND IT SHOULD BE UP TO THE PERSON BUYING THE DOG OR PUPPY TO SAY NO THANKS I ONLY NEED ONE DOG AT A TIME!! AND TO FIND OUT A BIT ABOUT THE BREED BEFORE PURCHASING IT,

Hi Talara.  I am a breeder, and no I won't sya hateful things. :D

The kind of breeders you are refering to is what makes responsible breeders almost ashamed of the word.  it should mean someone who breeds to preserve the3ir breeds traits and caharacteristics for the next genearation because they love that breed.

The sad fact is there are those who view breeding puppies as the same as breeding poultry for the table or a crop like Potatoes!

Those breeders who take lifelong responsibility for their pups, just for sheer self interest if nothing else are as careful as can be that the homes they allow their puppies to go to are going to be happy and permanent, otherwise we have to pick up the pieces when things go wrong.

On average I have found about 1 pup in 10 returns to me (or I help mediate in a rehoming), sadly it is often the people one would least expect to have a problem that do.  I have made some wonderful freinds from the people who have pups from me, as it is like extended family, similar to when your children marry.

A responsible breeder is often on tenderhooks when their pups reach the teena stage, wondering if the next phonecall will be from someone who is having trouble coping.  I have had puppies booomerang anything from 5 months of age (the easier ones to rehabilitate and home) to fully mature adults (much harder to find right new home for).

Sadly many new well meaning puppy buyers just do not have the experince or knowledge to make ther right decison.

Brainless has put it very well -  and the only reason we might send you hate mail Telara, is if you continue to shout (type all in caps) at us :D

Responsible breeders try very hard to find good, permanent homes for their pups and I too generally find that about one pup per litter gets returned - frequently because of marital breakdowns.

Christine

The majority of breeders do care where there babies go to, it is the minority who don't, but as in everything else in life the odd few spoils it for the rest.  The majority of breeders wd. tell somebody that they are not suitable for their breed, I've even told one person that they wd be better off with a stuffed toy rather than a real dog, as they didn't want any dog hairs they didn't want any mess etc. etc.